If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)

Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.

Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Was the Lisbon treaty rigged?

samson09 · 2009-10-06 19:13:39

Watch the following clip and you'll see a guy walk out of Cork City Hall with a ballot box, he disappears into the distance. Maybe the box was empty, maybe it wasn't. But if one person could walk away with a ballot box, maybe others did too? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t764ACqXK3M

Comments

#52 13-10-2009 1:27am

Black Uhlan

Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭

Join Date: August 2009

Posts: 271

2009: Lisbon 2

meglome wrote: »

Again I don't seem to remember anyone being made do anything. How is having more democratic votes a problem? The people decide, if they want to vote No again they will, if they have changed their minds with the guarantees and the extra time then they will vote Yes, just like they did - by a large majority.

2002: Nice 2

meglome wrote: »

Well the Nice vote may be good for Europe and may or may not be good for Ireland depending on whom you talk to. But the way the whole thing has been run has not been good for democracy in this country. I hate to admit this but I almost agree with Typedef on many of his points on this topic. Inherently there has to be something wrong with rerunning a referendum within a year of a no vote just because the government doesn't like it. I appreciate that there were much weightier reasons this time but no one can tell me they wouldn't do it again over another issue.

Fianna Fail has lied to us, blatantly... and there is no justification for it. I’m not being naive here I know politicians lie a lot but they are not always caught out so badly.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=615852#post615852 - POST 3.

I respect your right to change your own opinion but that is a very puzzling 360 turn there. You could be debating yourself there...

0
#53 13-10-2009 2:16am

meglome

Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭

Join Date: August 2000

Posts: 7623

Black Uhlan wrote: »

2009: Lisbon 2

2002: Nice 2

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=615852#post615852 - POST 3.

I respect your right to change your own opinion but that is a very puzzling 360 turn there. You could be debating yourself there...

I'm not seeing the 360. I don't think the Lisbon campaign has been good for democracy in this country either but I'd imagine for different reasons than you might assume. The amount of lying and misrepresentation that went on was terrible and was even worse than Nice. I think the No campaign stooped to new lows but no one comes out clean.

The main issue I'd have with the Lisbon campaign is the government did a piss poor job of running the campaign, just like like they did for the Nice campaign. And not so strangely Fianna Fail were involved both times (who keeps voting for these people?). Of course the second Lisbon vote was run after the government got the guarantees (mostly on non-issues anyway). Plus we had more time for the very large chunk of people who said they voted No as they didn't know what was in the treaty to find out. I think the government's response to the first No vote was very democratic indeed.

And to be honest I've learned a lot more about representative democracy since then. Things that I should have known but I didn't. I've learned a lot more about the agendas of people calling for a No vote, claiming to be pro-EU and calling for a No vote at every single treaty. I also read the Lisbon treaty which I didn't do with Nice. It's good to learn.

Of course none of this changes the fact the Lisbon 1 No vote was out of kilter with what we've come to expect on EU votes. So logically if there is shenanigans that would be the most likely place for it.

Treaty|Year|Electorate|No vote|No as % of electorate
Accession|1973|1,783,604|211,891| 11.88%
SEA|1987|2,461,790|324,977| 13.2%
Maastricht|1992|2,542,840|448,655| 17.64%
Amsterdam|1998|2,747,088|578,070| 21.04%
Nice 1|2001|2,867,960|529,478| 18.46%
Nice 2|2002|2,923,918|534,887| 18.29%
Lisbon 1|2008|3,051,278|862,415| 28.26%
Lisbon 2|2009|3,078,132|594,606| 19.32%

0
#54 13-10-2009 9:02pm

parsi

Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭

Join Date: February 2002

Posts: 5598

Any update on a link to the law that was supposedly broken ?

A little supporting evidence would be handy...

0
#55 17-10-2009 6:16pm

parsi

Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭

Join Date: February 2002

Posts: 5598

I suppose we can take the lack of a link to the supposedly broken law as evidence that this is all a lie.

0
#56 17-10-2009 7:58pm

samson09

Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭

Join Date: March 2009

Posts: 393

parsi wrote: »

I suppose we can take the lack of a link to the supposedly broken law as evidence that this is all a lie.

You mean a statute/act right? If you REALLY have to know pm me just so I know you're serious. Then I'll do my best to find out for you because I'm honestly not sure myself what statute/act was broken but I know a man who might!;)

0
#57 17-10-2009 8:03pm

imme

Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭

Join Date: October 2009

Posts: 2981

a bit weird alright. why was someone videoing people outside City Hall anyway? It's pitch black in the film, at night? Counting was all over by 3pm at the latest. If this was in the morning ballot boxes are guarded by Gardai it would be tough for someone to get in there, let alone take a box away with them.

0
#58 17-10-2009 9:07pm

Diogenes

Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭

Join Date: July 2006

Posts: 2574

imme wrote: »

a bit weird alright. why was someone videoing people outside City Hall anyway? It's pitch black in the film, at night? Counting was all over by 3pm at the latest. If this was in the morning ballot boxes are guarded by Gardai it would be tough for someone to get in there, let alone take a box away with them.

You'd wonder why they didn't rig the vote the first time out.

0
#59 17-10-2009 11:10pm

parsi

Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭

Join Date: February 2002

Posts: 5598

samson09 wrote: »

You mean a statute/act right? If you REALLY have to know pm me just so I know you're serious. Then I'll do my best to find out for you because I'm honestly not sure myself what statute/act was broken but I know a man who might!;)

I'm new to this whole CT thing so bear with me - but why do I have to prove that I'm serious ?

There was a public posting and petition circulated which claimed that a law was broken in respect of the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

It seems that folk can't cite this law or will only cite it to folk who are "serious".

If I send a PM is the next step a meeting in a deserted carpark where there'll be someone with an orange-painted tinfoil-hat (instead of a red carnation) ?

0