Lisbon - a fraudulent referendum?

dead air

derry wrote: »

Also Pravda the Russian newspaper on Friday said it abundantly clear that the referendum was fixed and stuffed with yes votes.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/109718-0/
So now your going to say the Russians have a CT complex.

Well, it is in the opinion section.

meglome

http://engforum.pravda.ru/

And the forum is the picture of fact too.

rumour

dead air wrote: »

Well, it is in the opinion section.

Indeed, I particularly like this bit,

Do you really think the Irish are stupid, or that they have no spinal column, or a memory?

What a conundrum??? I think most of Europe and especially the Brussels administration believe this, and we have just verified it.

Otherwise was the vote rigged? Torrid affair really.

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

What a conundrum??? I think most of Europe and especially the Brussels administration believe this, and we have just verified it.

Otherwise was the vote rigged? Torrid affair really.

So you think the only possibilities are that the Irish people have no backbone or that the vote was rigged? Could it not be secret option C: a lot of people realised that their last no vote was a result of fear whipped up by a few groups of determined vested interest groups and changed their minds accordingly?

meglome

rumour wrote: »

What a conundrum??? I think most of Europe and especially the Brussels administration believe this, and we have just verified it.

Otherwise was the vote rigged? Torrid affair really.

Or, I dunno, maybe the large percentage of people who voted No because they didn't know anything about the treaty found out about the treaty and didn't have a problem with it.

I'm sure your opinion is great down the pub or whatever but could you please stop insulting those of us who cast an informed Yes vote. Perhaps you might wonder instead why so many people disagree with you.

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's pretty much that way for me now in DSE, because it's the same people manning the polling stations each time, and what with one thing and another, we've all been in and out of polling stations quite a lot over the last couple of years...

cordially,
Scofflaw

I find that quite shocking. It doesn't belong in this forum but I can now gather why any sort of electoral reform in Ireland always falls flat. Why change a system where with a wink and a nod you can have a vote!!

Obviously the system you describe is much more reliable in terms of results than observing correctly the rules that have been established indeed fought for over the centuries to ensure someone who is eligible can vote.

Furthermore during the Lisbon debate I did admire how you stuck to the wording of the treaty and defended its absolute position by what was written. The procedure by which you vote and now deem acceptable is not written. Are we to expect the same from the EU?

PopeBuckfastXVI

rumour wrote: »

I find that quite shocking. It doesn't belong in this forum but I can now gather why any sort of electoral reform in Ireland always falls flat. Why change a system where with a wink and a nod you can have a vote!!

Obviously the system you describe is much more reliable in terms of results than observing correctly the rules that have been established indeed fought for over the centuries to ensure someone who is eligible can vote.

Furthermore during the Lisbon debate I did admire how you stuck to the wording of the treaty and defended its absolute position by what was written. The procedure by which you vote and now deem acceptable is not written. Are we to expect the same from the EU?

Misplaced fauxtrage for the loss.

rumour

meglome wrote: »

Or, I dunno, maybe the large percentage of people who voted No because they didn't know anything about the treaty found out about the treaty and didn't have a problem with it.

I'm sure your opinion is great down the pub or whatever but could you please stop insulting those of us who cast an informed Yes vote. Perhaps you might wonder instead why so many people disagree with you.

Its not me its was in the comments section of the Figaro, now in Pravda. We brought this upon ourselves by our failure to honour our first referendum. It is always true that we can change our minds for whatever reason. But to do so repeatedly leads others to ask the question,

Do you really think the Irish are stupid, or that they have no spinal column, or a memory?

Unfortunately much as you may dislike it you have now no control over the answer. Restoring the credibility of Ireland as a nation of people is now a much more diffcult task than anything we faced during Lisbon.

To the whole world it is quite obvious that our government ignored the results of a referendum to please a foreign institution. Any intelligent person could quite easily ascertain that the constitution of the Irish nation can with the right amount of pressure be easily circumvented, thus making that constitution not that strong to begin with.

rumour

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Misplaced fauxtrage for the loss.

Perhaps...(I'm guessing what fauxtrage means). Sure we'll just carry on and all will be grand:rolleyes:

rumour

meglome wrote: »

http://engforum.pravda.ru/

And the forum is the picture of fact too.

:pac: Just like here!!

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

Its not me its was in the comments section of the Figaro, now in Pravda. We brought this upon ourselves by our failure to honour our first referendum. It is always true that we can change our minds for whatever reason. But to do so repeatedly leads others to ask the question,

Do you really think the Irish are stupid, or that they have no spinal column, or a memory?

Unfortunately much as you may dislike it you have now no control over the answer. Restoring the credibility of Ireland as a nation of people is now a much more diffcult task than anything we faced during Lisbon.

To the whole world it is quite obvious that our government ignored the results of a referendum to please a foreign institution. Any intelligent person could quite easily ascertain that the constitution of the Irish nation can with the right amount of pressure be easily circumvented, thus making that constitution not that strong to begin with.

Personally I have a lot more respect for someone who changes their mind when they realise they're wrong than someone who clings pridefully to their position lest people think they have no spinal column. There is no honour in maintaining a flawed position.

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

So you think the only possibilities are that the Irish people have no backbone or that the vote was rigged? Could it not be secret option C: a lot of people realised that their last no vote was a result of fear whipped up by a few groups of determined vested interest groups and changed their minds accordingly?

The result does not matter, it was the fact that the government so quickly dismissed it and called for a new referendum. To the outside world regardless of what internal issues were at play, it looks like our government works to an agenda that can so easily ignore democratic results. This can be construed a different way, our government can and have on repeated occasions ignored the results of referendums. Obviously they can be relied upon to do it in the future?

In this case it just happened to be Lisbon.

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Personally I have a lot more respect for someone who changes their mind when they realise they're wrong than someone who clings pridefully to their position lest people think they have no spinal column. There is no honour in maintaining a flawed position.

That is a valid point. But to do so again and again reduces your credibility. It also, on a different level calls into question our respect for the rule of Law. Something our European neighbours take much more seriously than we do.

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

The result does not matter, it was the fact that the government so quickly dismissed it and called for a new referendum. To the outside world regardless of what internal issues were at play, it looks like our government works to an agenda that can so easily ignore democratic results. This can be construed a different way, our government can and have on repeated occasions ignored the results of referendums. Obviously they can be relied upon to do it in the future?

In this case it just happened to be Lisbon.

Ignoring a referendum means they went ahead anyway regardless of the vote, they have never done that. What they did was find out why people voted no, addressed the major concerns and asked if they had changed their minds and it turned out they had. That's how democracy works and I sincerely hope that we can rely on them in future to attempt to address our issues instead of throwing out a huge amount of necessary reform because some people have some misconceptions about it.

Btw, I seriously doubt that you'd be saying the result doesn't matter if it had been another no. You'd be shouting it from the rooftops as proof that the referendum was a waste of time and money and that the government is out of touch with the people etc etc.

meglome

rumour wrote: »

Its not me its was in the comments section of the Figaro, now in Pravda. We brought this upon ourselves by our failure to honour our first referendum. It is always true that we can change our minds for whatever reason. But to do so repeatedly leads others to ask the question,

And those people are entitled to their opinions just like you are. It seems the Irish electorate doesn't agree with them by a large majority.

The number one reason given for the Lisbon 1 no vote was 'don't know what is in the treaty'. So it would seem obvious to me given the big yes vote that people found out what was in the treaty and didn't have a problem with it. I have no idea how that translates into being spineless, it would seem to be the opposite of spineless.

meglome

rumour wrote: »

That is a valid point. But to do so again and again reduces your credibility. It also, on a different level calls into question our respect for the rule of Law. Something our European neighbours take much more seriously than we do.

To inform yourself and vote for the right reasons can never damage your credibility IMO.

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

That is a valid point. But to do so again and again reduces your credibility. It also, on a different level calls into question our respect for the rule of Law. Something our European neighbours take much more seriously than we do.

Your credibility would be reduced but it's not the act of changing your mind that reduces your credibility because as I said there is no honour in maintaining a position that you have realised is flawed, it's the act of repeatedly arriving at flawed positions and then having to change them when you realise you're wrong. What we need to do is properly inform ourselves and give a confident answer the first time, be it a yes or a no, then there will be no need to change our minds because there will be no misconceptions to correct and no more learning to do

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it's the act of repeatedly arriving at flawed positions and then having to change them when you realise you're wrong.

That then returns one to the question are the Irish stupid? Conundrum.

We walked ourselves into this position. That is why I say its a torrid affair.

PopeBuckfastXVI

rumour wrote: »

That then returns one to the question are the Irish stupid? Conundrum.

We walked ourselves into this position. That is why I say its a torrid affair.

Our politicians were stupid for assuming that they could 'inform' us about Lisbon by putting their County Council candidates on posters. Our politicians were stupid for ignoring the campaign of lies and water muddying by sections of the first 'No' campaign. Our politicians were stupid for not discussing the actual contents of the treaty and concentrating on past benefits of the EU.

The Irish realised they didn't know enough to give a definitive 'yes', said 'no', took the time to learn more, and make a much more informed decision. Which is actually quite astute, if you think about it.

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

That then returns one to the question are the Irish stupid? Conundrum.

We walked ourselves into this position. That is why I say its a torrid affair.

Yes it does return to that question but we're no longer asking it for the reasons you were

We don't appear stupid because we keep changing our minds, we appear stupid because with both Nice and Lisbon we were scared into voting no by the lies of extremists and then had to go out and correct our mistake when we realised we'd been fooled

rumour

meglome wrote: »

The number one reason given for the Lisbon 1 no vote was 'don't know what is in the treaty'. So it would seem obvious to me given the big yes vote that people found out what was in the treaty and didn't have a problem with it. I have no idea how that translates into being spineless, it would seem to be the opposite of spineless.

That doesn't seem to be the perception abroad. I recall a phrase 'at the heart of europe', never quite understood it. If we are to suceed now given all our problems, we have to manage our perception at the heart of europe, I recall this being an absolute necessity by all the 'informed people'.

I think we are at a considerable disadvantage currently. The question now is how do we manage this perception.

meglome

rumour wrote: »

That then returns one to the question are the Irish stupid? Conundrum.

We walked ourselves into this position. That is why I say its a torrid affair.

I think we're back to the problem with having referenda in the first place. The liars and crazies crawl out of the woodwork with their own agendas and the crápfest begins, people end up being scared instead of informed.

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

I think we are at a considerable disadvantage currently. The question now is how do we manage this perception.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What we need to do is properly inform ourselves and give a confident answer the first time, be it a yes or a no, then there will be no need to change our minds because there will be no misconceptions to correct and no more learning to do

meglome

rumour wrote: »

That doesn't seem to be the perception abroad. I recall a phrase 'at the heart of europe', never quite understood it. If we are to suceed now given all our problems, we have to manage our perception at the heart of europe, I recall this being an absolute necessity by all the 'informed people'.

I think we are at a considerable disadvantage currently. The question now is how do we manage this perception.

And you're getting this from a couple of opinion pieces? I was in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands for a few weeks and not one person even mentioned the Lisbon treaty, it's a non-story.

Some people are of the opinion the world is flat, they're obviously wrong, should I care?

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes it does return to that question but we're no longer asking it for the reasons you were

We don't appear stupid because we keep changing our minds, we appear stupid because with both Nice and Lisbon we were scared into voting no by the lies of extremists and then had to go out and correct our mistake when we realised we'd been fooled

That is your opinion but as I have siad it does not seem to be the opinion in the newspapers accross Europe. I have read the english ones and discounted them, but the french, dutch,spanish, now the Russians, even the maltese are asking these questions.

They don't really get your point of view. Perhaps you should write to them!

rumour

meglome wrote: »

And you're getting this from a couple of opinion pieces? I was in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands for a few weeks and not one person even mentioned the Lisbon treaty, it's a non-story.

Some people are of the opinion the world is flat, they're obviously wrong, should I care?

So perception at the 'heart of europe' is a non issue?

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

That is your opinion but as I have siad it does not seem to be the opinion in the newspapers accross Europe. I have read the english ones and discounted them, but the french, dutch,spanish, now the Russians, even the maltese are asking these questions.

They don't really get your point of view. Perhaps you should write to them!

What is your point exactly? Are you suggesting that people should have voted no again even if they had changed their minds in the hopes that they would prevent a perception that Irish people are stupid? I thought we had agreed that there is no honour in maintaining a flawed position, would doing that not make them look even more stupid and arrogant and stubborn to boot?

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What we need to do is properly inform ourselves and give a confident answer the first time

Not very good at doing this are we? Seems in relation to Europe we're just incapable or stupid. Perhaps the solution is to leave the 'no' option off the ballot paper

PopeBuckfastXVI

rumour wrote: »

Not very good at doing this are we? Seems in relation to Europe we're just incapable or stupid. Perhaps the solution is to leave the 'no' option off the ballot paper

*chuckle* *chuckle* *snort*

Perhaps we should take the time to inform ourselves and give a definitive answer the first time. Perhaps our politicians should reference the treaty instead of their upcoming candidates. Perhaps our special interest groups should reference the treaty instead of their fantasies.

Quite hard to legislate for all that though.

The thrust of your 'argument', if it can be loosely termed that, is that either the first vote was invalid, as it made us look stupid, which could be corrected with a second (as we did?), or that merely having the second made us look stupid, so we should have stuck with the first (even though most people thought it was a bad decision).

Anyone who thinks we are 'stupid' for either of the above isn't worth listing to, really, and certainly not worth acting to placate.

I would be tempted to tell them to build a bridge...

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

Not very good at doing this are we? Seems in relation to Europe we're just incapable or stupid. Perhaps the solution is to leave the 'no' option off the ballot paper

If you're going to quote me please do it in context

Sam Vimes wrote:

What we need to do is properly inform ourselves and give a confident answer the first time, be it a yes or a no

We don't have to vote yes to everything but if we vote no we should have good and valid reasons for doing so. If we do that then there will be no point in having another referendum on the same treaty because no one will have changed their minds because their objections will still stand and that will either kill the treaty or allow the government to go back to Europe and renegotiate to get our objections addressed so we can vote on a new treaty that everyone agrees to.

What we need to do is stop voting based on misconceptions, lies and issues with nothing to do with the treaty such as a dislike of Fianna Fail