Motorway Driving - Education.

?Cee?view · 07-10-2009 9:14pm

There's really little point in coming up with crazy hypothetical situations and overthinking and overanalyzing.

All anyone needs to do is apply the Keep Left rule.

Short of all cars being on autopilot and being automatically guided so that they all miraculously travel at the same speed, it's the best way to regulate driver behaviour and lane discipline.

?Cee?view · 07-10-2009 9:17pm

robbie_998 wrote: »

no one said thats how it should be. if we were to go on what other posters like church and so on said thats what we would end up like,

Robbie, will you read what Wexcan said again? You obviously don't understand it.

And it's not what "I" said. It's the generally accepted Rule in the ROR, and taught by ALL driving bodies and Advanced Drivers organisations. In fairness, it's first principle stuff.

The Big Red Button · 07-10-2009 9:18pm

WexCan wrote: »

So you expect people in lane 1 and 2 to drive at exactly the same speed? Baffling - someone's always going to be going faster than someone else.

Again, that is an assumption used for the purposes of argument, in order to remove variables. It's a pretty common technique!

WexCan wrote: »

You're going along down lane 1 (left) at 120. You come across a truck doing 90, you move out to lane 2. There's more trucks in lane 1, so you remain in lane 2 (because you are overtaking them). Then you come across a car in front doing 110. They've got every right to be in lane 2 because they're overtaking the trucks. So you move out to lane 3 to overtake them. Then, when that's done, you move back to the left.

That's pretty much exactly what I've been saying all along!

OK. The way I understand it, where there's three lanes,

You go in the first lane if there are no other cars or if you're moving slower than the other traffic.
You go in the second lane if you're moving faster than the traffic in the first lane. Thus, you're overtaking those cars. I think we're all agreed that that's correct. Now here's where it gets contentious, and this is what I'm trying to clarify - if traffic is heavy and it's all moving at pretty much a uniform speed, I believe it's OK for all cars to use the first and second lanes equally. And that's exactly what's done in practice. It's just how it ends up ... cars in the first lane move out to overtake traffic ahead of them, traffic builds up, the second lane isn't moving any faster than the first lane but it's still more efficient because you have x number of cars in two lanes instead of one.
You go in the third lane only if you're overtaking traffic in the second lane.

robbie_998 · 07-10-2009 9:20pm

churchview wrote: »

There's really little point in coming up with crazy hypothetical situations and overthinking and overanalyzing.

All anyone needs to do is apply the Keep Left rule.

Short of all cars being on autopilot and being automatically guided so that they all miraculously travel at the same speed, it's the best way to regulate driver behaviour and lane discipline.

so when you say just keep left and thats it, your saying use lane 1 and if need use lane 2 to overtake, your trying to say we dont need 3 lanes !

unless you intend to overtake the overtaker which is really ridiculous !

lane 1 and 2 can go at the same speed and all will be well, if someone wants to over take then theres lane 3. thats it.

now if the traffic in lane 2 is faster than lane 1 than thats not a big deal at all, why would it be ? most trucks tend to be in lane 1 anyway doing 80KM/H as they are limited to that.

so you dont have to stay to the left, your stay in the left doing 120KM/H and you have trucks along the M-Way doing 80KM/H you'll only be trying to find gaps along the way, which in turn will mean, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, until you finish your motor way trip, whats wrong with just sitting in the middle lane and keep a nice steady pace about it ?

The Big Red Button · 07-10-2009 9:22pm

I'm no expert on this and I'm not claiming to be. But when Robbie originally stated that he sits in the second lane of a three-lane motorway when (and only when) there is slower-moving traffic in the first lane, he got slated for it. I'm just trying to understand why? Because I can't see how that's disobeying the rules of the road, or making things more difficult for other drivers, in any way.

peasant · 07-10-2009 9:23pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

the second lane isn't moving any faster than the first lane

And you know why that is?

Because some blockhead doesn't see the need to join the slow left lane traffic again, even though (s)he isn't in fact overtaking or going any faster, the dimwit

?Cee?view · 07-10-2009 9:24pm

Robbie,

I give up. You've won the argument. Doesn't mean you're right...just means I've lost interest....so you've won a fight on the internet....well done :rolleyes:

robbie_998 · 07-10-2009 9:28pm

peasant wrote: »

And you know why that is?

Because some blockhead doesn't see the need to join the slow left lane traffic again, even though (s)he isn't in fact overtaking or going any faster, the dimwit

and thats where you third lane will come in, over take him, it makes perfect sense

churchview wrote: »

Robbie,

I give up. You've won the argument. Doesn't mean you're right...just means I've lost interest....so you've won a fight on the internet....well done

we won fair and square cos we know our Rules Of The Road (ChatterPiller + Myself).

it sucks for you cos i only got my full license 3 weeks ago too :P (beating by a 17 year old and a nice Sligo girl) :P

The Big Red Button · 07-10-2009 9:28pm

peasant wrote: »

And you know why that is?

Because some blockhead doesn't see the need to join the slow left lane traffic again, even though (s)he isn't in fact overtaking or going any faster, the dimwit

Right ... so in heavy-moving traffic, I'm driving in the second lane and I realise I'm only going the same speed as the traffic in the first lane. So according to you, I should move back into the first lane. I do so, along with a few other drivers, and so the traffic in the second lane starts moving faster. I think, "great", and move out to overtake, along with a few other drivers. Thus slowing down the second-lane traffic to the same speed as the first-lane traffic again. So I'm back to where I started. None of the traffic has ended up getting anywhere any faster. It's just involved a lot of unnecessary maneuvering in and out of lanes.

WexCan · 07-10-2009 9:30pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

Now here's where it gets contentious, and this is what I'm trying to clarify - if traffic is heavy and it's all moving at pretty much a uniform speed, I believe it's OK for all cars to use the first and second lanes equally. And that's exactly what's done in practice. It's just how it ends up ... cars in the first lane move out to overtake traffic ahead of them, traffic builds up, the second lane isn't moving any faster than the first lane but it's still more efficient because you have x number of cars in two lanes instead of one.

This is fair enough, if traffic is heavy then you're stuck in the lane you're in, and it's generally accepted in this case that sometimes lane 1 will actually move faster than lane 2.

I use the M25 around London regularly, and this is often the case. Main thing is to stay in your lane when traffic is moving slowly, in this situation chopping and changing causes problems.

robbie_998 wrote: »

so when you say just keep left and thats it, your saying use lane 1 and if need use lane 2 to overtake, your trying to say we dont need 3 lanes !

unless you intend to overtake the overtaker which is really ridiculous !

lane 1 and 2 can go at the same speed and all will be well, if someone wants to over take then theres lane 3. thats it.

now if the traffic in lane 2 is faster than lane 1 than thats not a big deal at all, why would it be ? most trucks tend to be in lane 1 anyway doing 80KM/H as they are limited to that.

so you dont have to stay to the left, your stay in the left doing 120KM/H and you have trucks along the M-Way doing 80KM/H you'll only be trying to find gaps along the way, which in turn will mean, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, until you finish your motor way trip, whats wrong with just sitting in the middle lane and keep a nice steady pace about it ?

Have a look at my post above, it shows exactly a situation where you may need to overtake the overtaker.

You shouldn't need to be slowing down and speeding up, as long as you're planning ahead and have a good awareness of traffic. Move out and in in good time, keep an eye on the road ahead. If you've just overtaken in lane 2 and there's someone in the near distance on lane 1 going slower than you then stay in the middle lane until lane 1 is clear of slow-moving vehicles. Common sense really.

peasant · 07-10-2009 9:32pm

robbie_998 wrote: »

and thats where you third lane will come in, over take him, it makes perfect sense

Yes it does ...except in Ireland ...because here you get blockhead MKII blocking the rightmost line with an air off full blown righteousness going exactly 0.01 km/h faster (but still waaaay under the limit) than blockhead MKI in the middle lane.

?Cee?view · 07-10-2009 9:33pm

robbie_998 wrote: »

and thats where you third lane will come in, over take him, it makes perfect sense

we won fair and square cos we know our Rules Of The Road (ChatterPiller + Myself).

it sucks for you cos i only got my full license 3 weeks ago too :P (beating by a 17 year old and a nice Sligo girl) :P

When I was 17 (long time ago), I thought I knew it all too. Hopefully, you won't find out the hard way on the roads that we all have a lot to learn, and the Driving Test definitely does not qualify anyone as a safe or all knowing driver.

peasant · 07-10-2009 9:35pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

Right ... so in heavy-moving traffic, I'm driving in the second lane and I realise I'm only going the same speed as the traffic in the first lane. So according to you, I should move back into the first lane.

No ..not you ...in the middle of a dense queue of traffic, squeezing into an even denser queue on the left, shortening everybodies safe distance ...the bloomin eejit at the front of the queue is the one who's supposed to move over :rolleyes:

robbie_998 · 07-10-2009 9:38pm

peasant wrote: »

Yes it does ...except in Ireland ...because here you get blockhead MKII blocking the rightmost line with an air off full blown righteousness going exactly 0.01 km/h faster (but still waaaay under the limit) than blockhead MKI in the middle lane.

no. thats just being silly now, and again assuming but i have never witnessed that kind of thing, ok on a two lane motor way i've seen a van overtake a car and it was going fast enough to do so and not hold everybody up and as soon as he did, he went straight back into the left lane.

churchview wrote: »

When I was 17 (long time ago), I thought I knew it all too. Hopefully, you won't find out the hard way on the roads that we all have a lot to learn, and the Driving Test definitely does not qualify anyone as a safe or all knowing driver.

no it dosent, not anywhere near it but even when you pass your test you do still do a fair bit of reading up on this kind of thing, which is what i did. i read the book and all, then i went and did a lil practice on it and the way in which i drive like i've being describing here seems to work perfectly fine, nobody had any problems, nobody in my car, and other traffic were good with it too.

congo 9 is right, this is just another overtaking thread, /change name to Motorway Driving - Debate !

and yes congo9 the Rules Of The Road do cover this, i have it in an earlier post and a vid too

The Big Red Button · 07-10-2009 9:40pm

peasant wrote: »

No ..not you ...in the middle of a dense queue of traffic, squeezing into an even denser queue on the left, shortening everybodies safe distance ...the bloomin eejit at the front of the queue is the one who's supposed to move over :rolleyes:

So to clarify, as long as I'm not the bloomin eejit at the front of the queue, I'm correct in staying where I am even though I'm not overtaking? We're in agreement then?

congo_90 · 07-10-2009 9:41pm

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been said.

Does the r.o.t.r not cover this?
Is this not why you should study the r.o.t.r?
The theory test (not perfect) is there to aknowledge you have a competant knowledge of the rules of the road.

Then we have the driving test which yes doesn't cover motorways though an instructor should explain the rules of such.

All these 'reminders' are more an insult to those who didn't get their licence from an amnesty (i'm sure some did) and actually bothered to read the rules.

There are as many idiot drivers out there as there are good ones but giving someone a leaflet won't change their attitude as they're too close minded and set in their habits.

This thread has just become another "overtaking on motorway" thread.

peasant · 07-10-2009 9:46pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

So to clarify, as long as I'm not the bloomin eejit at the front of the queue, I'm correct in staying where I am even though I'm not overtaking? We're in agreement then?

Not quite

Of course there will be situations where your hands are tied and you will be lane-bound ...you can't move left because the lane is full and you can't move right either, because you can't go any faster or that lane is also full with faster cars.

But you are wrong to just keep sitting there. At the first safe opportunity you should either join the left lane (because you are NOT overtaking so the drive left rule applies) or move over to the outer lane and actually overtake

Arathorn · 07-10-2009 10:18pm

At the end of the day right or wrong most people use lane 1 and 2 on the motorway almost equally and allow lane 3 for overtaking.

Personally if the roads are very quiet I will stay in lane 1, if traffic is a little busy I stay in lane 2, generally lane 2 moves slightly faster than lane 1 so in effect you are obeying the rotr by overtaking. Lane 1 is often full of trucks and people joining/exiting anyway.

Lane 3 is there if I need to overtake someone ahead of me or if I'm too slow for someone else (although I drive at the limit)

Seems to workfor most people

Guy:Incognito · 07-10-2009 10:26pm

robbie_998 wrote: »

when i said driving normally, i ment close enough to the speed limit, the traffic in the inner lane will never be faster than me.

Assume your talkign about the M50 here? Then this really isnt the case. I travel the M50 quite regularly. The slowest traffic is always in the middle lane. I go prety much everytime from Tallaght to Liffey Valley without leavign the inside lane because theres never anyoen in it. I've given up moveing out of it to overtake. I pass by lines of traffic while never breakign the speed limit. It's ****ign ridiculous what everyone is doign sitting in the middle lane.

churchview wrote: »

With one exception (where your father is incorrect). When other traffic in entering the motorway, it is advisable to move to the right to allow them to join the motorway, moving back to the left when safe to do so.
.

While thats good practice most of the time becaus epeople are up each other holes, it's not even nessecary if everyoen keps decent distances.

The problem with the new junctions on the M50 is that the outside of the two onramp lanes ends fairly abruptly.This normally isnt a big issue only the majority of people are stupid. They all huddle together in the outside of the two lanes, even if they've come down in the inside one, which mean a big long chunk of cars try to merge from a lane together that ends with a gap of about 20 metres, while the inside lane continues into a free lane for the next couple of miles that would give them all the time in the world to merge from at their own convenience.

As for lane (in)dicipline being an Irish thing? thats a myth. The Uk have an equal number of middle lane hoggers and people vereing across lanes to exits.

robbie_998 · 07-10-2009 10:28pm

Stekelly wrote: »

Assume your talkign about the M50 here? Then this really isnt the case. I travel the M50 quite regularly. The slowest traffic is always in the middle lane. I go prety much everytime from Tallaght to Liffey Valley without leavign the inside lane because theres never anyoen in it. I've given up moveing out of it to overtake. I pass by lines of traffic while never breakign the speed limit. It's ****ign ridiculous what everyone is doign sitting in the middle lane.

not talking about any motor way in particular but i do agree with you on the M50 but thats another thread for another day

Gregor Samsa · 07-10-2009 10:38pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

But when Robbie originally stated that he sits in the second lane of a three-lane motorway when (and only when) there is slower-moving traffic in the first lane, he got slated for it. I'm just trying to understand why?

Because that's not what he said originally. He said:

robbie_998 wrote: »

but if i am driving on a three lane motorway or a dual carriage way with three lanes, i will just sit in the middle lane driving normally

Implying he sits in the middle lane regardless of what's in the left lane.

He then clarified his position by mentioning slower moving traffic in the left lane. In that instance, he's overtaking, and in the correct lane.

He could have avoided it all by being more accurate with his description in the first instance.

-Chris- · 07-10-2009 11:34pm

robbie_998 wrote: »

peasant wrote: »

Yes it does ...except in Ireland ...because here you get blockhead MKII blocking the rightmost line with an air off full blown righteousness going exactly 0.01 km/h faster (but still waaaay under the limit) than blockhead MKI in the middle lane.

no. thats just being silly now, and again assuming but i have never witnessed that kind of thing, ok on a two lane motor way i've seen a van overtake a car and it was going fast enough to do so and not hold everybody up and as soon as he did, he went straight back into the left lane.

Robbie, forgive me for saying this, but if you've never encountered this phenomenon before then I'd respectfully suggest that you're not a very experienced driver and therefore shouldn't be presuming to be the oracle of lane discipline!

My €0.02

robbie_998 · 08-10-2009 12:05am

-Chris- wrote: »

Robbie, forgive me for saying this, but if you've never encountered this phenomenon before then I'd respectfully suggest that you're not a very experienced driver and therefore shouldn't be presuming to be the oracle of lane discipline!

My €0.02

as i said i witnessed the van overtake a car, and no im not experienced and nobody really is, the minister for transport dosent even drive, he has his private driver and so on. and i dont see why i shouldnt be here talking about lane discipline when i was clearly in the right throughout the entire thread and knew the facts and was able to back them up. so i dont really see where your coming from ???

-Chris- · 08-10-2009 9:25am

robbie_998 wrote: »

i dont see why i shouldnt be here talking about lane discipline when i was clearly in the right throughout the entire thread and knew the facts and was able to back them up. so i dont really see where your coming from ???

Unfortunately much of what you say is semi-contradictory.

You drive "normally" in the middle lane, below the speed limit, but only if there are slower people in the left hand lane. This is commonly called overtaking.
Do you overtake in the middle lane, or do you normally drive in the middle lane?

Chatterpillar asserts that "If everyone only used the second lane for overtaking those in the first lane, what would be the purpose of the third lane?" implying that it's ok to drive use the middle lane as a normal driving lane. You agreed with him.

You've never come across the phenomenon of someone in the right lane driving 1kmph faster than the left lane and creating an obstruction.

You and Chatterpillar are patently wrong. You're both correct when you say "if the traffic in the left lane is moving slower than you, it's ok to stay in the middle lane" - that's commonly called overtaking.
However, once you've completed your overtaking manoeuvre you should pull back in to the left.
The middle lane is not an auxiliary driving lane, and that's a key issue with what you're saying.

Here's my take on it.

Just think of it in terms of the two-second rule:
-If there's no one on the road, stay in the leftmost lane.
-If there's less than two seconds between you and the car in front (due to a difference in speed), you should pull right and overtake.
-If there's less than two seconds between you and the car behind you (again, due to a difference in speed), you need to pull left so that they may safely overtake.

The caveats I'd place on this are
1. If there's no differential in speed and there's not two seconds between you and the other car, one of you is driving poorly.
2. If there's less than two seconds between you and the car behind you and you're already in the leftmost lane, they're tailgaiting you and they are an idiot.
3. Overtaking is a manoeuvre. You need to get around the car in front as quickly and safely as possible. If you need to accelerate to do it, fine. If you're doing 5kmph faster than the driver in front, it's not acceptable to overtake them while maintaining the 5kmph difference.

Clear as mud?

BigEejit · 08-10-2009 9:28am

robbie_998 wrote: »

as i said i witnessed the van overtake a car, and no im not experienced and nobody really is, the minister for transport dosent even drive, he has his private driver and so on. and i dont see why i shouldnt be here talking about lane discipline when i was clearly in the right throughout the entire thread and knew the facts and was able to back them up. so i dont really see where your coming from ???

Speak for yourself pal, I drove ~19,000 miles so far this year (and that could be considered lowish mileage among my colleagues, one regulalrly drives >40k miles a year) and a good 2/3 of that was motorway driving.

BigEejit · 08-10-2009 9:33am

-Chris- wrote: »

You've never come across the phenomenon of someone in the right lane driving 1kmph faster than the left lane and creating an obstruction.

Flipping trucks overtaking other trucks at 0.00001 mm/s. That can be the start of a tailback all on its own. Usually the reason why I have to go into the 3rd lane.

Zube · 08-10-2009 9:39am

-Chris- wrote: »

Clear as mud?

It's oversimplified. Most of the motorways near Dublin are too busy for these simple rules to apply.

For example, say I'm coming East on the M4 at 07:30 passing Kinnegad. People mostly follow the rules about staying left and passing right.

Now consider the N4 immediately after the motorway ends, approaching the M50 junction at 8 am. Traffic is in solid queues with no overtaking lane, as drivers get into the correct lane for the M50 junction.

Somewhere in between the two, traffic transitions from open motorway (stay left - pass right) to two lanes of traffic. Where? Who knows exactly?

robbie_998 · 08-10-2009 10:10am

-Chris- wrote: »

Unfortunately much of what you say is semi-contradictory.

You drive "normally" in the middle lane, below the speed limit, but only if there are slower people in the left hand lane. This is commonly called overtaking.
Do you overtake in the middle lane, or do you normally drive in the middle lane?

Chatterpillar asserts that "If everyone only used the second lane for overtaking those in the first lane, what would be the purpose of the third lane?" implying that it's ok to drive use the middle lane as a normal driving lane. You agreed with him.

You've never come across the phenomenon of someone in the right lane driving 1kmph faster than the left lane and creating an obstruction.

You and Chatterpillar are patently wrong. You're both correct when you say "if the traffic in the left lane is moving slower than you, it's ok to stay in the middle lane" - that's commonly called overtaking.
However, once you've completed your overtaking manoeuvre you should pull back in to the left.
The middle lane is not an auxiliary driving lane, and that's a key issue with what you're saying.

Here's my take on it.

Just think of it in terms of the two-second rule:
-If there's no one on the road, stay in the leftmost lane.
-If there's less than two seconds between you and the car in front (due to a difference in speed), you should pull right and overtake.
-If there's less than two seconds between you and the car behind you (again, due to a difference in speed), you need to pull left so that they may safely overtake.

The caveats I'd place on this are
1. If there's no differential in speed and there's not two seconds between you and the other car, one of you is driving poorly.
2. If there's less than two seconds between you and the car behind you and you're already in the leftmost lane, they're tailgaiting you and they are an idiot.
3. Overtaking is a manoeuvre. You need to get around the car in front as quickly and safely as possible. If you need to accelerate to do it, fine. If you're doing 5kmph faster than the driver in front, it's not acceptable to overtake them while maintaining the 5kmph difference.

Clear as mud?

i can see where you'd be confused,

i will pull back into the left lane if there is nobody else around type thing but the majority of the time i will just use the middle lane for the most of the journey. the traffic in the left lane could be going faster than me, there i have a choice, stay in my lane and hope it works out or go into the left lane and see what happens.

im in the middle lane and all is well, im going faster than the left lane and slower than the over taking lane, i am gonna stay in that lane most of the way, technically i am over taking the slower cars in the left lane but im also being overtaking too.

now if im driving alone and there is nobody around for miles then its really just a matter of which lane would be nicer to drive in and in which case i can drive in both lanes, so if there is nobody around i cannot use the third lane because i will not be overtaking anybody. yes ?

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 10:15am

robbie_998 wrote: »

the traffic in the left lane could be going faster than me, there i have a choice, stay in my lane and hope it works out or go into the left lane and see what happens.

If traffic on the left is going faster than you then you're in the wrong lane.

robbie_998 wrote: »

now if im driving alone and there is nobody around for miles then its really just a matter of which lane would be nicer to drive in and in which case i can drive in both lanes, so if there is nobody around i cannot use the third lane because i will not be overtaking anybody. yes ?

No, you should be in the left lane. Keep left, overtake right.

kodute · 08-10-2009 10:21am

Educate me on this one...
On the M18 as its now known there are a number of small exits to Ennis/tulla/barefield. These exits have corresponding entrance ramps where it is impossible to get up to 120kph (or even 100kph) in the >100m of lane provided.
This means indicating and pulling into the left lane at ~60kph

According to the RSA ad I should be at 120kph before attempting to merge, if anyone else is familiar with this stretch you'll know you need alot more road to do that especially on the barefield entrance.

This brings me to these questions.
What would you do in the situation if the road was busy? Stop and wait or merge at 60kph
Is there a regulation somewhere that says motorways must have certain length on/off ramps?

BigEejit · 08-10-2009 10:26am

Anan1 wrote:

robbie_998 wrote: »

now if im driving alone and there is nobody around for miles then its really just a matter of which lane would be nicer to drive in and in which case i can drive in both lanes, so if there is nobody around i cannot use the third lane because i will not be overtaking anybody. yes ?

No, you should be in the left lane. Keep left, overtake right.

Weeeelllll, in the wee small hours I sometimes drive in the middle lane, always though in areas where they are likely to be deer crossing the road (signposted). After seeing them crossing the road at 5am one night I thought a lot about what would happen if one of the feckers ran in front of my car.

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 10:29am

Is it possible to bring speed onto the beginning of the ramp? Is there a good view of the motorway from the ramp? Does the ramp end in a merge with the hard shoulder, or is there some kind of a barrier? Whatever you do, never get into a situation where you have to come to a halt at the end of the ramp.

BigEejit · 08-10-2009 10:29am

kodute wrote: »

Educate me on this one...
On the M18 as its now known there are a number of small exits to Ennis/tulla/barefield. These exits have corresponding entrance ramps where it is impossible to get up to 120kph (or even 100kph) in the >100m of lane provided.
This means indicating and pulling into the left lane at ~60kph

According to the RSA ad I should be at 120kph before attempting to merge, if anyone else is familiar with this stretch you'll know you need alot more road to do that especially on the barefield entrance.

This brings me to these questions.
What would you do in the situation if the road was busy? Stop and wait or merge at 60kph
Is there a regulation somewhere that says motorways must have certain length on/off ramps?

Thats dangerous and guaranteed to be the cause of an accident. Stopping and waiting is not going to work as well because as normal, humans cannot calculate the speed of something coming at them at 80mph and will pull out into their path.

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 10:31am

BigEejit wrote: »

Weeeelllll, in the wee small hours I sometimes drive in the middle lane, always though in areas where they are likely to be deer crossing the road (signposted). After seeing them crossing the road at 5am one night I thought a lot about what would happen if one of the feckers ran in front of my car.

There are exceptions to every rule, yes. That said, I think deer crossing motorways in the wee small hours is low enough on the list of things robbie_998 needs to worry about right now.;)

-Chris- · 08-10-2009 10:33am

Zube wrote: »

It's oversimplified. Most of the motorways near Dublin are too busy for these simple rules to apply.

It's waaay too simple, but if I was trying to create a rule of thumb for drivers who don't seem to understand the principle of "keep left", that'd be it!

:D

There is provision in the ROTR afaik that if you're in slow moving traffic that the keep left/overtake right principle is suspended.
I presume that when traffic gets properly heavy on the motorway that it's considered "slow moving" also.

robbie_998 · 08-10-2009 10:38am

Anan1 wrote: »

If traffic on the left is going faster than you then you're in the wrong lane.

well kinda because the first two lanes are classed by the RSA and ROTR as Driving lanes, third lane for overtaking only.
but in heavy traffic they tell you not to change lanes and just stay in the lane you are in, so i could be in the middle lane and traffic in the first lane will being going faster but its heavy traffic and i've being told by the RSA to stay in my lane.

Anan1 wrote: »

No, you should be in the left lane. Keep left, overtake right.

yes that is correct for a two lane motorway, but in a three lane motorway it is perfectly fine to stay in the middle lane, as proving before in a link i posted to ROTR which i think people here might need to freshing up on.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

and as i stated earlier i am usually going faster in traffic in lane one but i stay in the lane and for other traffic going faster there is lane 3.

thats it, end of, full stop !

kodute · 08-10-2009 10:38am

BigEejit wrote: »

Thats dangerous and guaranteed to be the cause of an accident. Stopping and waiting is not going to work as well because as normal, humans cannot calculate the speed of something coming at them at 80mph and will pull out into their path.

There is a good view of the motorway in the right mirror when on the ramp, not before. Speed after the bend onto the ramp would be (depending on car) 20-40kph.
At that point you must keep accelerating and have already indicated right. 99% of the time drivers on the motorway will move into the right lane to allow someone to merge.
However in the event the motorway is extremely busy (I am never on it at peak times) combined with an inattentive left lane driver, it could lead to a very dangerous situation.

Here is the offending example:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.884871,-8.944963&spn=0.00472,0.008014&z=17

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 10:42am

That does look a bit sharp from the map. Does the ramp merge with the hard shoulder, ie could you keep accelerating along that if necessary?

Gregor Samsa · 08-10-2009 10:46am

Anan1 wrote: »

Is it possible to bring speed onto the beginning of the ramp? Is there a good view of the motorway from the ramp? Does the ramp end in a merge with the hard shoulder, or is there some kind of a barrier? Whatever you do, never get into a situation where you have to come to a halt at the end of the ramp.

I use the M18 daily (junction 13, the Tulla Road one, mentioned in kodute's post).

It's not possible to build up any speed before the beginning of the ramp. There's a 90 degree turn as you come down the hill from the Tulla road, and you need to take it slow. Then you're straight onto the ramp (about 100m long). After the ramp, you're straight into the hard shoulder (no barrier), but as anyone who knows the road will know, the hard shoulder on the M18 is very narrow - just wide enough for a car.

Visibility of the motorway from the ramp is relatively OK on junction 13 if you're heading southbound, but very bad northbound (there's an embankment blocking your view until you're actually in the merging lane).

It's very like the slip lanes on Italian autostrada (where the limit is 130km/h) but it Italy they tend to have much better visibility, and more gentle bends, which makes all the difference. The RSA, NRA and Clare Co. Co. claim that the junctions are within spec, but anyone who has used them knows that they are very dangerous. It just isn't possible to get up to any decent speed given the length of them and the sharp turn just before.

Like I say, I use the junction every day, and I absolutely floor it on the slip lane when merging, it's the only way to do it safely. I still haven't managed to get past 80 km/h before I run out of lane. Luckily, the road isn't too busy most times.

Twice I've been caught out with heavy traffic where it's been impossible to merge in time. Both times I've had to keep going onto the (narrow) hard shoulder (where I shouldn't be on a motorway) and hope for the best.

There will be people killed on it.

(There was someone killed at junction 13 the night before last, but reports are that one of the cars involved was travelling the wrong way, so that's a seperate issue).

BigEejit · 08-10-2009 10:47am

Possibly, but it is a hard shoulder and there could be a broken down car there

-Chris- · 08-10-2009 10:51am

robbie_998 wrote: »

well kinda because the first two lanes are classed by the RSA and ROTR as Driving lanes, third lane for overtaking only.

Show me where:

From: http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html
Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.
Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.
On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.
Lane 3

If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you've finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.
You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:
a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,

a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or

a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

You may use it, however, in exceptional circumstances when you cannot proceed in the inner lane because of a blockage ahead. You may also use it if you are at a location on a motorway where a speed limit of 80km/h or less applies.

Again, what you're doing seems right, but your interpretation of it seems wrong (and I may stand to be corrected too!).

You may stay in the middle lane where the left lane is going slower i.e. when you're overtaking them. It's a lane for overtaking.

dudara · 08-10-2009 11:04am

BigEejit wrote: »

Possibly, but it is a hard shoulder and there could be a broken down car there

As happened to me back in August. Granted it wasn't near an on/off ramp, but I got rear-ended while parked on the hard shoulder of the N7.

robbie_998 was right in his intentions, but his wording was initially all wrong, leading to all this confusion.

3 lanes is a simple extension of 2 lanes, yet a fair amount of drivers are incapable of making this extrapolation.

robbie_998 · 08-10-2009 11:10am

dudara wrote: »

As happened to me back in August. Granted it wasn't near an on/off ramp, but I got rear-ended while parked on the hard shoulder of the N7.

robbie_998 was right in his intentions, but his wording was initially all wrong, leading to all this confusion.

3 lanes is a simple extension of 2 lanes, yet a fair amount of drivers are incapable of making this extrapolation.

thank you,

i know what i am doing on the roads is right, its my interpretation of it thats kinda putting everybody off alright

-Chris-

your driving at a set speed which just happens to be faster than everybody in lane 1 but slower than lane 3 in which you lane (2) becomes your driving lane.

there will always be slow moving traffic in lane 1 i.e. trucks, vans etc. and inedibly cars will go faster than them.

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 11:12am

dudara wrote: »

robbie_998 was right in his intentions, but his wording was initially all wrong, leading to all this confusion.

I dunno, dudara, I might have run with that until (after many detailed explanations from other posters) he posted this:

robbie_998 wrote: »

now if im driving alone and there is nobody around for miles then its really just a matter of which lane would be nicer to drive in and in which case i can drive in both lanes, so if there is nobody around i cannot use the third lane because i will not be overtaking anybody. yes ?

robbie_998 · 08-10-2009 11:15am

Anan1 wrote: »

I dunno, dudara, I might have run with that until (after many detailed explanations from other posters) he posted this:

i know that could be wrong but at the same time im not gonna go to the first lane only to find a slow car/truck etc. up ahead then back out into the middle lane and back into the first lane after passing them out, its unnecessary on the roads.

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 11:17am

robbie_998 wrote: »

i know that could be wrong but at the same time im not gonna go to the first lane only to find a slow car/truck etc. up ahead then back out into the middle lane and back into the first lane after passing them out, its unnecessary on the roads.

I rest my case.

R.O.R · 08-10-2009 11:18am

robbie_998 wrote: »

i know that could be wrong but at the same time im not gonna go to the first lane only to find a slow car/truck etc. up ahead then back out into the middle lane and back into the first lane after passing them out, its unnecessary on the roads.

It's the correct way to drive. While you aren't bothering to do the above and I come up in the inside lane quicker than you, I'm going to have to change from inside to outside lane to get past you dawdling in the middle lane, then all the way back to the inside lane.

Have to do this every morning on the M50.

Just use the left lane if there is room to drive in it.

robbie_998 · 08-10-2009 11:18am

Anan1 wrote: »

I rest my case.

well no, cos traffic in that lane must be slower than me for me to catch up with them while im in the second lane so im still in the right and not doing anything wrong.

R.O.R · 08-10-2009 11:20am

robbie_998 wrote: »

well no, cos traffic in that lane must be slower than me for me to catch up with them while im in the second lane so im still in the right and not doing anything wrong.

Why not appraoch the slower moving car, in the inside lane, pull out to the second lane to overtake, then pull back in.

That is the way those of us who can drive properly on motorways do it.

Anan1 · 08-10-2009 11:21am

robbie_998 wrote: »

well no, cos traffic in that lane must be slower than me for me to catch up with them while im in the second lane so im still in the right and not doing anything wrong.

Yes you are, you should only be in the middle lane while overtaking - not because you think you may have to overtake something at some undefined point in the future. If the left lane is clear then drive in it.

Motorway Driving - Education.

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