Motorway Driving - Education.

BigEejit

robbie_998 wrote: »

....................
there will always be slow moving traffic in lane 1 i.e. trucks, vans etc. and inedibly cars will go faster than them.

hehehehe :pac:

Dont do it normally, but that one is funny

ceepeedee

robbie_998 wrote: »

i know that could be wrong but at the same time im not gonna go to the first lane only to find a slow car/truck etc. up ahead then back out into the middle lane and back into the first lane after passing them out, its unnecessary on the roads.

That sounds suspiciously like a definition of overtaking to me, and I'm pretty confident the rules of the road has some information on this...

-Chris-

robbie_998 wrote: »

well no, cos traffic in that lane must be slower than me for me to catch up with them while im in the second lane so im still in the right and not doing anything wrong.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGH!!!


I think my head is going to explode!!!

dudara

Anan1 wrote: »

I dunno, dudara, I might have run with that until (after many detailed explanations from other posters) he posted this:

I do agree with you Anan1. His later comment highlights that confusion in his message. He is sending out mixed signals.

robbie_998 wrote:

i know that could be wrong but at the same time im not gonna go to the first lane only to find a slow car/truck etc. up ahead then back out into the middle lane and back into the first lane after passing them out, its unnecessary on the roads.

robbie_998, even though you consider it wrong, what you described there is correct motorway driving. You pull back into the leftmost lane that is available to you, until it is time to overtake again.

I think though what you are describing here is the case of pulling back for a short while in the leftmost lane. This is down to the individual driver's definition of what constitutes a string of traffic.

robbie_998

R.O.R wrote: »

It's the correct way to drive. While you aren't bothering to do the above and I come up in the inside lane quicker than you, I'm going to have to change from inside to outside lane to get past you dawdling in the middle lane, then all the way back to the inside lane.

Have to do this every morning on the M50.

Just use the left lane if there is room to drive in it.

well if thats the case that im driving slower than the first lane, you dont necessarily have too go to the far lane to get by me, if i am in the wrong you just stick to your lane and overtake me in that lane, then i simply shouldnt be there, but were not talking about that directly

R.O.R wrote: »

Why not appraoch the slower moving car, in the inside lane, pull out to the second lane to overtake, then pull back in.

That is the way those of us who can drive properly on motorways do it.

well like i said, there are 3 lanes and if someone wants to over take me then theres that third lane, i dont see the point in changing lanes constantly.

Anan1 wrote: »

Yes you are, you should only be in the middle lane while overtaking - not because you think you may have to overtake something at some undefined point in the future. If the left lane is clear then drive in it.

again: well like i said, there are 3 lanes and if someone wants to over take me then theres that third lane, i dont see the point in changing lanes constantly.

stealthyspeeder

robbie_998 wrote: »

i know that could be wrong but at the same time im not gonna go to the first lane only to find a slow car/truck etc. up ahead then back out into the middle lane and back into the first lane after passing them out, its unnecessary on the roads.

Thats being lazy and not using the road as its designed to be used, its lots of people having this attitude which causes the congestion on the M50.

robbie_998 wrote: »

well no, cos traffic in that lane must be slower than me for me to catch up with them while im in the second lane so im still in the right and not doing anything wrong.

Yes.... and when you get to it, you overtake it and pull back in!

stealthyspeeder

robbie_998 wrote: »

well if thats the case that im driving slower than the first lane, you dont necessarily have too go to the far lane to get by me, if i am in the wrong you just stick to your lane and overtake me in that lane, then i simply shouldnt be there, but were not talking about that directly


well like i said, there are 3 lanes and if someone wants to over take me then theres that third lane, i dont see the point in changing lanes constantly.

again: well like i said, there are 3 lanes and if someone wants to over take me then theres that third lane, i dont see the point in changing lanes constantly.

If you sit there and hog the middle lane, the cars behind you that want to go faster, have to sit behind you until the overtaking lane becomes clear instead of driving on, The cars going faster than them, have to wait until the cars overtaking you haave finished and done the right thing (moved left) so your reducing the speed of the movement of traffic on the motorway and bringing it down to your speed or slightly over your speed by your actions. And if everyone did this, the speed of the motorways traffic will reduce to near that of the slowest moving driver. This is the casue of congestion, and slower than normal moving traffic. However if everyone uses it properly, traffic is free to move at the natural speed of the drivers.

-Chris-

robbie_998 wrote: »

well if thats the case that im driving slower than the first lane, you dont necessarily have too go to the far lane to get by me, if i am in the wrong you just stick to your lane and overtake me in that lane, then i simply shouldnt be there, but were not talking about that directly

NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo.

You're now suggesting that R.O.R undertake you (if I understand correctly) so that you can stay in your lane.

You are displaying a fundamental lack of understanding of the rules of the road.

peasant

-Chris- wrote: »

You are displaying a fundamental lack of understanding of the rules of the road.

and the really scary part about this is that he just passed his driving test.

Which brings us back neatly to the topic of this thread ...education is definety lacking. Not just that of drivers who learnt to drive pre-motorways, but freshly baked ones as well.

Frightening, really.

kodute

phutyle wrote: »

The RSA, NRA and Clare Co. Co. claim that the junctions are within spec, but anyone who has used them knows that they are very dangerous. It just isn't possible to get up to any decent speed given the length of them and the sharp turn just before.
...

There will be people killed on it.

(There was someone killed at junction 13 the night before last, but reports are that one of the cars involved was travelling the wrong way, so that's a seperate issue).

I'd be curious to know what spec they conform to. Have you contacted any of those organisations about this phutyle?

PS. sorry for going off topic on the 'educating robbie_998' thread

Gregor Samsa

robbie_998 wrote: »

well no, cos traffic in that lane must be slower than me for me to catch up with them while im in the second lane so im still in the right and not doing anything wrong.

Ah, robbie! After your initial poorly worded post, you clarified the statement, and you were doing fine - and then this! You're letting yourself down!

Catching up with a car in the distance is not overtaking. There is no catching up lane. Catching up isn't mentioned in the ROTR. Forget about catching up.

You do your driving in the left lane, then you come across a slower moving vehicle and overtake and go back into the left lane once you've passed whatever traffic you've overtaken and there's a safe space to merge back into the left, then you carry on and drive until you come to the next slow moving vehicle, and move to the right and overtake.

Rinse and repeat.

It doesn't matter if there's 2 lanes or 10 lanes. Drive left, overtake right, then drive left again.

Zube

robbie_998 wrote: »

well if thats the case that im driving slower than the first lane, you dont necessarily have too go to the far lane to get by me, if i am in the wrong you just stick to your lane and overtake me in that lane, then i simply shouldnt be there, but were not talking about that directly

Those of us who understand the rules of the road know that we are not allowed to pass you on the left. That's precisely why you are supposed to keep to the left.

However, I think all of us experienced drivers will admit that we have passed a few robbies up the inside from time to time, because it's too frustrating to sit behind yet another driver who just doesn't get it.

Gregor Samsa

kodute wrote: »

I'd be curious to know what spec they conform to. Have you contacted any of those organisations about this phytyle?

PS. sorry for going off topic on the 'educating robbie_998' thread

I haven't personally, but there have been articles on the local papers (Clare Champion and Clare People) about it since before the bypass opened, and all have quioted the NRA and Clare Co. Co. as saying the junctions are within spec.

here's one:

http://www.clarepeople.com/index.php/This-Weeks-News/m18-creates-a-new-fast-track-for-local-motorists.html

While the opening up of the road as a motorway is welcomed by motorists, concerns regarding safety continue to be raised.
Chief among those with ongoing questions is Ennis County and Town Councillor Johnny Flynn (FG).
While the councillor is happy that the motorway is up to standard, he believes that the slip roads are not adequate - particularly the Barefield and Tulla exits.
Despite assurances from the National Roads Authority (NRA) that it carried out a series of safety tests on the new motorway, the former fire chief and civil engineer said the geometic designs are too short in length to exit and access the motorway. He said this is especially difficult for commercial vehicles.

(As for the original topic of the thread, I think educating robbie_998 might be a lost cause at this point.)

-Chris-

peasant wrote: »

Which brings us back neatly to the topic of this thread ...education is definety lacking. Not just that of drivers who learnt to drive pre-motorways, but freshly baked ones as well.

Thanks for pointing that out!

We're all way OT here, can we get back to discussing Dummy's OP about how education should be happening etc?


Also, can everyone involved in the pro-Robbie_998 vs anti-Robbie_998 debate please park it?
Robbie_998, if you require further instructions with regards to the rules of the road (either to get correction, or to get confirmation that you're correct), can you please consult your driving instructor or some other suitably qualified person.

Akrasia

chatterpillar wrote: »

And imagine this situation. You have a three lane motorway with heavy traffic. Every single driver is obeying the rules and driving at 120kph (big assumption, I know, but just accept it for the purpose of illustration!) Therefore there is no need for anyone to overtake anyone else.

That wouldn't happen because trucks and busses are restricted to different speed limits (55mph i think)

So are you saying that every single driver should remain in the left hand lane, thus making the tailback twice as long? And leaving the second and third lanes empty? No, in my opinion, both the first and second lanes should be used equally although no one is actually overtaking.*

The outside lanes are for overtaking. If you're driving at the same speed as the cars in front, you should be behind them, not beside them (unless you're about to exit the motorway in which case you should always be on the inside lane). If everyone drove at 120kph on all 3 lanes you'd have an extremely difficult and dangerous time getting back to the inside lane if you had to exit the motorway, and when you get to the exit of the motorway there would be chaos as cars merged into a single lane at high speed

Akrasia

BrianD3 wrote: »

Lack of indication is not a major issue in my opinion as if a driver is coming down an on ramp it's not too ambiguous where they're going.

But what is a major annoyance is lazy, sloppy, SLOW inconsiderate merging.

If drivers on the mainline move lanes to faciliate mergers, it only encourages this sloppinesss. Also, I bet if you gathered a group of people off the street and asked them who has priority when traffic is merging onto a M-way, around 50% will say that the merging traffic has priority :rolleyes:

It's a catch 22. If you're merging into heavy traffic you should match your speed with theirs when merging, but if the cars on the inside lane refuse to allow you to enter out of spite or to make some kind of point, you might be forced to slow down when you should be smoothly joining traffic.

The Rule of the road in this case should be that drivers ought to show courtesy to other road users at all times, making room for them to enter the motorway when appropriate (either by moving to another lane, or by slowing down when you see them trying to merge in front of you)

Drivers also expect others to move lanes in other situations eg someone has stopped in the hard shoulder to answer their mobile :rolleyes: and when they want to rejoin they can't be arsed waiting for a suitable gap in the traffic. So they just barge out and expect others to change lanes.

this is just bad driving, but your responsibility is not to educate them in patience or good driving, it is to ensure your own safety and the safety of other road users by anticipating their bad behaviour and making room if necessary.

Anyhow I generally do not change lanes to faciliate merging cars unless I think there is a high chance of a collision. I usually assert myself by holding my position and speed and keeping my hand close to the horn should any dawdling numpty look like he's going to do something stupid.

Based on that, you are a danger to yourself and others on the road. What is a "high chance" of a collision? 70% You might be happy with those odds, but I certanly am not and would prefer if you drove in a manner that meant there was an extremely low chance of a collision, and kept your hands on the controls, not the horn.

kuro_man

stealthyspeeder

^^^^ Ha Ha Ha Brilliant!:D:D:D

Akrasia

chatterpillar wrote: »

So to clarify, as long as I'm not the bloomin eejit at the front of the queue, I'm correct in staying where I am even though I'm not overtaking? We're in agreement then?

Driving in slow congested traffic is different from driving in free flowing traffic. You are permitted to overtake on the inside in a traffic jam, (if your lane happens to be moving faster) you are not permitted to overtake on the inside in free flowing traffic.

robbie_998

ok i want to just clear something up here, when i said i can stay in the middle lane and you can overtake me on the inner lane, i ment in heavy traffic !!!

were told not to change lanes in heavy traffic so if its a case one lane is moving faster than the other and the faster moving lane just happens to be the left lane it dosent matter cos were told to stay in out own lane in such traffic until it goes back to normal again.

The Big Red Button

Just a quick final word on the whole middle lane thing - I won't post about it again, I promise!

I think most of us here are probably in agreement with the correct way to drive on a three lane motorway, we're probably just wording it differently. Basically it's OK to drive in the second lane as long as there's slower moving traffic in the first lane. And I do still think that, on a practical basis, in very heavy dense traffic that's all moving at roughly the same speed, if you're in the second lane then it would probably create unnecessary hassle to try to get back into the first lane, unless of course you're exiting. But you should only ever be in the third lane when you're actually overtaking. And similarly on a two-lane motorway, you should only ever be in the second lane when you're actually overtaking.

Robbie, I was backing you up at first, I'm sorry but I can't agree with your last few posts. If you're in the second lane and there's space in the first lane, you should move back into the first lane until you catch up with the slower moving traffic up ahead. You're very young to be getting into lazy habits like that! Basically as a general rule, you should stay as left as possible as much as possible. And if the motorway is empty, you don't just pick and choose where you want to drive, always stick to the left lane (unless there is actually a real possibility of deer attacks! )

The Big Red Button

robbie_998 wrote: »

ok i want to just clear something up here, when i said i can stay in the middle lane and you can overtake me on the inner lane, i ment in heavy traffic !!!

It's still undertaking and it's still illegal, AFAIK

robbie_998 wrote: »

were told not to change lanes in heavy traffic so if its a case one lane is moving faster than the other and the faster moving lane just happens to be the left lane it dosent matter cos were told to stay in out own lane in such traffic until it goes back to normal again.

But you see the reason the first lane ends up moving faster than the second, is because of drivers unnecessarily remaining in the second. If you're driving and a situation like this develops, you should try to get back into the first lane as soon as possible.

Akrasia

kodute wrote: »

Educate me on this one...
On the M18 as its now known there are a number of small exits to Ennis/tulla/barefield. These exits have corresponding entrance ramps where it is impossible to get up to 120kph (or even 100kph) in the >100m of lane provided.
This means indicating and pulling into the left lane at ~60kph

According to the RSA ad I should be at 120kph before attempting to merge, if anyone else is familiar with this stretch you'll know you need alot more road to do that especially on the barefield entrance.

This brings me to these questions.
What would you do in the situation if the road was busy? Stop and wait or merge at 60kph
Is there a regulation somewhere that says motorways must have certain length on/off ramps?

You should never stop on a motorway off ramp unless there's an obstruction. that's suicide The drivers on the left lane of the motorway should allow you room to merge, if they're idiots, you may have to drive on the hard shoulder until you have picked enough speed to merge (though this would almost never happen as most drivers would either pull right to let you on, or slow down to allow you onto the road.)

I agree, the tulla exit onto the M18 is way way too short, and it's also much too short on the off ramp from the motorway where you really ought to be slowing down before you to the exit ramp (due to the severity of the bend at the exit)

robbie_998

chatterpillar wrote: »

It's still undertaking and it's still illegal, AFAIK

i dont think its illegal to undertake if traffic is slow in the right lane.

chatterpillar wrote: »

But you see the reason the first lane ends up moving faster than the second, is because of drivers unnecessarily remaining in the second. If you're driving and a situation like this develops, you should try to get back into the first lane as soon as possible.

that can be true too.all i know is the last time a situation like that happened was on a 3 lane dual carriage way and someone in the third lane crashed into someone in front of him, so the second lane was getting all the traffic from the third lane slowing us down, then the first lane started to get all the traffic from both the second and third lane, so i dunno there now.

-Chris-

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!

Thread closed because it's way OT and not showing signs of getting better, because it's circular and not getting any better, and because robbie_998's all alone in his views and not getting rehabilitated.