Single father wins order overturning adoption

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think it's pretty low but then again I think that mother's who won't remove any doubt with a paternity test to be pretty low too.

Isn't there a way to have a birthcert amended if there has been a paternity test through the courts?

Yes there is. You can even have it ammended if the dna test hasnt been done through the courts but through some home or doctors test.

Obviously, I was talking about after paternity has been established. Its only vicious and sadistic after it has been established and s/he still wont do it.

Nevyn

I fail to see how it's "vicious and sadistic", I do see why a person may not want there to be a legal record connecting them to a child they didn't want, that is why birthcerts of children who were adopted are often sealed.

In terms of the impact it may have on a child growing up, I know several people who's father didnt' want to know and having a name on or not on a birth cert didn't help, it is as I see it up to the remaining parent to prepare for when the child does start asking questions, how they handle that, answer the questions can have an huge impact on a child's sense of self and self confidence.

Yes it's an added difficulty but it is not unsurmountable if the parent has managed to work through thier own personal issues and feelings by the time that starts.

ash23

As far as I know (and it's a while since I looked into it), if I had proof of paternity then I could get her birth cert amended. However I'd have to find him, drag him to court and then do that.

I don't want to drag any man kicking and screaming into my daughters life.

Equally though, if he gets an attack of conscience, he would have to work hard to make amends and if he were consistant and proved himself over time then I would be happy for him to have rights to her.

And just to add, that my daughter is fully aware of her "father" and I have always answered any questions she has had. It hasn't seemed to have much of an impact on her as of yet. I'm hoping that so long as I continue to encourage her to talk to me and I answer her questions openly and honestly without bitterness, then she will grow up to be secure in herself.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

I fail to see how it's "vicious and sadistic", I do see why a person may not want there to be a legal record connecting them to a child they didn't want, that is why birthcerts of children who were adopted are often sealed.

What? They get their dna test just to make sure its theirs before they abandon it? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

The laws around that are changing if not already changed. A child has a right to know where they come from. A blank on a birthcert is a lie the way silence can be alie.

Im surprised you take this view when you appear to be into childrens rights.

Besides which on an Irish birthcert the name does not legally bind them.

Nevyn

I do belive in the rights of a child to know who they are and where they come from but
as I have already said about adopted children and other children which I knew grew up just fine with out acknowledgement of one/all of thier biological parents due to the wonderful efforts and support of thier hands on custodial parents.

A name on a birth cert is not going for force someone to be a good parent and in thier child's life, if a person does not want to go and sign the register then they can't be forced.

Personally I would be focusing my time and engery on the child/ren rather then being upset over the fact I could not force another adult to do something they don't want to.

I have tried 3 times to get the father of my kids to sign the papers to make sure he has guardianship, all he had to do was sign them and he can't be bothered, I can't make him,
he doesn't see it as important so I've done all that I can.

Like the saying goes grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

metrovelvet

^ Actually you can force them through the courts.

Its all very nice that you think that but it doesnt change the nature of the act.

ash23

^^ But it does change how the kids feel about it.
I don't really harbour any hard feeling about her dad so I can be neutral when my daughter asks about him. I think this in turn makes her less angry about what he has done. She just accepts it as something that has happened and thats just the way it is.
I think if I were angry and fighting to have him involved it would affect me and her in a negative way as I would be giving vibes that what he was doing was wrong and she would pick this up and feel rejected.

My ex who helped raise her, well, he cut back on access big time. And i fought and fought. And my daughter was always upset and asking about him and why he didn't want her.
As soon as I realised I couldn't make him do any more than he wanted, it all settled down. She was less upset, asking less questions. Now she just accepts the (measly) time he offers her and she enjoys it without feeling too deprived.

Eoineo

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think it's pretty low but then again I think that mother's who won't remove any doubt with a paternity test to be pretty low too.

Isn't there a way to have a birthcert amended if there has been a paternity test through the courts?

Yes, once you have a maintenance or access order in the father's name then you can present a copy of this order in the registration office to request his name be added to the birth cert. You don't need him present to do this because the order against him is seen as an admission of parenting.

Likewise a father can add his name to a birthcert at a later date once he has the same documents without having the mother present.

metrovelvet

The point is that children born of marriage are not at the same risks as their fathers do not have the privalges the unmarried fathers do. They have to put their names on the birthcert and take up guardianship.

Nevyn

What 'risks' exacty does a child who only has one parent on thier birthcert face?

I know one person who due to a clerical error has no mother listed on his birth cert at all only his father and its hasn't had any impact on him at all.

metrovelvet

^ I am sorry to hear that you endorse the discrimintion placed on children born out of wedlock with their fathers having the options of not certifying their identities or guardians. So much for childrens rights.

Nevyn

Thank you for providing me with my morning chuckle.
Personally if I was in charge of the system for registering new borns I would make dna screening a mandatory part of the process with samples form both parents gotten under court order if needed by them or close relatives and thier birth, maternity and paternity recorder that way, being married or not would not have anything to do with it.

You haven't answered my question metrovelvet:

What 'risks' exacty does a child who only has one parent on thier birthcert face?

A child can have all the rights in the world afforded to them and both names on thier birthcert and know thier family tree back 500 years but it means bugger all to them compared to a hug and kind words of encouragement from the people they love who are in thier lives.

I would honestly think anyone who gets that bent of of shape over the lack of a name on a birth cert is doing so over thier own issues, I know it was someting my godmother struggled with as she set about raising her own daughter when she became a single parent 25 years ago and yes there was discrimination and hassle with drs and schools over it but thankfully Ireland has moved on from then and non married parents and mixed families, blended families and families with only one parent are par for the course.

ash23

I have to say, it hasn't caused an issue for me in the last 7 years, his name not being on the birth cert. I've gotten passports etc and it's never been an issue and I don't really forsee it being one.

The only thing it would affect imo, is inheritence rights and in that instance, a court case, dna tests etc would be needed if inheritence was contested.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thank you for providing me with my morning chuckle.
Personally if I was in charge of the system for registering new borns I would make dna screening a mandatory part of the process with samples form both parents gotten under court order if needed by them or close relatives and thier birth, maternity and paternity recorder that way, being married or not would not have anything to do with it.

You haven't answered my question metrovelvet:



A child can have all the rights in the world afforded to them and both names on thier birthcert and know thier family tree back 500 years but it means bugger all to them compared to a hug and kind words of encouragement from the people they love who are in thier lives.

I would honestly think anyone who gets that bent of of shape over the lack of a name on a birth cert is doing so over thier own issues, I know it was someting my godmother struggled with as she set about raising her own daughter when she became a single parent 25 years ago and yes there was discrimination and hassle with drs and schools over it but thankfully Ireland has moved on from then and non married parents and mixed families, blended families and families with only one parent are par for the course.

Documents are important. They do not mean bugger all especially when furture generations want to know where they come from, just ask geneological socitiies, or people trying to get citizenship for their children, or even medical procedures. Sorry, but they are sometimes, far more important than a kiss and a hug.

Nevyn

You still haven't answered my question metrovelvet:

What 'risks' exactly does a child who only has one parent on their birthcert face?

It certainly has not had a negative impact on the lifes of the many people I know who only have one.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

You still haven't answered my question metrovelvet:



It certainly has not had a negative impact on the lifes of the many people I know who only have one.

You live and deal with a purely matriarchal culture. Not everyone does.

I have already listed the risks, not knowing who you are, not getting citizenship you are entitled to, not getting medical treatments, not having a legacy.

If it isnt written down, it didnt happen.

You also need to take on board the huge symbolic value of the blank space.

The fact is this does not happen to legitimate children. It is discrimination.

Nevyn

metrovelvet wrote: »

You live and deal with a purely matriarchal culture. Not everyone does.

Thank you for my second laugh out loud moment on boards today.

metrovelvet wrote: »

I have already listed the risks, not knowing who you are,

We are all still figuring out who we are, whom are bio parents are/were is not the sum, total and end all of that, even if they are name on a birth cert.

metrovelvet wrote: »

not getting citizenship you are entitled to,

Again I an see how that may be pragmatical in terms of how a child born in Ireland now has the citizenship of it's mother if there is no other name on the birth cert rather then irish nationality and is no longer entitled to be in the country as a resident but many countries do that the same way, sure america will say come back when you are 18 if you parents are non nationals.

metrovelvet wrote: »

not getting medical treatments,

Can you elaborate on that one please.

metrovelvet wrote: »

not having a legacy.

If paternity can be proven even with out a name on a birthcert then a person can still seek redress from the estate of a parent but tbh that is a sense of 'entitlement' I do not understand.

metrovelvet wrote: »

If it isnt written down, it didnt happen.

hmmmm so anything which wasn't recorded and written down didn't happen?
That's just a bit daft.

metrovelvet wrote: »

You also need to take on board the huge symbolic value of the blank space.

It only has value that people assign to it due to their own background and/or hang ups.
In the real day to day of a child's life as they grow and learn it has very little impact unless they have someone making a big deal out of it.

My cousin's father is not named on her birthcert, he grew up on the same road as her mother, both families knew that he was the father, she knew his sisters who are her aunts, she visited as a child his mother who only lived a few doors down from her other Grandmother.

He got her height, smile, dodgy kneecaps from him and she knows it, she knows who her Dad is and that he tought he was too young to be a father and had nothing do to with her what so ever.

Just because his name is not on her birthcert that does not mean she doesn't know who he is.
She grew up to have a BA, MA and will be getting married shortly and has had a good life thanks to my aunt and the rest of the family, the blank space has had no value on impact on her.

metrovelvet wrote: »

The fact is this does not happen to legitimate children. It is discrimination.

As I understand it currently both parents have to sign for to register the birth of a child and a father even a married one can refuse to be listed on the birthcert, esp in the case where he's not with the mother but still technically married.

metrovelvet

Ok thaed you're right .

Nevyn

Parental 'rights' nearly always seem to be a mine field, and far too much of it seems to be one adult trying to impose something on the other adult for their own reasons rather then anything to do with the child.

The whole family law system need to be razed to the ground and started over from scratch and be a lot more child centric, cos there are too many of the wrong battles being fought and I think a lot of it is to do with the fact it's not an advocate for the child bringing a court order for access, visitation, maintenance but it falls to one of the parents to do it where there may already be a lot of animosity.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Parental 'rights' nearly always seem to be a mine field, and far too much of it seems to be one adult trying to impose something on the other adult for their own reasons rather then anything to do with the child.

The whole family law system need to be razed to the ground and started over from scratch and be a lot more child centric, cos there are too many of the wrong battles being fought and I think a lot of it is to do with the fact it's not an advocate for the child bringing a court order for access, visitation, maintenance but it falls to one of the parents to do it where there may already be a lot of animosity.

Sorry but I would take anything you say about child centred policy with a siberian sized grain of salt given that you think it ok for illegitimate children not to have the same rights as legitimate ones, based on the choices or lack thereof of their fathers depending on their marital status.

Nevyn

Under irish law there is no longer such a thing as an illegitimate child all children have the same inheritance rights one paternity has been established and there is nothing stopping a unmarried mother giving a child any surname she wishes.

As has been stated that a maintenance order or a dna test results can be used to establish paternity so what are other differences you are banging on about?

That the courts refuse to force a non married father to take up guardianship?

I have never been married to the father of my child so please point out to me how that automatically means my children do not have rights or access to their Dad?

metrovelvet

Your children do not have another guardian to make medical decisions for them or to stop you from making dangerous ones.

Your children do not automatically go to their father should you die.

Your children would not be entitled to another citizenship should their father be from another country.

Your children do not have another guardian to make religious decisions for them or to stop you from making questionable ones, should you decide to.

And as smcarrick pointed out in another thread on PI recently, illegitimacy is still alive and well in legal language.

Your children have one protector, not two, unlike legitimate children.

Nevyn

Guardianship of a child can be granted to another adult so that a child has more then one and that does not have to be the father. I know of cases were grandparents were made legal guardians or siblings of the single parent who were made guardians, guardianship is not just for parents.

I know well that my children will not be given to their Dad if I was to die and have already made provision in my will for what is to happen if needs be.

So all of the above is moot other then the possibility of dual citizenship it is even applicable for the countries invovled.

metrovelvet

Well thats fine for you. But not for all the other children in this country.

The rest of it is not moot as in health and religious decisions. Not moot at all. If something happened to you or you were unreachable, no one could make a decision for you, not only that but if you were cuckoo enough to make a questionable one, their father cant help them. They are vulnerable. Perhaps this suits you though.

No wonder you advocate for automatic guardianship when your [wrongly based imo] opinion of it is that it means very little. The advocacy itself then also means very little.

Nevyn

Excuse me Metrovelvet I don't think you understood my last post, please re read it.
You can have other adults who are related to the child granted guardianship so that you are not left with a situation were you are the lone guardian.

My children are not vulnerable and temp medical guardianship can be bestowed on thier Dad if needs be when he takes them away for holidays the same way it is done with any child then thier care is given to a teacher/youthleader on a trip away be it for a day, weekend or week and I have always made sure to do this.

I do think guardianship is important but it means bugger all if the parent who gets it is no interested in exercising it at all, the courts can grant it but they can't make anyone use it.

metrovelvet

He still has no power to stop you doing questionable things. But then again he either trusts you or wouldnt be bothered anyhow so doesnt seem to want or need the power to do so.

But we will have to disagree on this. I think that illegitamate children have the same right as legitimate children to look on their birthcert and know their makers and have the same protections and rights.

Nevyn

What do you mean by questionable things?
He could still make a complaint under the child protection act the same as any married father could do and in some cases has had cause to do.

If a child is born in ireland and paternity has been proven/acknowledged it's already been stated that the father's name can be added to the birth cert.

Children born out of marriage can and do have the same right they are just not automatic, should the be automatic? that is an intresting question as to the putting such a system in place, knowing this country they will prolly level the playing feild by making married parents jump through the same hoops as non married parents.

metrovelvet

Right. So for the children born out of wedlock the rights have to be pursued through the courts, but for children born inside of marriage they dont.

Sorry, but it doesnt sounds like its a right. it sounds like its a privelege.

curiousgeorga

ash23 wrote: »

In my own personal circumstances, my daughters father cut contact and chose not to be found when I told him I was pregnant. That was 7 years ago and I haven't heard from him since. He is not on her birthcert, has never met her.

If I'm not mistaken - if you were married, you would not have a problem having your husband adopt your child because her biological father was never named on the birth certificate. Therefore I assume that the father is registered as 'unknown'. Don't know if paternity tests come in to this if the father did surface and decide to contest anything. But without his name on the birth cert then there is nobody to notify if you wanted to have your child adopted!