Motorway Driving - Education.

Dummy

With the number of motorway miles in Ireland increasing every year, should a pamphlet be issued out to every house explaining how to use the motorway? Or maybe it has been issued already & I have missed it.

Everyday, I see the most amazing things happening on the M50 and M1 motorways.

For example:

1. Cars travelling at speed on the overtaking lane (outside lane) and then cross all three lanes onto an exit ramp - again at speed.

2. Cars joining a motorway - that exit the ramp and cross all lanes to get onto the overtaking lane, when there is absolutely no need to.

3. Cars not moving into the next lane, to allow another car exit a ramp to join the motorway.

4. Cars travelling at 40 KMPH on motorways (even on overtaking lane as seen this morning on M50).

5. Use of mobile phones while driving on motorway - a motorway is a dangerous place and requires FULL concentration.

For many, motorways are a novelty. Education is required.

Alanstrainor

There should be some element of motorway driving covered in the driving test. As it stands you can pass only driving at 50km\h around town and head straight out onto the motorway with no experience of motorway driving. Implementing this would be difficult but it needs to be done imo.

Tipsy Mac

From my experience the number one danger is idots thinking the overtaking lane is the "fast lane", I think at the moment this isn't even a penalty points offence.

h3000

Alanstrainor wrote: »

There should be some element of motorway driving covered in the driving test. As it stands you can pass only driving at 50km\h around town and head straight out onto the motorway with no experience of motorway driving. Implementing this would be difficult but it needs to be done imo.

Most definitely.

-Slightly OT-
They should also include night driving, parallel parking (parking in general actually) and some sort of simulator driving for emergency avoidances and the likes.

no1beemerfan

Excellent comments from OP. I think it would'nt do any harm to email your suggestion to the RSA.

A lot of people don't have a clue/care on how to drive on motorways correctly. (Thats putting it polietly!!)

robbie_998

my dad gives out to me for this but i dont drive fast at all on motorways, i do stick to the speed limit.

but when i drive on motorways i drive on the inside lane, depending on traffic and so on,

when i come to an exit that i am not intending to take, i will move to the outer lane leaving the inside lane free for people coming on to the motorway and so i will not be in the way.

but if i am driving on a three lane motorway or a dual carriage way with three lanes, i will just sit in the middle lane driving normally

Anan1

robbie_998 wrote: »

but if i am driving on a three lane motorway or a dual carriage way with three lanes, i will just sit in the middle lane driving normally

Please tell us you're joking!

robbie_998

Anan1 wrote: »

Please tell us you're joking!

if the speed limit is 120 i will stick around 110.

but if im not going faster than people in the inner lane then i will go inner lane.

whats so bad about the middle lane, thats what its there for, and you have another to over take me ?

?Cee?view

robbie_998 wrote: »

my dad gives out to me for this but i dont drive fast at all on motorways, i do stick to the speed limit.

but when i drive on motorways i drive on the inside lane, depending on traffic and so on,

when i come to an exit that i am not intending to take, i will move to the outer lane leaving the inside lane free for people coming on to the motorway and so i will not be in the way.

but if i am driving on a three lane motorway or a dual carriage way with three lanes, i will just sit in the middle lane driving normally

You were doing fine 'til the last line. I have to agree with your father if that's what he gives out about.

BigEejit

Always amazed me that people are not allowed on the motorway before they pass a simple test (that only tests at relatively slow speed) but they are allowed to after, even though they both have no experience.

What always gets me is the muppets that drive down onramps that dont have their own lane and try to join traffic at 50mph and lower ....

I have an Auntie in the UK who has had a full license for more than 15 years and she has never driven on a motorway because she is scared ****less of it.

Gregor Samsa

I know the ignorance is everywhere, but it's been especially noticeable on the newly upgraded motorways that came into being last month. I drive the M18 (between Ennis and Shannon) every day, and the amount of people who don't realise it's a motorway is incredible. Tractors pulling trailers of hay on the hard shoulder, people stopping on the hard shoulder, L plates, poor lane discipline, driving slowly, hitch hikers (and people stopping to pick them up), the whole lot.

The best thing I've seen, howver, were two cyclists trundling aling in the hard shoulder last week, just coming up to dusk. No lights of course, but one of them was wearing one of those free relective jackets with RSA on the back. I'm sure the RSA would be delighted to know that that their safery gear was being used in such a dangerous way.

robbie_998

churchview wrote: »

You were doing fine 'til the last line. I have to agree with your father if that's what he gives out about.

but its not the outside lane

and no he gives out cos i move lanes when others want on the motorway.

Gregor Samsa

robbie_998 wrote: »

whats so bad about the middle lane, thats what its there for, and you have another to over take me ?

Is "keep left" such a difficult concept to understand? :rolleyes:

here's what's wrong with it:

I'm driving along as I should be in the left lane at the speed limit - perfectly legal

I come across you, wrongly in the middle lane, driving below the speed limit

in order to legaly overtake you, I have to leave my lane, cross your lane and go into the rigth hand lane to pass, then back out, across your lane and into the left hand lane to carry on driving.

So, because of your ignorance, I have to cross multiple lanes at high speed, thus increasing the danger of someting bad happening.

Please, drive in the left lane, unless you're overtaking, letting another driver merge (which is basically overtaking), or turning right.

robbie_998

phutyle wrote: »

Is "keep left" such a difficult concept to understand? :rolleyes:

but i do be going faster than the people in the left lane, if not going faster than them then i will go into it

Alun

robbie_998 wrote: »

whats so bad about the middle lane, thats what its there for, and you have another to over take me ?

Because if I, obeying the RotR, am driving along minding my own business in lane 1, I have to go all the way out to lane 3 via lane 2, and all the way back into lane 1, again via lane 2, just to overtake you, that's why :rolleyes:

?Cee?view

phutyle wrote: »

Is "keep left" such a difficult concept to understand? :rolleyes:

Robbie - what he says above ^^^^^^.

Keep Left......, on a single lane carriageway, on a country boreen, coming off a roundabout, at a junction unless turning right; in fact pretty much everywhere.

It's the one principle that needs to be remembered to understand lane discipline.

?Cee?view

Back on Topic.

OP, Dummy, the discussion on lane discipline here proves that you're right, a pamphlet or some education campaign should be run.

robbie_998

Alun wrote: »

Because if I, obeying the RotR, am driving along minding my own business in lane 1, I have to go all the way out to lane 3 via lane 2, and all the way back into lane 1, again via lane 2, just to overtake you, that's why :rolleyes:

churchview wrote: »

Robbie - what he says above ^^^^^^.

Keep Left......, on a single lane carriageway, on a country boreen, coming off a roundabout, at a junction unless turning right; in fact pretty much everywhere.

It's the one principle that needs to be remembered to understand lane discipline.

but i do be going faster than the people in the left lane, if not going faster than them then i will go into it

how is that soo bad ???

nobody in the inside lane will ever ""undertake me or overtake in the inside lane""

surely thats fair for me to be in the middle lane when traffic in inner lane is slow and outer lane is going faster ?? yes ???

BigEejit

In fairness though, on a busy motorwy (M25 in UK is the one I use daily) you would be driven demented because there is a truck doing 57mph every 200 yards and if I was doing say 75 to 85mph I would be changing lanes every 10 seconds.

?Cee?view

Robbie,

Make up your mind. Earlier you said,

"...but if i am driving on a three lane motorway or a dual carriage way with three lanes, i will just sit in the middle lane driving normally "

If that's the case, then you're wrong.

If you're using the middle lane to overtake and then moving back to the left lane when you've overtaken, then you're correct.

robbie_998

churchview wrote: »

Robbie,

Make up your mind. Earlier you said,

"...but if i am driving on a three lane motorway or a dual carriage way with three lanes, i will just sit in the middle lane driving normally "

If that's the case, then you're wrong.

If you're using the middle lane to overtake and then moving back to the left lane when you've overtaken, then you're correct.

when i said driving normally, i ment close enough to the speed limit, the traffic in the inner lane will never be faster than me.

?Cee?view

BigEejit wrote: »

In fairness though, on a busy motorwy (M25 in UK is the one I use daily) you would be driven demented because there is a truck doing 57mph every 200 yards and if I was doing say 75 to 85mph I would be changing lanes every 10 seconds.

That maybe so, but that's not the problem with say the M7 here. You can go for long stretches with nothing in the left lane and the other two lanes chock a block.

BigEejit

churchview wrote: »

That maybe so, but that's not the problem with say the M7 here. You can go for long stretches with nothing in the left lane and the other two lanes chock a block.

Ah, that would have me fuming alright

WexCan

While I consider myself a true Irishman, I must confess that I'm appalled by some of the driving standards here, having learned to drive and passed my test in the UK.

It's absolutely ridiculous - people doing 100 in the RH lane while the LH lane is empty. I'm not about to undertake them, because I follow the rules. Why can't they?

It's simple, all the RSA need to say:

- Keep left.
- Someone going slower than you? Move to the next lane and return to your original lane once you have overtaken.
- Get into lane in good time for your exit.
- Check your mirrors when you're about to pass an entry ramp, you may need to move into the next lane to accomodate the traffic entering.
- Please don't use your screenwash when I'm behind you.
- If you've overtaken me, wait until you can see the front of my car in your rear view mirror before cutting back in.
- Don't undertake.
- The hard shoulder on motorways is for emergencies only.
- Keep to the speed limit, even the temporary ones. Some of us prefer not to be bullied into breaking it.

robbie_998

for those who are weary on the rules of the motorway, maybe this will help

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

?Cee?view

robbie_998 wrote: »

when i said driving normally, i ment close enough to the speed limit, the traffic in the inner lane will never be faster than me.

The speed of the other lanes is an irrelevance.

Always keep left, unless you're overtaking.

With one exception (where your father is incorrect). When other traffic in entering the motorway, it is advisable to move to the right to allow them to join the motorway, moving back to the left when safe to do so.

In fairness, at least you're trying to do the right thing on the roads, and you're doing a positive thing by coming on here and asking apparently genuine questions.

Alun

WexCan wrote: »

It's absolutely ridiculous - people doing 100 in the inside lane while the outside lane is empty. I'm not about to undertake them, because I follow the rules. Why can't they?

Inside lane = left
Outside lane = right

Alun

churchview wrote: »

With one exception (where your father is incorrect). When other traffic in entering the motorway, it is advisable to move to the right to allow them to join the motorway, moving back to the left when safe to do so.

Advisable, but not obligatory, and only advisable because 99.9% of Irish motorists don't know how to merge properly, i.e. match their speed to that of the mainline traffic first and then merge, rather than just barge on expecting other traffic to move out of the way. Of course, if the other traffic does move out of the way, it just reinforces the barger's perception that he's doing the right thing and thus the circle is complete.

WexCan

Depends what way you look at it, you could say the RH lane is the "inside" of the motorway.

Will edit though to make it a bit clearer.

?Cee?view

robbie_998 wrote: »

for those who are weary on the rules of the motorway, maybe this will help

Definitely "weary" of them at this stage

dudara

I really wonder if we have a national allergy to the left-hand lanes in this country.

Posters here all recommend driving in the left-hand lane, unless overtaking, and yet everyday, I am on my own in the inside lane.

I completely agree - a national campaign is sorely needed on this topic.

robbie_998

they already did

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdrfxuW0QH0

?Cee?view

Rather than expensive videos, the efficacy of which you'd have to question", what about some huge signs on the Motorways saying "Keep Left unless Overtaking".

Make them big and bold enough and everyone using the road will see them.

Theanswers

I drove recently from London to Benidorm in the south of Spain. In Europe people have the correct idea of what there car's are capable of. The vast majority of cars are designed the be safe at speeds greater than 120kph. Mercedes E-class, Audi A4 for example many of them on Irish Roads. Yet Irish drivers will drive along the motorway at less than 120kph.
This causes hugh delays. The irish driver has this mantality that 120kph is fast, to be honest on a motorway it's rather slow compared to the international standard.
The cars are capable of going faster, as is the road. What is not i ask? The driver.
We seen very few slow drivers in Europe, 80mph was the average speed for the "slow lane". It got faster as you went further left (Europe) the opposite to here. Many drivers would not have the patients there to sit behide a car doing 120kph. Drivers must be educated here. One of the few slow cars we did meet in Europe happened to be an Irish Car. No wonder Irish Drivers seem to be terified of driving in Europe!!

The Big Red Button

robbie_998 wrote: »

for those who are weary on the rules of the motorway, maybe this will help

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

According to those rules, robbie_998 would appear to be right.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.
On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

And I get his point. If everyone only used the second lane for overtaking those in the first lane, what would be the purpose of the third lane?

robbie_998

chatterpillar wrote: »

According to those rules, robbie_998 would appear to be right.





And I get his point. If everyone only used the second lane for overtaking those in the first lane, what would be the purpose of the third lane?

Thank you,

i bet the other posters look stupid now after slating me :P

The Big Red Button

Alun wrote: »

Because if I, obeying the RotR, am driving along minding my own business in lane 1, I have to go all the way out to lane 3 via lane 2, and all the way back into lane 1, again via lane 2, just to overtake you, that's why :rolleyes:

According to the RotR, as quoted above, on a three lane motorway you should be driving in the second lane if you're moving faster than the traffic in the first lane. And in that case, if you wanted to overtake him, you'd just have to move into the overtaking lane (third lane) as you normally would.

Of course I know that on a two lane motorway you should always be in the left lane unless you're overtaking etc, but a three lane motorway is slightly different. I'd see it as two driving lanes and one overtaking lane, as opposed to one driving lane and two overtaking lanes, as most people here are describing it. I just don't see the point of that!

peasant

what is so bloody difficult to understand?

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

and while there isn't, you move over to the left


What this means is that you don't have to jump in and out between a long queue of trucks, overtaking every single one one by one, but that you can and may overtake them all in one go.

But once you're done and there is a long enough gap, you move left again

Alun

chatterpillar wrote: »

According to the RotR, as quoted above, on a three lane motorway you should be driving in the second lane if you're moving faster than the traffic in the first lane.

Yes, if there is a continuous stream of slower moving traffic in lane 1 (which hardly ever happens in Ireland) and WHILE you're overtaking them. Then as soon as a space appears large enough for you to safely do so, you return back to lane 1. It doesn't mean that if you can see a truck a couple of km's down the road that you can stay out there just because you can't be arsed to move back.

Keep left except when overtaking .. it really is that simple. Try the trick of staying in the middle lane unnecessarily long in a country where they know how to drive, like Germany, and see how far you get.

Gurgle

I think you're all giving people too much credit.
Education, signs, videos, pamphlets etc...

Its not that all those bad drivers don't know how it should be done - they know perfectly well, they just couldn't be arsed.

slimjimmc

Peasant and Alun have it spot on.

The Big Red Button

peasant wrote: »

What this means is that you don't have to jump in and out between a long queue of trucks, overtaking every single one one by one, but that you can and may overtake them all in one go.

But once you're done and there is a long enough gap, you move left again

Well, as far as I'm concerned, if there's a steady stream of traffic in the first lane going at 100kph with no gaps, and no cars in the second or third lane, I'm perfectly entitled to remain in the second lane at 120kph. Of course, if a substantial gap appears in the first lane, I'll go back into it.

I wouldn't drive in the second lane if the cars in the first lane were going at a faster speed than me. That just wouldn't make sense. And in Robbie's previous posts, he specifically said

robbie_998 wrote: »

but i do be going faster than the people in the left lane, if not going faster than them then i will go into it

So you have the first lane of traffic moving along at 100kph, I'm in the second lane moving along at 120kph. If someone comes up behind me in the second lane moving at 130kph, they have the third lane to overtake me.

This is pretty much exacly what happened me last time I was driving on a three lane motorway between Dublin and Wexford, and it seemed to be working pretty well. And the traffic was heavy but moving quite quickly.

Arathorn

If you should be in the left lane normally and use the middle lane to overtake, then does that mean the far right lane is only for overtaking the overtaker.

Yes people don't know what to do with 3 lanes because the're usually not used to it, plus the signs on seem to suggest the left lane is for leavers and joiners to the motorway.

The Big Red Button

And imagine this situation. You have a three lane motorway with heavy traffic. Every single driver is obeying the rules and driving at 120kph (big assumption, I know, but just accept it for the purpose of illustration!) Therefore there is no need for anyone to overtake anyone else.

According to churchview, you should:

churchview wrote: »

Always keep left, unless you're overtaking.

So are you saying that every single driver should remain in the left hand lane, thus making the tailback twice as long? And leaving the second and third lanes empty? No, in my opinion, both the first and second lanes should be used equally although no one is actually overtaking.*

This is what I mean when I say that I'd consider the first and second lanes to be driving lanes and the third lane to be an overtaking lane. Otherwise what is the point in having three lanes in the first place?!





*Just to emphasise, this would only apply when there are three lanes, if there were only two then everyone should stay in the first lane unless they're overtaking.

peasant

chatterpillar wrote: »

And imagine this situation. You have a three lane motorway with heavy traffic. Every single driver is obeying the rules and driving at 120kph (big assumption, I know, but just accept it for the purpose of illustration!) Therefore there is no need for anyone to overtake anyone else.

No point in assuming something that never, ever happens.
Someone will always be going slower. Trucks for example are not allowed to do 120 km/h

hawker

Would like to know the opinions of fellow posters on the OP's point 3 regarding moving to lane 2 to allow other road users join the motorway.

The amount of drivers who do not use their indicators when joining a motorway is something unreal. I would go as far to say that I would not move if a driver did not indicate when joining a motorway. It's a simple flick of a stalk. Surely even the most unfit lumps can manage that.

The Big Red Button

peasant wrote: »

No point in assuming something that never, ever happens.
Someone will always be going slower. Trucks for example are not allowed to do 120 km/h

The point of me using an assumption in a case like this is to work out how things should be done in a "perfect" scenario. Of course this isn't going to happen in real life, and we need to adjust our driving and use our own judgement accordingly.

But I'm using that assumption in the case outlined above in order to prove my point. If my interpretation of the RotR is correct, then lanes one and two should both be used by an equal number of cars each. If the other posters are correct, than am I to understand that only lane one should be used in this case? Seeing as no overtaking is being done?

If we can decide on that point, then we can apply the theory to other situations where there is slower moving traffic such as trucks.

BrianD3

hawker wrote: »

Would like to know the opinions of fellow posters on the OP's point 3 regarding moving to lane 2 to allow other road users join the motorway.

The amount of drivers who do not use their indicators when joining a motorway is something unreal. I would go as far to say that I would not move if a driver did not indicate when joining a motorway. It's a simple flick of a stalk. Surely even the most unfit lumps can manage that.

Lack of indication is not a major issue in my opinion as if a driver is coming down an on ramp it's not too ambiguous where they're going.

But what is a major annoyance is lazy, sloppy, SLOW inconsiderate merging.

If drivers on the mainline move lanes to faciliate mergers, it only encourages this sloppinesss. Also, I bet if you gathered a group of people off the street and asked them who has priority when traffic is merging onto a M-way, around 50% will say that the merging traffic has priority :rolleyes:

Drivers also expect others to move lanes in other situations eg someone has stopped in the hard shoulder to answer their mobile :rolleyes: and when they want to rejoin they can't be arsed waiting for a suitable gap in the traffic. So they just barge out and expect others to change lanes.

Anyhow I generally do not change lanes to faciliate merging cars unless I think there is a high chance of a collision. I usually assert myself by holding my position and speed and keeping my hand close to the horn should any dawdling numpty look like he's going to do something stupid.

WexCan

chatterpillar wrote: »

So are you saying that every single driver should remain in the left hand lane, thus making the tailback twice as long? And leaving the second and third lanes empty? No, in my opinion, both the first and second lanes should be used equally although no one is actually overtaking

So you expect people in lane 1 and 2 to drive at exactly the same speed? Baffling - someone's always going to be going faster than someone else.

You're going along down lane 1 (left) at 120. You come across a truck doing 90, you move out to lane 2. There's more trucks in lane 1, so you remain in lane 2 (because you are overtaking them). Then you come across a car in front doing 110. They've got every right to be in lane 2 because they're overtaking the trucks. So you move out to lane 3 to overtake them. Then, when that's done, you move back to the left.

This is a very efficient model. Yes, everyone should stick to the left hand lane, unless they're going faster than traffic ahead. How this would lengthen tailbacks is beyond me - the faster traffic moves into lanes 2 and 3 and all's well with the world.

The problem I see is the right hand lane hoggers who block progress for the rest of us and cause tailbacks themselves, forcing people to undertake.

peasant

chatterpillar wrote: »

But I'm using that assumption in the case outlined above in order to prove my point. If my interpretation of the RotR is correct, then lanes one and two should both be used by an equal number of cars each. If the other posters are correct, than am I to understand that only lane one should be used in this case? Seeing as no overtaking is being done?

Yes, in your theoretical situation, where everybody is doing exctly the speed limit (and intends sticking to it), all traffic would/should be in the leftmost lane.

You're wrong in the other part of your assumption though ...there would be no more of a tailback as if when the traffic was occupying two (or even all three) lanes. In either scenario everybody is progressing at 120 km/h, so everybody is happy (theoretically)

robbie_998

WexCan wrote: »

So you expect people in lane 1 and 2 to drive at exactly the same speed? Baffling - someone's always going to be going faster than someone else.

You're going along down lane 1 (left) at 120. You come across a truck doing 90, you move out to lane 2. There's more trucks in lane 1, so you remain in lane 2 (because you are overtaking them). Then you come across a car in front doing 110. They've got every right to be in lane 2 because they're overtaking the trucks. So you move out to lane 3 to overtake them. Then, when that's done, you move back to the left.

This is a very efficient model. Yes, everyone should stick to the left hand lane, unless they're going faster than traffic ahead. How this would lengthen tailbacks is beyond me - the faster traffic moves into lanes 2 and 3 and all's well with the world.

The problem I see is the right hand lane hoggers who block progress for the rest of us and cause tailbacks themselves, forcing people to undertake.

no one said thats how it should be. if we were to go on what other posters like church and so on said thats what we would end up like,