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An open letter to Ireland

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  • 07-10-2009 1:16pm
    #1
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭


    Could it ever happen?


    To the Government, Employers, Unions and Workers of Ireland:

    As you are well aware, we are currently in the stickiest situation since sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun. The unemployment rate is spiking every second day with close to record numbers predicted to be out of work during 2010. Many homeowners are facing negative equity and finding it increasingly difficult to meet their monthly commitments.

    Funding for SME’s has all but dried up forcing pay cuts and more job losses and seriously impacting on our ability to generate an acceptable level of GNP. The banks operating here have serious issues with their capital strength and a collapse of one of our indigenous institutions would have drastic consequences for the economy. The Anglo Irish debacle has seriously impacted on how we are viewed by other countries and investors, it continues to swallow money at an exponential rate and yet no information is forthcoming to the public.

    Our political system is widely acknowledged as being prone to corruption and lax control, the John O’Donoghue and Rody Molloy scandals are indicative of the general perception of the standards of our public representatives. The public service is drastically in need of an overhaul and in many areas is creaking under the pressure exerted by the needs of the population, yet there is no buy-in from the sector or their representatives. Budgets still get squandered at the end of the fiscal year in an attempt to secure a similar budget for the following term.

    The cost of doing business in the country is prohibitive in many cases, we have seen recent large-scale hikes in the costs of household and business utilities whilst the ESB announces plans to break into the UK market in a bid to increase profitability and gives it workers a pay rise to boot. The energy regulator refuses to allow or force meaningful reductions in costs for fear of upsetting market balance and our communications infrastructure continues to degrade daily.

    The employees unions seem to have an agenda which is, by and large, divorced from the desires of their members. Union dues remain payable a boom time levels whist the heads draw six figure salaries and demand pay hikes against a background threat of industrial action. No union leader has, to date, taken a pay cut in solidarity with members and no fresh thinking has come from any side to date. Meanwhile, employers have reneged on agreed deals, downgraded pension arrangements and let staff go regardless in many cases unwilling to play their part for the public good.

    I am fully sure that we all have reasons why X, Y and X above have happened, why changes to this, that and the other cannot happen and why we are here in the first place, I am sure that each vested interest firmly believes that they are correct in choosing their stance and that they firmly believe that their suggestion is the best way out of the mire.

    To be honest, I don’t care.

    Please, please, please, for the sake of the country and the people who live here, stop the political posturing, stop the dogged pursuit of ideological ideals and stop the sniping and point scoring.

    Sit down and talk. Talk openly, talk often. At this precise moment in time, I don’t want to hear about the evils of capitalism or socialism; I don’t want to hear about the size of the NAMA ‘haircut’ or the bail out to the banks. I don’t want to hear about a dip in the profit margins for Q3. I don’t want to hear the million reasons why the public sector should take a cut nor the million and one reasons why the private sector should first. I don’t even really want to hear about John O’Donoghue or Rody Molloy because it is distracting all of us from doing the one thing we should be doing – solving the issue.

    Forget whether you are FF, FG, Labour, SF or the Greens. Forget whether you are a capitalist, a Marxist or just a racist. Be adults and help us all fix it. Do it today and tomorrow and every day until it’s fixed. Then have your post-mortem, then score your points, then claim how it was that your ideology fixed things in the face of adversity.

    If you can do this one thing, I promise faithfully I will go willingly along with whatever solution is proposed because I know that it will be a grown-up solution to a desperate problem. I have a feeling that I am not alone on this.

    Thank you.


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    who is the author?


  • Options
    #3
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    So basically lets ignore the herd of white elephants in the corner. that'll work.


  • Options
    #4
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    So basically lets ignore the herd of white elephants in the corner. that'll work.

    Not ignore it - just deal with it, sort out the blame afterwards.


  • Options
    #5
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Could it ever happen?

    it already has...in the 80s when National Agreements first happened

    the idea of workers, employers and Government coming together was considered unlikely then too...but it did happen

    tbh it has to happen...the only way to success is working together


  • Options
    #6
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    who is the author?

    t'was moi - I'm just getting sick & tired of the morass.


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    #7
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Could it ever happen?


    To the Government, Employers, Unions and Workers of Ireland:

    As you are well aware, we are currently in the stickiest situation since sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun. The unemployment rate is spiking every second day with close to record numbers predicted to be out of work during 2010. Many homeowners are facing negative equity and finding it increasingly difficult to meet their monthly commitments.

    Funding for SME’s has all but dried up forcing pay cuts and more job losses and seriously impacting on our ability to generate an acceptable level of GNP. The banks operating here have serious issues with their capital strength and a collapse of one of our indigenous institutions would have drastic consequences for the economy. The Anglo Irish debacle has seriously impacted on how we are viewed by other countries and investors, it continues to swallow money at an exponential rate and yet no information is forthcoming to the public.

    Our political system is widely acknowledged as being prone to corruption and lax control, the John O’Donoghue and Rody Molloy scandals are indicative of the general perception of the standards of our public representatives. The public service is drastically in need of an overhaul and in many areas is creaking under the pressure exerted by the needs of the population, yet there is no buy-in from the sector or their representatives. Budgets still get squandered at the end of the fiscal year in an attempt to secure a similar budget for the following term.

    The cost of doing business in the country is prohibitive in many cases, we have seen recent large-scale hikes in the costs of household and business utilities whilst the ESB announces plans to break into the UK market in a bid to increase profitability and gives it workers a pay rise to boot. The energy regulator refuses to allow or force meaningful reductions in costs for fear of upsetting market balance and our communications infrastructure continues to degrade daily.

    The employees unions seem to have an agenda which is, by and large, divorced from the desires of their members. Union dues remain payable a boom time levels whist the heads draw six figure salaries and demand pay hikes against a background threat of industrial action. No union leader has, to date, taken a pay cut in solidarity with members and no fresh thinking has come from any side to date. Meanwhile, employers have reneged on agreed deals, downgraded pension arrangements and let staff go regardless in many cases unwilling to play their part for the public good.

    I am fully sure that we all have reasons why X, Y and X above have happened, why changes to this, that and the other cannot happen and why we are here in the first place, I am sure that each vested interest firmly believes that they are correct in choosing their stance and that they firmly believe that their suggestion is the best way out of the mire.

    To be honest, I don’t care.

    Please, please, please, for the sake of the country and the people who live here, stop the political posturing, stop the dogged pursuit of ideological ideals and stop the sniping and point scoring.

    Sit down and talk. Talk openly, talk often. At this precise moment in time, I don’t want to hear about the evils of capitalism or socialism; I don’t want to hear about the size of the NAMA ‘haircut’ or the bail out to the banks. I don’t want to hear about a dip in the profit margins for Q3. I don’t want to hear the million reasons why the public sector should take a cut nor the million and one reasons why the private sector should first. I don’t even really want to hear about John O’Donoghue or Rody Molloy because it is distracting all of us from doing the one thing we should be doing – solving the issue.

    Forget whether you are FF, FG, Labour, SF or the Greens. Forget whether you are a capitalist, a Marxist or just a racist. Be adults and help us all fix it. Do it today and tomorrow and every day until it’s fixed. Then have your post-mortem, then score your points, then claim how it was that your ideology fixed things in the face of adversity.

    If you can do this one thing, I promise faithfully I will go willingly along with whatever solution is proposed because I know that it will be a grown-up solution to a desperate problem. I have a feeling that I am not alone on this.

    Thank you.

    Unfortunately this presupposes we can find selfless politicians.


  • Options
    #8
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    Unfortunately this presupposes we can find selfless politicians.

    and union leaders, and employers, and citizens ... we live in hope.


  • Options
    #9
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Long Onion wrote: »
    and union leaders, and employers, and citizens ... we live in hope.

    "selfless" employers ? What do you suggest "employers" do ? Many are struggling to just survive and keep paying the bank loans + bills as they arrive in ( bills which are bigger in Ireland than in many other countries ). ?


  • Options
    #10
    StealthRolex
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    one is asking too much methinks. would a revolution not be quicker and less bloody?


  • Options
    #11
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Not ignore it - just deal with it, sort out the blame afterwards.

    If you've arrived at an unsavory place, as we most certainly have, then we need to ask ourselves who brought us here. What we need is convincing leadership and until we get it, here we are and here we will remain.


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    #12
    puffdragon
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭puffdragon


    The first move is to get rid of the bad politicians,observe them find out what they are doing ,keep posting, e-mailing, texting, preferably your politicians,we don't want an insurrection but a quiet revolution would help.

    http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/programmes/6/the-right-hook.html

    In the middle of the programme he talks to ordinary people ,and makes a few comments himself with particular reference to 1916 and where has our pride gone, you never know maybe he'll goad some one into doing something!!


  • Options
    #13
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Please, please, please, for the sake of the country and the people who live here, stop the political posturing, stop the dogged pursuit of ideological ideals and stop the sniping and point scoring.

    I don't get this bit at all. In fact I don't get any of the letter really, but in particaular I don't get the above sentence relating to "ideological ideals"...

    Should we not be aspiring to a set of social ideals that delivers an excellent set of services to the public??? Should we not be talking about how we can build an all inclusive health service that works for all the Irish people, because at the moment, we have a two tiered health service, where if you can pay for private insurance, you have a health service and if you cannot pay, you are vunerable, and this is after a ten year economic boom.

    Should we not be talking about an all inclusive education system, because guess what, at the moment, we have a two tiered education system, again, after ten years of an economic boom...

    To say we should not pursue ideals and discuss what those ideals might be, I feel is to have no vision whatsoever.


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    #14
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I don't get this bit at all. In fact I don't get any of the letter really, but in particaular I don't get the above sentence relating to "ideological ideals"...

    Should we not be aspiring to a set of social ideals that delivers an excellent set of services to the public??? Should we not be talking about how we can build an all inclusive health service that works for all the Irish people, because at the moment, we have a two tiered health service, where if you can pay for private insurance, you have a health service and if you cannot pay, you are vunerable, and this is after a ten year economic boom.

    Should we not be talking about an all inclusive education system, because guess what, at the moment, we have a two tiered education system, again, after ten years of an economic boom...

    To say we should not pursue ideals and discuss what those ideals might be, I feel is to have no vision whatsoever.



    i have health insurance and tbh , the advantages are not at all clearly defined , we dont have a private health service in any real sense of the word , the hse as it presently operates exists 1st and foremost to serve those who workin within it , i would like to see the hse scrapped and the whole system privatised properly , let everyone buy insurance , our social wellfare is of such a generous nature , this is no reason whatsover why anyone cant afford to have insurance , present system is crippled by politics and union interferance


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    #15
    MrMicra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭MrMicra


    is it the pursuit of blame to want corruption punished? this no blame stuff is just a fianna fail apologia.


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    #16
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I don't get this bit at all. In fact I don't get any of the letter really, but in particaular I don't get the above sentence relating to "ideological ideals"...

    Should we not be aspiring to a set of social ideals that delivers an excellent set of services to the public??? Should we not be talking about how we can build an all inclusive health service that works for all the Irish people, because at the moment, we have a two tiered health service, where if you can pay for private insurance, you have a health service and if you cannot pay, you are vunerable, and this is after a ten year economic boom.

    Should we not be talking about an all inclusive education system, because guess what, at the moment, we have a two tiered education system, again, after ten years of an economic boom...

    To say we should not pursue ideals and discuss what those ideals might be, I feel is to have no vision whatsoever.

    I am not saying that any of the above is a bad idea, I suppose my point is that we should just park it. All the posturing and point scoring is deflecting attention away from finding a solution to the immediate issue at hand.

    Forget the he said, she said stuff, sit down like adults and agree a solution. Deal with the other issues afterwards. Post mortems are not a good idea when the patient is still living (no matter how ill they may be).


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    #17
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Won't happen Long Onion.

    As Riskymove stated - "tbh it has to happen...the only way to success is working together".

    It will never happen as there is no dose of realism in the other side as evidenced here and for example in that Frontline program.


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    #18
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    MrMicra wrote: »
    is it the pursuit of blame to want corruption punished? this no blame stuff is just a fianna fail apologia.

    I disagree with you entirely - I am no supporter of FF nor have I ever been. I am not advocating a no blame policy, those who were the architects of the current crisis deserve their just rewards. What I am against is the fact that the stakeholders in this country are too busy trying to apportion blame and score points, to actually sttempt to solve the issues in any meaningful way.

    The blame can come afterwards.


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    #19
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    irish_bob wrote: »
    i have health insurance and tbh , the advantages are not at all clearly defined , we dont have a private health service in any real sense of the word , the hse as it presently operates exists 1st and foremost to serve those who workin within it , i would like to see the hse scrapped and the whole system privatised properly , let everyone buy insurance , our social wellfare is of such a generous nature , this is no reason whatsover why anyone cant afford to have insurance , present system is crippled by politics and union interferance

    You want private companies to make massive profits off the back off peoples misery?? HSE needs streamlining, but privatising healthcare is the stuff of nightmares. What about someone who can't afford it, or who the insurance companies refuse to quote for? What would you say, tough luck?
    I, for one, think in civilised society we should all have access to healthcare.


  • Options
    #20
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Forget the he said, she said stuff, sit down like adults and agree a solution. Deal with the other issues afterwards. Post mortems are not a good idea when the patient is still living (no matter how ill they may be).

    You want to let the incompetant surgeon have another attempt to further butcher the almost dead patient? No thanks.

    To echo what was said above, waiting until after the crisis is done to 'play the blame game' is as likely to worsen the problems as it is to solve them. Those who have horrendously mismanaged the country should not have a hand in setting it right, we cannot trust them or their real motives.


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    #21
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    I was agreeing with a lot of what you said long onion til I read this http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1008/breaking29.htm
    and it just made my blood boil. it's not even about taking the blame, it's about recognising the crisis we're in, and leading by example for once. Of course it won't solve the crisis, but it'll be a start and at least it would show some bloody solidarity.


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    #22
    StealthRolex
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    dearg lady wrote: »
    I was agreeing with a lot of what you said long onion til I read this http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1008/breaking29.htm
    and it just made my blood boil. it's not even about taking the blame, it's about recognising the crisis we're in, and leading by example for once. Of course it won't solve the crisis, but it'll be a start and at least it would show some bloody solidarity.

    If you read between the lines the attitude from on high seems to be the crisis is so bad that their six figure salaries and expense claims are but a drop in the ocaen so they should be glossed over.

    Shower of 7ck1ng arrogant b@st@4d5


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    #23
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    StealthRolex wrote: »
    If you read between the lines the attitude from on high seems to be the crisis is so bad that their six figure salaries and expense claims are but a drop in the ocaen so they should be glossed over.

    Shower of 7ck1ng arrogant b@st@4d5

    I know yeah, I'm so annoyed now!! I really hope they don't get way with glossing over this, it's an absolute disgrace.


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    #24
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    dearg lady wrote: »
    I know yeah, I'm so annoyed now!! I really hope they don't get way with glossing over this, it's an absolute disgrace.
    Irish Times wrote:
    Mr Lenihan said Ireland is facing “a very serious fiscal crisis” and "the abolition of Oireachtas expenses wouldn’t solve that crisis in any degree".

    While he admitted the issue of TD expenses was important he said people need to focus “on the real issues” facing the country.

    “We have to have trust and transparency in relation to them, that will be done and it will be done in a short time frame,” Mr Lenihan said

    Lol - and some people are happy to keep these financial incompetents in office while they do their best to sort out the country's problems (if they find the time to get their snouts out of the trough) - what a horrible, horrible joke.


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    #25
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    look if we are posing the question of who is to blame, it is the government 100%. Yeah the unions, joe soap, the bankers and developers definetly etc shoulder some of the blame, but the government is the boss and the boss lives and dies by his decision! Everyone here neglects and passes responsibility this is the problem! So do I blame the unions for pushing what they could get for? no. But now that savings have to be made, I believe that Public Sector workers are the only ones in anyway capable of taking another hit. Regarding the budget it will be fascinating to see what happens. 40% of workers here pay no tax at all, surely this is unsustainable. I would hit the lower paid PS workers with either no or very little wage decrease, maybe 5%. Its toward the middle and top I would go, where the workers decisions arent either pay the mortgage or bills this month, but what car will I upgrade to, what holiday location this year, will I buy another investment property!


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    #26
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    joe public gets screwed all the time,no doubt he will get taxed again to make up for the public pay/tax,then if he loses his job,he wont get a lovely pension or a fas pay off,he be on the dole,and the fact that stories are emergeing that the goverment could be cutting it again at christmas when theres so many people who depend on it badly is just targeting the vunerable again..


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    #27
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    dearg lady wrote: »
    I was agreeing with a lot of what you said long onion til I read this http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1008/breaking29.htm
    and it just made my blood boil. it's not even about taking the blame, it's about recognising the crisis we're in, and leading by example for once. Of course it won't solve the crisis, but it'll be a start and at least it would show some bloody solidarity.

    they could change it,but they wont,its simple,they love it,stories are emergeing again that the vunerable people,those whos familes are on dole could be getting cut again at christmas budget,and why cant the bloody goverment,since its desperate for revenue,tax artists like they do in britain


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    #28
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    look if we are posing the question of who is to blame, it is the government 100%. Yeah the unions, joe soap, the bankers and developers definetly etc shoulder some of the blame, but the government is the boss and the boss lives and dies by his decision! Everyone here neglects and passes responsibility this is the problem! So do I blame the unions for pushing what they could get for? no. But now that savings have to be made, I believe that Public Sector workers are the only ones in anyway capable of taking another hit. Regarding the budget it will be fascinating to see what happens. 40% of workers here pay no tax at all, surely this is unsustainable. I would hit the lower paid PS workers with either no or very little wage decrease, maybe 5%. Its toward the middle and top I would go, where the workers decisions arent either pay the mortgage or bills this month, but what car will I upgrade to, what holiday location this year, will I buy another investment property!

    It's not entirely the governments fault we got where we are but it is entirely the governments fault for not cooling the economy earlier and allowing greed and consumerism to run rife throughout the government, public services and the rest of the country. With leadership like that can we really apportion blame to a few?

    If cheap credit fueled the property boom do you blame the banks for issuing the cheap credit, the developers for hiking the property prices or the mortgage holders for being silly enough to buy into a rising market heading for a crash?

    There's a lot more than the government guilty - the banks system for providing cheap credit and the consumer system for using that credit unwisely.

    Overspending home buyers were the oxygen in the property boom, cheap credit the fuel and developers and politicians fanned the flames.

    So lets start with the fannies


  • Options
    #29
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Long Onion wrote: »
    The blame can come afterwards.
    These aren't really talented people who just got complacent and fell asleep at the wheel though. These are for the most part bumbling incompetents. We don't want or need them leading us down whatever garden path they whimsied their way into thinking was a good idea this month.


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