Winking in Muslim countries

Gordon

I've tried googling this and I can't get a result, so maybe someone here can enlighten me.

Today I winked at a person from my work, essentially a wink that meant 'hello, how are you' from across the room. I think she is from Pakistan. She came up to me after I did that (I didn't even realise I winked at her btw) and said that in muslim countries* a wink denotes a sexual advance to a woman and she was offended by me winking at her. She was very polite about it and said that she was sure I didn't mean it in that way and I didn't know the customs, but in Muslim countries - this is offensive in the workplace.

It's gotten me really self-conscious about smiling at people as I reckon I must smile and give a wink at the same time if I recognise them.

But, I've lived in a Muslim country and haven't heard of this, I've even been winked at by supposed Muslims many a time. Is this a custom in Islam or is it restricted to Pakistan only?

thanks

*she noted the plural 'muslim countries', not just where she was from.

hivizman

In the Qur'an (Surah An-Nur 24:30), the following appears: "Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Allah is aware of what they do." [Pickthall translation] Muslim men are supposed to look directly at women (who are not their wives or otherwise closely related) as little as possible, in order to avoid temptation. They certainly shouldn't wink at unrelated women.

By the way, the next verse imposes the same obligation to lower the gaze on the believing women, and also sets out rules about clothing and behaviour. So perhaps your colleague's reaction was influenced by a feeling of guilt that, if she saw you winking, she couldn't have been lowering her gaze.

It's not just Muslim women who interpret winking as a sexual come-on, incidentally, if this item on the internet is to be believed.

oceanclub

I think a wink can be misunderstood in any culture, to be honest; it really depends on the person. In an office situation - especially with someone you don't know too well (which sounds like the case with this woman) - a nod and a smile might be preferable.

(Wasn't it Monty Python who said "A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!"?

I must admit her reason why you _shouldn't_ do it was a bit hypocritical, though.

P.

cojomo2

Gordon wrote: »

I've tried googling this and I can't get a result, so maybe someone here can enlighten me.

Today I winked at a person from my work, essentially a wink that meant 'hello, how are you' from across the room. I think she is from Pakistan. She came up to me after I did that (I didn't even realise I winked at her btw) and said that in muslim countries* a wink denotes a sexual advance to a woman and she was offended by me winking at her. She was very polite about it and said that she was sure I didn't mean it in that way and I didn't know the customs, but in Muslim countries - this is offensive in the workplace.

It's gotten me really self-conscious about smiling at people as I reckon I must smile and give a wink at the same time if I recognise them.

But, I've lived in a Muslim country and haven't heard of this, I've even been winked at by supposed Muslims many a time. Is this a custom in Islam or is it restricted to Pakistan only?

thanks

*she noted the plural 'muslim countries', not just where she was from.

Did you let her know that Ireland isn't a Muslim country!?

oceanclub

cojomo2 wrote: »

Did you let her know that Ireland isn't a Muslim country!?

This wouldn't be the kind of issue to get into an argument about in an office. I would agree to her request and let it go. Things will proceed in one of two ways:

(a) She's a reasonable person, this is merely a single thing that bugs her, and after this all will be well.
(b) She's an unreasonable person expecting everyone to change their own cultural behaviour in their own country; give her a wide berth and sooner or later she'll piss off enough people to get into trouble.

P.

mickol

Tell her get over it and move on .....what has the world become

dvpower

cojomo2 wrote: »

Did you let her know that Ireland isn't a Muslim country!?

Do countries have religious beliefs nowadays?

Gordon

Actually I live in Scotland but I do think that we should be compassionate of people's sensitivities as much as possible whichever country it is. She has told a number of people that to varying levels of replies apparently, so has pissed off a few people. I think oceanclubs 'a' option is the one, but tbh, I have seen many muslim people wink without being suggestive, simply friendly, so I don't believe the suggestivity - hence the thread.

oceanclub wrote: »

I think a wink can be misunderstood in any culture, to be honest; it really depends on the person. In an office situation - especially with someone you don't know too well (which sounds like the case with this woman) - a nod and a smile might be preferable.

(Wasn't it Monty Python who said "A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!"?

I must admit her reason why you _shouldn't_ do it was a bit hypocritical, though.

P.

Indeed. I have had professional and highly light-hearted conversations with her both. In my experience, and finger on the pulseness, a wink was acceptable for the circumstances.

I saw her the next day, incidentally, and she was really apologetic for the situation as she thought I was taken aback (I was) and noticed that I avoided any eye contact afterwards. She made a point of coming over and talking with me about it and that she didn't mean offence, but the simple fact of a wink is a sexual advance. Fair enough, I just never knew that.

hivizman wrote: »

In the Qur'an (Surah An-Nur 24:30), the following appears: "Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Allah is aware of what they do." [Pickthall translation] Muslim men are supposed to look directly at women (who are not their wives or otherwise closely related) as little as possible, in order to avoid temptation. They certainly shouldn't wink at unrelated women.

By the way, the next verse imposes the same obligation to lower the gaze on the believing women, and also sets out rules about clothing and behaviour. So perhaps your colleague's reaction was influenced by a feeling of guilt that, if she saw you winking, she couldn't have been lowering her gaze.

It's not just Muslim women who interpret winking as a sexual come-on, incidentally, if this item on the internet is to be believed.

I have seen many Muslims not adhering to this, so I'm guessing this is less religious and more area based then? As it seems that the rules don't seem so strict about averting gazes? Maybe she comes from a really strict form of Islam?

Stephentlig

Gordon wrote: »

Actually I live in Scotland but I do think that we should be compassionate of people's sensitivities as much as possible whichever country it is. She has told a number of people that to varying levels of replies apparently, so has pissed off a few people. I think oceanclubs 'a' option is the one, but tbh, I have seen many muslim people wink without being suggestive, simply friendly, so I don't believe the suggestivity - hence the thread.

Indeed. I have had professional and highly light-hearted conversations with her both. In my experience, and finger on the pulseness, a wink was acceptable for the circumstances.

I saw her the next day, incidentally, and she was really apologetic for the situation as she thought I was taken aback (I was) and noticed that I avoided any eye contact afterwards. She made a point of coming over and talking with me about it and that she didn't mean offence, but the simple fact of a wink is a sexual advance. Fair enough, I just never knew that.


I have seen many Muslims not adhering to this, so I'm guessing this is less religious and more area based then? As it seems that the rules don't seem so strict about averting gazes? Maybe she comes from a really strict form of Islam?

well if someone winked at me across the room I would take it as a sexual advance. aye, sounds like shes into ya Gordie boy .:pac::P:D

Victor

Its a misunderstanding. You thought it was harmless. She thought it could only be a come-on.

Just like giving someone a "thumbs up" symbol can be seen as grossly offensive in some cultures.

Stephentlig

Victor wrote: »

Its a misunderstanding. You thought it was harmless. She thought it could only be a come-on.

Just like giving someone a "thumbs up" symbol can be seen as grossly offensive in some cultures.

this is what I always say is that people who dont believe in God and call Religion a lack of freedom, dont understand how caged and controlled they really are by their own culture/government.

hivizman

Gordon wrote: »

I have seen many Muslims not adhering to this, so I'm guessing this is less religious and more area based then? As it seems that the rules don't seem so strict about averting gazes? Maybe she comes from a really strict form of Islam?

I suspect that it's a personal thing (possibly cultural) rather than a religious objection. If she were from a really strict form of Islam, she shouldn't be working in a place where she would be mixing with men. Also, she would observe hijab, and hence she would wear clothes that cover her body except her face and hands.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bit of a cheek. When you go to a different country you shouldn't object to their customs.

Max Power1

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Bit of a cheek. When you go to a different country you shouldn't object to their customs.

Ill adapt to muslim traditions in ireland when european women arent scorned at, in an islam country for not dressing in a sheet hijab

Zaynzma

Max Power1 wrote: »

Ill adapt to muslim traditions in ireland when european women arent scorned at, in an islam country for not dressing in a sheet hijab

what's an Islam country? I know many European women who have walked around countries where the majority population are Muslims, who don't wear sheets and who are not scorned at. I'm sure that information will make you very happy. I am often scorned at in my hijab, here in the UK, just minding my own business walking around in a headscarf and told to get out of our country...

anyway (to the original questioner) I would guess in a Muslim country it would be bad manners or possibly suggestive to wink at a colleague of the opposite sex. I wouldn't expect my Muslim brother to wink at me (brother in the religious sense) but if it was a non-Muslim bloke I wouldn't react in any way and just hope they wouldn't make a habit of it cos if they were constantly winking at me or something I might start to feel uncomfortable. I have never been winked at since I started wearing hijab, although I was occasionally winked at both jokily and suggestively before that.

But I also agree, this isn't a Muslim country so it isn't acceptable to lecture someone over behaviour which is socially acceptable in this society. Could be very irritating and I personally would never do it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Max Power1 wrote: »

Ill adapt to muslim traditions in ireland when european women arent scorned at, in an islam country for not dressing in a sheet hijab

Think you got me wrong mate. I was saying she had a cheek for bringing this up. I think she should accept rather than criticise the customs of the state she's a foreigner in.

If it happened to me I would have replied with "what's your point? this isn't an Islamic country" Though HR would probably flip out thinking a racial incident was headed their way.

Victor

Ok, what if the woman was an athiest, but thought that Gordon winking at her was an inappropriate come-on, because, from her part of the (back)woods, a wink is a comeon?

PDN

wes

I'd be careful of these sorts of things, wouldn't want to run afoul of sexual harrsement laws, even unintentionally. Also, I am pretty sure winking can be seen as a come on in a lot of different cultures, of course, it largely depends on context, but I think common sense would dictate, that its best not to intentionally wink at female co-workers, as you could get yourself in trouble over it.

irishconvert

I just googled winking:

Wikipedia: A wink is a facial expression made by briefly closing one eye.[1] A wink is an informal mode of communication usually signaling, depending on context, sexual attraction or shared hidden knowledge or intent

irishconvert

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Bit of a cheek. When you go to a different country you shouldn't object to their customs.

I didn't know winking was an Irish custom!!

Max Power1 wrote: »

Ill adapt to muslim traditions in ireland when european women arent scorned at, in an islam country for not dressing in a sheet hijab

A European woman can walk around freely in most Muslim countries without a hijab or 'sheet'. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever seen Arab TV? The women on TV don't even wear hijab. Please educate yourself.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Victor wrote: »

Ok, what if the woman was an athiest, but thought that Gordon winking at her was an inappropriate come-on, because, from her part of the (back)woods, a wink is a comeon?

In this case it seems she was aware he wasn't sleazing on her yet still pointed it out. I think thats inappropriate; that she's suggesting he should change his behaviour over the customs in her country

Victor

Ahem

Wikipedia: A wink is a facial expression made by briefly closing one eye.[1] A wink is an informal mode of communication usually signaling, depending on context, sexual attraction or shared hidden knowledge or intent

Bottle_of_Smoke

Victor wrote: »

Ahem

Wikipedia: A wink is a facial expression made by briefly closing one eye.[1] A wink is an informal mode of communication usually signaling, depending on context, sexual attraction or shared hidden knowledge or intent

In Britain/Ireland its fairly commonly used as a normal greeting

komodosp

Did you let her know that Ireland isn't a Muslim country!?

That's hardly an excuse for insulting someone!

But on the other hand, in France, a kiss is a form of greeting. I would think that anyone going to France and refusing to partake in this because we don't do it in Ireland would be a bit unreasonable.

imported_guy

Gordon wrote: »

I've tried googling this and I can't get a result, so maybe someone here can enlighten me.

Today I winked at a person from my work, essentially a wink that meant 'hello, how are you' from across the room. I think she is from Pakistan. She came up to me after I did that (I didn't even realise I winked at her btw) and said that in muslim countries* a wink denotes a sexual advance to a woman and she was offended by me winking at her. She was very polite about it and said that she was sure I didn't mean it in that way and I didn't know the customs, but in Muslim countries - this is offensive in the workplace.

It's gotten me really self-conscious about smiling at people as I reckon I must smile and give a wink at the same time if I recognise them.

But, I've lived in a Muslim country and haven't heard of this, I've even been winked at by supposed Muslims many a time. Is this a custom in Islam or is it restricted to Pakistan only?

thanks

*she noted the plural 'muslim countries', not just where she was from.

umm i wink at women all the time, and men (no homo), in ireland, and im from pakistan, i avoid it there because its frowned upon, but even pakistani people in ireland dont take it personally, my dad does it all the time as well, hes a doctor does it subconsiously/without realising safe to say she was just being a prik, its like winking at a girl in a pub/club is different than winking at a girl youve known for years













OMG MY MATH PROFESSOR WINKS AT ME ALL THE TIME IS HE A PEDO!?!?!?!