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Lisbon - a fraudulent referendum?
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07-10-2009 4:06pm#1Petition to have the Lisbon results removed due to rigging the vote and they have applied to make criminal case
http://www.gopetition.com/online/31224.html a petition has been set up, if you suspect lisbon was rigged please sign it.
They outline all the ways the yes vote was done with all methods of stuffing the ballot boxxes with yes votes
Derry
<MOD>This thread has been reopened as a thread for claims that the Lisbon Treaty vote was rigged - include your petitions, Youtube videos, etc here.</MOD>0
Comments
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Read the Forum Charter, please - this isn't a noticeboard for petitions.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
Why the Lisbon Treaty must NOT be ratified.
Under Irish law, ballot boxes are required to be delivered by members of the Gardai to the polling stations at 7:00 am on the date the election takes place.
This legal requirement applies to ALL polling in Ireland, whether elections or referendums.
On this occasion, however, the ballot boxes were delivered to the private residences of the polling/Returning Officers, 48 hours prior to the Referendum.
A number of honest Returning Officers formally objected to this BREACH OF PROCEDURE, and to the concomitant prospective breach of security, let alone of the electoral legislation.
We understand that such objections were officially dismissed out of hand on the spurious and diversionary grounds that the ballot boxes possessed no commercial value, so it would be in nobody’s commercial interest to steal them.
The central issue – that since the Irish ballot boxes were delivered 48 hours early they could be ‘stuffed’ with YES votes by returning officers, as routinely happens in places like the former Soviet Republic of Georgia – was of course not addressed.
The Irish voters were given pencils to make their mark on the ballot, even though all Irish electoral ballots are supposed to be filled with black pen.
Almost nobody was asked for any form of ID or information at the polling stations.
The ballot boxes were left unattended and moved about by many people without question.
At least one box in Cork was removed from the count centre by an unknown individual as shown in the attached video.
Many foreign nationals and others who were not legally entitled to vote voted in this Referendum. Irish Times article “Gardai to investigate suspected vote fraud”, shows seven voters registered to an empty house.
It follows that, given that the local electoral law was flouted, THE OUTCOME OF THE IRISH REFERENDUM IS FRAUDULENT AND MUST IMMEDIATELY BE DECLARED NULL AND VOID.
II.
1) The intervention of the European Commission, entailing massive expenditure of money to influence Irish opinion towards a Yes, the running of a web-site and the issuing of statements that sought to counter No-side arguments, and the advocacy of a Yes vote by Commission President Barroso and other Commissioners and their staffs during visits to Ireland. This is unlawful under European law, as the Commission has no function in relation to the ratification of new Treaties, something that is exclusively a matter for the Member States under their own constitutional procedures;
2) The part funding of the posters and press advertising of most of Ireland’s Yes-side political parties by their sister parties in the European Parliament, even though it is illegal under Irish law to receive donations from sources outside the country in a referendum and even though, under European law, money provided by the European Parliament to cross-national political parties is supposed to be confined to informational-type material and to avoid partisan advocacy;
3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material - steps that were in breach of the 1995 Irish Supreme Court judgment in McKenna that it is unconstitutional of the Government to use public funds to seek to obtain a particular result in a referendum;
4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act that established it of explaining to citizens how the proposed constitutional amendment and its text would affect the Irish Constitution. Instead the Commission’s Chairman, Judge Frank Clarke, turned the Commission into an arm of Government propaganda, while the judge indulged himself in various “solo-runs” on radio and in the newspapers, giving several erroneous explanations of provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, even though this was quite beyond his powers under the Act;
5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.
6) Breaches by the Irish broadcast media of their obligation under the Broadcasting Acts to be fair to all interests concerned in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate. Newstalk 106, owned by Mr Denis O’Brien, a committed supporter of the Yes side, was quite shameless in its partisanship on its current affairs programmes.
Source: http://info-wars.org/2009/10/06/criminal-complaint-against-the-referendum-commission-returning-officers-jose-manuel-barroso-the-european-commission-brian-cowen-and-subsequent-persons-involved-in-the-lisbon-treaty-campaign/
Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to all of this?0 -
The referendum is over, stop complaining about the result.0
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Do you have any evidence for this other than a conspiracy website?0
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The people have voted , it's time to give up.
If we go on objecting we risk look like the yes camp did last time.0 -
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We understand that such objections were officially dismissed out of hand on the spurious and diversionary grounds that the ballot boxes possessed no commercial value, so it would be in nobody’s commercial interest to steal them.
Are you suggesting the Yes side sprayed the boxes with a special chemical that erased all No votes and replaced them with Yes votes the night before?The central issue – that since the Irish ballot boxes were delivered 48 hours early they could be ‘stuffed’ with YES votes by returning officers, as routinely happens in places like the former Soviet Republic of Georgia – was of course not addressed.
You do realize that EVERY box has an "attendance list" associated with it. Someones name is ticked off when they arrive, and the number of ballots must correspond to this list. So they couldn't add ballots before the vote. Of course your going to state that they ticked for people who never showed up, after the vote ended. "They" being the electoral workers who are just making a days wage. A big conspiracy indeed.The Irish voters were given pencils to make their mark on the ballot, even though all Irish electoral ballots are supposed to be filled with black pen
Ive voted 3 times and every time its been pencil. What difference does it make?Almost nobody was asked for any form of ID or information at the polling stations.
Ive voted 3 times and Ive never been asked. What difference does it make?It follows that, given that the local electoral law was flouted, THE OUTCOME OF THE IRISH REFERENDUM IS FRAUDULENT AND MUST IMMEDIATELY BE DECLARED NULL AND VOID.
Out of curiosity, would you be saying this if it was a No?0 -
Why the Lisbon Treaty must NOT be ratified.
Under Irish law, ballot boxes are required to be delivered by members of the Gardai to the polling stations at 7:00 am on the date the election takes place.
This legal requirement applies to ALL polling in Ireland, whether elections or referendums.
On this occasion, however, the ballot boxes were delivered to the private residences of the polling/Returning Officers, 48 hours prior to the Referendum.
A number of honest Returning Officers formally objected to this BREACH OF PROCEDURE, and to the concomitant prospective breach of security, let alone of the electoral legislation.
We understand that such objections were officially dismissed out of hand on the spurious and diversionary grounds that the ballot boxes possessed no commercial value, so it would be in nobody’s commercial interest to steal them.
The central issue – that since the Irish ballot boxes were delivered 48 hours early they could be ‘stuffed’ with YES votes by returning officers, as routinely happens in places like the former Soviet Republic of Georgia – was of course not addressed.
The Irish voters were given pencils to make their mark on the ballot, even though all Irish electoral ballots are supposed to be filled with black pen.
Almost nobody was asked for any form of ID or information at the polling stations.
The ballot boxes were left unattended and moved about by many people without question.
At least one box in Cork was removed from the count centre by an unknown individual as shown in the attached video.
Many foreign nationals and others who were not legally entitled to vote voted in this Referendum. Irish Times article “Gardai to investigate suspected vote fraud”, shows seven voters registered to an empty house.
It follows that, given that the local electoral law was flouted, THE OUTCOME OF THE IRISH REFERENDUM IS FRAUDULENT AND MUST IMMEDIATELY BE DECLARED NULL AND VOID.
II.
1) The intervention of the European Commission, entailing massive expenditure of money to influence Irish opinion towards a Yes, the running of a web-site and the issuing of statements that sought to counter No-side arguments, and the advocacy of a Yes vote by Commission President Barroso and other Commissioners and their staffs during visits to Ireland. This is unlawful under European law, as the Commission has no function in relation to the ratification of new Treaties, something that is exclusively a matter for the Member States under their own constitutional procedures;
2) The part funding of the posters and press advertising of most of Ireland’s Yes-side political parties by their sister parties in the European Parliament, even though it is illegal under Irish law to receive donations from sources outside the country in a referendum and even though, under European law, money provided by the European Parliament to cross-national political parties is supposed to be confined to informational-type material and to avoid partisan advocacy;
3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material - steps that were in breach of the 1995 Irish Supreme Court judgment in McKenna that it is unconstitutional of the Government to use public funds to seek to obtain a particular result in a referendum;
4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act that established it of explaining to citizens how the proposed constitutional amendment and its text would affect the Irish Constitution. Instead the Commission’s Chairman, Judge Frank Clarke, turned the Commission into an arm of Government propaganda, while the judge indulged himself in various “solo-runs” on radio and in the newspapers, giving several erroneous explanations of provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, even though this was quite beyond his powers under the Act;
5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.
6) Breaches by the Irish broadcast media of their obligation under the Broadcasting Acts to be fair to all interests concerned in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate. Newstalk 106, owned by Mr Denis O’Brien, a committed supporter of the Yes side, was quite shameless in its partisanship on its current affairs programmes.
Source: http://info-wars.org/2009/10/06/criminal-complaint-against-the-referendum-commission-returning-officers-jose-manuel-barroso-the-european-commission-brian-cowen-and-subsequent-persons-involved-in-the-lisbon-treaty-campaign/
Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to all of this?
BOOOOR-RING!0 -
You are of course taking into account the boxes that are always dispatched early to the islands?0
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The video is a bit of a wtf alright.
In my polling station, there was a Garda but I was there about 25 seconds so dunno if he was just there then or what. I wasn't asked for ID though which is a but crazy because that means you could potentially vote loads of times if you got peoples cards.0 -
Michael Jackon's also alive btw:
Maybe the same guy who took the ballot box is driving the van?0 -
Epic Tissue wrote: »I wasn't asked for ID though which is a but crazy because that means you could potentially vote loads of times if you got peoples cards.
I've never been asked for ID, most people aren't. It only becomes an issue when the vote doesn't go the way certain people want0 -
On this occasion, however, the ballot boxes were delivered to the private residences of the polling/Returning Officers, 48 hours prior to the Referendum.
Well done for showing a complete lack of understanding of voting procedure in Ireland. For somebody who seems to love the 'truth' you don't have the knowledge to back it up.
The ballot boxes could not, did you read that, could NOT have been stuffed the night before, on the day or indeed after the vote.
When the ballot boxes arrive at the polling station they are not sealed and they are not empty. They contain a number of items including 1) Ballot papers (500 was in my box, not sure if thats standard or not) 2) Envelopes and packaging to contain all the relevent documentation that ensures accountability. 3) The register of electors for that polling box 4) Posters that state the text of the amendment that would be inserted into the Constitution and information about the constituency including returning officer.
The Presiding Officer and/or the Poll Clerk open the box and remove these items. The box is now empty. The box is then sealed with 3 cable ties. At the end of the day the slot where ballot papers are put is then closed and sealed with a cable tie. All relevant documents including the ballot paper stubs, marked register of electors, unused ballot papers, a form that states how many people voted in that room etc. These are then put into their respective envelopes and sealed, usually with either tape or wax to ensue that they are not opened. All items are then parceled up in brown paper and sealed with tape. The station I was in this parcel was then tied to the top of the box, but that doesn't seem to happen in all stations.
ID checks are random. I think the guideline is every 5 or so people, but it usually slips a bit. Just because you've never been asked for ID doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Frankly, I don't buy the video at all. I'll just quote one of my other posts.I love the fact that this guy just 'happened' to be recording the people carrying in the ballot boxes and when he spotted somebody carrying a box out of the count centre and he stood well back and made his little video while muttering to himself.
He was so outraged at this subversion of democracy that he stood still before going inside to have a look around.
He had 3 options:
1) Follow the guy and see where he was going or get a reg plate if he got into a car.
2) Stop the guy and ask him what was he doing
3) Do nothing, record it, speak in hushed tones and put the video up on youtube asap.
He went for 3. The guy did the least useful thing possible in the situation. He could have sorted the issue out very quickly by using option 1 or 2. But no, that wouldn't have made a good youtube video would it? That wouldn't add fuel to the fire of a conspiracy now would it?
Which begs the question, why did he do nothing?
Also, on the pencil thing. I've always voted with a pencil. And anybody who has ever used a pencil will know that you can erase the mark if you want, but an imprint will still be there. Anyone with a resonably functional brain will be able to spot it.0 -
The people have voted , it's time to give up.
If we go on objecting we risk look like the yes camp did last time.
Major democratic abuses have occured, with numerous European and Irish laws getting broken in the process. I don't accept the result of this referendum, it stinks of corruption and the political bullying and scaremongering was blatant from the start.0 -
Petition to have the Lisbon results removed due to rigging the vote and they have applied to make criminal case
http://www.gopetition.com/online/31224.html a petition has been set up, if you suspect lisbon was rigged please sign it.
They outline all the ways the yes vote was done with all methods of stuffing the ballot boxxes with yes votes
Derry
<MOD>This thread has been reopened as a thread for claims that the Lisbon Treaty vote was rigged - include your petitions, Youtube videos, etc here.</MOD>
I'd believe it was possible if you can show me one case where there was two voting cards for the same person in the box. You'd have to stuff the box with names from the area. And then somehow prevent those people from casting their legitimate votes.0 -
Epic Tissue wrote: »The video is a bit of a wtf alright.
In my polling station, there was a Garda but I was there about 25 seconds so dunno if he was just there then or what. I wasn't asked for ID though which is a but crazy because that means you could potentially vote loads of times if you got peoples cards.
Except that it's the same people manning the polling stations all day. Indeed, it's usually the same people manning the posting stations every time - my wife used to do it, and her mother still does. The guys manning my polling station have been the same for the last 4 votes now, so I no longer need to show ID.
The scale of the fraud necessary to produce a result like that of the referendum would require the involvement of hundreds, if not thousands of people, as well as incredible organisation, planning, and logistics...of course, that's true of the 9/11 conspiracy theory, the Moon hoax conspiracy, the AGW conspiracy, the fluoridation conspiracy...so I confidently expect this one to run and run.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
I heard Brian Cowen personally voted in hundreds of polling stations each time wearing a different mask :eek:0
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I noticed that the title of the thread has been changed to "Lisbon-voting fraud?"
Could I just remind people this isnt only about the the ballot boxes, its also about the following, which no one seems to be addressing:
1) The intervention of the European Commission, entailing massive expenditure of money to influence Irish opinion towards a Yes, the running of a web-site and the issuing of statements that sought to counter No-side arguments, and the advocacy of a Yes vote by Commission President Barroso and other Commissioners and their staffs during visits to Ireland. This is unlawful under European law, as the Commission has no function in relation to the ratification of new Treaties, something that is exclusively a matter for the Member States under their own constitutional procedures;
2) The part funding of the posters and press advertising of most of Ireland’s Yes-side political parties by their sister parties in the European Parliament, even though it is illegal under Irish law to receive donations from sources outside the country in a referendum and even though, under European law, money provided by the European Parliament to cross-national political parties is supposed to be confined to informational-type material and to avoid partisan advocacy;
3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material - steps that were in breach of the 1995 Irish Supreme Court judgment in McKenna that it is unconstitutional of the Government to use public funds to seek to obtain a particular result in a referendum;
4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act that established it of explaining to citizens how the proposed constitutional amendment and its text would affect the Irish Constitution. Instead the Commission’s Chairman, Judge Frank Clarke, turned the Commission into an arm of Government propaganda, while the judge indulged himself in various “solo-runs” on radio and in the newspapers, giving several erroneous explanations of provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, even though this was quite beyond his powers under the Act;
5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.
6) Breaches by the Irish broadcast media of their obligation under the Broadcasting Acts to be fair to all interests concerned in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate. Newstalk 106, owned by Mr Denis O’Brien, a committed supporter of the Yes side, was quite shameless in its partisanship on its current affairs programmes.0 -
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I noticed that the title of the thread has been changed to "Lisbon-voting fraud?"
Could I just remind people this isnt only about the the ballot boxes, its also about the following, which no one seems to be addressing:
1) The intervention of the European Commission, entailing massive expenditure of money to influence Irish opinion towards a Yes, the running of a web-site and the issuing of statements that sought to counter No-side arguments, and the advocacy of a Yes vote by Commission President Barroso and other Commissioners and their staffs during visits to Ireland. This is unlawful under European law, as the Commission has no function in relation to the ratification of new Treaties, something that is exclusively a matter for the Member States under their own constitutional procedures;
2) The part funding of the posters and press advertising of most of Ireland’s Yes-side political parties by their sister parties in the European Parliament, even though it is illegal under Irish law to receive donations from sources outside the country in a referendum and even though, under European law, money provided by the European Parliament to cross-national political parties is supposed to be confined to informational-type material and to avoid partisan advocacy;
3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material - steps that were in breach of the 1995 Irish Supreme Court judgment in McKenna that it is unconstitutional of the Government to use public funds to seek to obtain a particular result in a referendum;
4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act that established it of explaining to citizens how the proposed constitutional amendment and its text would affect the Irish Constitution. Instead the Commission’s Chairman, Judge Frank Clarke, turned the Commission into an arm of Government propaganda, while the judge indulged himself in various “solo-runs” on radio and in the newspapers, giving several erroneous explanations of provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, even though this was quite beyond his powers under the Act;
5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.
6) Breaches by the Irish broadcast media of their obligation under the Broadcasting Acts to be fair to all interests concerned in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate. Newstalk 106, owned by Mr Denis O’Brien, a committed supporter of the Yes side, was quite shameless in its partisanship on its current affairs programmes.
Changed the thread title to "Lisbon - a fraudulent referendum?" to cover those claims.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
Yeah, sure why rig it so that it's a win on 52-48 when you can rig it to be 67-33!?
Now that you mention it, I did notice a peculiar amount of lizards lingering around the voting centre that day, those conniving little bastards must have been taking an eraser to everyone's "No" votes and changing them to a Yes.0 -
This is unlawful under European law, as the Commission has no function in relation to the ratification of new Treaties, something that is exclusively a matter for the Member States under their own constitutional procedures;
Why are you bitching to us? If its such a travesty why dont you bring them to court?2) The part funding of the posters and press advertising of most of Ireland’s Yes-side political parties by their sister parties in the European Parliament,
The No side did this as well. VOTE NO - SINN FEIN GUE/NGL3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material
Were these document biased?4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act
I dont care about your woolly statements, I want to hear of specific cases where this happened.5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.
Possibly?? How so? Are you making up law as you go?0 -
Evidence? Are you talking about the informational documents which didn't "seek" any particular result in any way?3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material - steps that were in breach of the 1995 Irish Supreme Court judgment in McKenna that it is unconstitutional of the Government to use public funds to seek to obtain a particular result in a referendum;
Complete nonsense. Refcom carried out a perfectly unbiased and comprehensive job in accordance with their obligations. Twice. Funny how the text of refcom's information was identical to that at the first referendum (except for the legal guarantees), yet you didn't make this claim after the first referendum.4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act that established it of explaining to citizens how the proposed constitutional amendment and its text would affect the Irish Constitution. Instead the Commission’s Chairman, Judge Frank Clarke, turned the Commission into an arm of Government propaganda, while the judge indulged himself in various “solo-runs” on radio and in the newspapers, giving several erroneous explanations of provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, even though this was quite beyond his powers under the Act;
Issues for the companies involved, maybe, if you can prove so. But it doesn't make the referendum any less legal or democratic.5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.
That's funny, because i distinctly got the impression that Newstalk were being very lenient on the No side, to the point where I was convinced they were biased towards the No side. Funny how you sometimes only hear what you want to hear, isn't it?6) Breaches by the Irish broadcast media of their obligation under the Broadcasting Acts to be fair to all interests concerned in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate. Newstalk 106, owned by Mr Denis O’Brien, a committed supporter of the Yes side, was quite shameless in its partisanship on its current affairs programmes.
All of your accusations are based on the fact that nobody seem to be biased towards the No side, while simultaneously ignoring that they were equally unbiased towards the Yes side. "If they're not with us, they're against us", right?
:rolleyes:0 -
That's funny, because i distinctly got the impression that Newstalk were being very lenient on the No side, to the point where I was convinced they were biased towards the No side. Funny how you sometimes only hear what you want to hear, isn't it?
you might be thinking of Tom Dunne, who was quite the no voter. Ivan Yates and George Hook would both be yes voters and weren't afraid to hide it. They weren't being fed what to say by management of course, they were yes voters of their own accord and are allowed voice their opinions
When people find themselves in a situation where everyone seems to be biased against them there are two possibilities that stand out. Which do you think is most likely?- No one supports them because everyone is corrupt, everyone is being bribed, everyone is getting something out of it, everyone is "toeing the line", be it in a company or political party, basically the whole world is corrupt
- No one supports them because their position is ridiculous and everyone but them can see that
So which do you think it is?0 -
The claims above could be subscribed to the no side as well.
European Party involvement
UKIP - Europe of Freedom and Democracy Party
Private money
COIR, Ganley, Hedge Funds
Media Bias
TV3 - barely a night went past without Vincent telling us to vote no.
The internet really does give conspiracy nuts way too big a forum.0 -
Major democratic abuses have occurred, with numerous European and Irish laws getting broken in the process.
I assume you have sources to prove that the "numerous European and Irish laws" that you claim have been broken actually have been?
It does alright, but I suppose that's why people decided to vote Yes this time around.I don't accept the result of this referendum, it stinks of corruption and the political bullying and scaremongering was blatant from the start.
Here, have another sour grape.0 -
Whether or not any conspiracy exists, some aspects of it were clearly carried out in an illegal way, and should be dealt with in a way which reflects that
Only a fool would say otherwise, or try to defend the illegality
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Which aspects?0
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I'm a solid no and I was asked for ID.
Much ado about nothing.
And while it's true the electoral register is a mess, it's generally always a mess.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDZKXtStJ0
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