Quarterback Power Rankings

eagle eye

D3PO wrote: »

looks like i might have marked orton down too much at #8

I wouldn't rank him at all highly based on that. He still threw an interception, all the credit for that win has to go to the D in the second half and the Offensive play calling. Nothing to do with the quarterback in particular, it was the very well balanced playcalling that worked.

Peyton Manning

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't rank him at all highly based on that. He still threw an interception, all the credit for that win has to go to the D in the second half and the Offensive play calling. Nothing to do with the quarterback in particular, it was the very well balanced playcalling that worked.

Lets be fair, Orton was fantastic tonight. Yes the defence was solid, but Orton deserves his fair share of the plaudits.

davyjose

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't rank him at all highly based on that. He still threw an interception, all the credit for that win has to go to the D in the second half and the Offensive play calling. Nothing to do with the quarterback in particular, it was the very well balanced playcalling that worked.

The INT was basically a hail Mary though, wasn't it? Right at half-time. You can't really call it a bad throw.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't rank him at all highly based on that. He still threw an interception, all the credit for that win has to go to the D in the second half and the Offensive play calling. Nothing to do with the quarterback in particular, it was the very well balanced playcalling that worked.

Really? Seriously Eagle Eye sometimes I wonder about you

As someone already said the INT was a hail mary and if you ask me bad play calling by the O Coord. And you can seriously sit there and say the 350 yards and 2 TDs where down to just play calling and everyone around him. Someone has to execute said plays and Orton was fantastic tonight.

Had it been Tom Brady would we be having this debate?

eagle eye

Archimedes wrote: »

Lets be fair, Orton was fantastic tonight. Yes the defence was solid, but Orton deserves his fair share of the plaudits.

He wasn't fantastic, above average I'd agree with but nothing more.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

He wasn't fantastic, above average I'd agree with but nothing more.

I respect your opinion but I will stand by mine 72.91 completion rate and 330 yards and 2 TDs im going to say that was an excellent night for him.

And again had it been Tom Brady would your stance be different?

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Really? Seriously Eagle Eye sometimes I wonder about you

As someone already said the INT was a hail mary and if you ask me bad play calling by the O Coord. And you can seriously sit there and say the 350 yards and 2 TDs where down to just play calling and everyone around him. Someone has to execute said plays and Orton was fantastic tonight.

Had it been Tom Brady would we be having this debate?

It was 330 yards and a chunk of them came in OT. I'm not dishing the guy at all, I'm just saying that it was a good performance but nothing spectacular. The playcalling played to his strengths which is short to medium range passes. How many long bombs did you see? Did you see him get out of trouble and make completions? Did you see him completing under pressure?
In fairness he had plenty of time and plenty of open receivers.
Above average is what I'd call it but nothing spectacular.

Peyton Manning

eagle eye wrote: »

He wasn't fantastic, above average I'd agree with but nothing more.

Well then I guess we disagree. I do wonder what Kyle Orton has to do to win over his critics. Going 5-0 with an offence that was expected to plummet this season is a hell of an achievement.

eagle eye

Archimedes wrote: »

Well then I guess we disagree. I do wonder what Kyle Orton has to do to win over his critics. Going 5-0 with an offence that was expected to plummet this season is a hell of an achievement.

I'm not a critic of Kyle Orton either. I do think that Cutler is a better QB than him, but I never criticised Orton at any stage. You can look back through this thread and the Denver Broncos thread and you will see that I didn't at any stage say anything negative about Orton.

The only thing I've ever said about him is that he is never going to throw the long pass, he is not accurate when he throws the ball more than 25 yards.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

It was 330 yards and a chunk of them came in OT. I'm not dishing the guy at all, I'm just saying that it was a good performance but nothing spectacular. The playcalling played to his strengths which is short to medium range passes. How many long bombs did you see? Did you see him get out of trouble and make completions? Did you see him completing under pressure?
In fairness he had plenty of time and plenty of open receivers.
Above average is what I'd call it but nothing spectacular.

Ok Dude seriously? You think because he didnt throw long balls he is just average. :rolleyes:

You always play to your QBs strengths that is FACT! Anything else would be pure madness. That is the Key to playcalling and getting the best out of your players especially your QB. To be a good QB you dont need to be launching balls downfield to win games all the time. Just because certain QBs can doesnt make it the norm.

Short to Medium passes when thrown on the money can make or break and drive. Having WR who can find those holes across the middle and the space outside is key and some of the hardest throws you will ever make are into coverage. Which Orton did alot of tonight.

And now onto to your loads of time analogy. Ok Tom Brady 2007 so his season wasnt spectaculor either then? Those 50 TDs werent great? Because our o-line and backs gave him all the time in the world to throw and find his WR. So that analogy by you fails really.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Ok Dude seriously? You think because he didnt throw long balls he is just average. :rolleyes:

You always play to your QBs strengths that is FACT! Anything else would be pure madness. That is the Key to playcalling and getting the best out of your players especially your QB. To be a good QB you dont need to be launching balls downfield to win games all the time. Just because certain QBs can doesnt make it the norm.

Short to Medium passes when thrown on the money can make or break and drive. Having WR who can find those holes across the middle and the space outside is key and some of the hardest throws you will ever make are into coverage. Which Orton did alot of tonight.

And now onto to your loads of time analogy. Ok Tom Brady 2007 so his season wasnt spectaculor either then? Those 50 TDs werent great? Because our o-line and backs gave him all the time in the world to throw and find his WR. So that analogy by you fails really.

You see I'm saying the playcalling on offense is what was key to their scores. I'm saying that Kyle Orton was above average but I refuse to say he was outstanding, if he hit two deep balls then fair enough but he was basically a game manager and not a spectacular thrower on the night.

FFS he averaged under 10 yards per completion.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I'm saying the playcalling on offense is what was key to their scores. I'm saying that Kyle Orton was above average but I refuse to say he was outstanding, if he hit two deep balls then fair enough but he was basically a game manager and not a spectacular thrower on the night.

FFS he averaged under 10 yards per completion.

What difference does that make so basically you are saying unless you throw long you are not a good QB because thats what it reads as. Also what you are saying regardless what numbers a QB puts up he is always going to be just average because he doesnt throw long and basically its all play calling? :rolleyes:

To have an excellent game you dont have to have a spectacular throw or a cannon of an arm. You just need to do the job asked of you and Orton did an outstanding job. He did what was asked of him put up good numbers and won the game.

Im done with this I respect your opinion but I feel your opinion is somewhat tinted by the fact it was the Pats he played and the fact we lost but whatever each to their own. For me I look at it from the aspect I coach the game and if he was my QB and beat the pats by playing the game the way I asked him to and giving him plays I wanted him to execute I would say yes excellent game. But whatever each to their own.

kryogen

Am i really reading an arguement about Kyle Orton?? jesus this game is a must see for me in the highlights now!

Kyle Orton is average, very average, if his team played well and he had a good game tonight then well done, but he is generally not what you would call a stand out performer so maybe if he had a great game tonight it can be acknowledged, applauded and then move on to next week?

its very weird to be debating his merits

Chucky the tree

Archimedes wrote: »

Well then I guess we disagree. I do wonder what Kyle Orton has to do to win over his critics. Going 5-0 with an offence that was expected to plummet this season is a hell of an achievement.

Who expected them to plummet on offence? They have the best Oline in the league, drafted a top notch RB and have one of the best WR duo in the league. I think most people felt they'd get destroyed defensively and Orton would have to ability to throw them back into the game.

Peyton Manning

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Who expected them to plummet on offence? They have the best Oline in the league, drafted a top notch RB and have one of the best WR duo in the league. I think most people felt they'd get destroyed defensively and Orton would have to ability to throw them back into the game.

There was plenty of talk about Orton being an inadequate replacement for Jay Cutler, especially after his nightmare against San Francisco in preseason, there was always going to be concern at the time it would take for Moreno to adapt to the NFL (no different from any other RB) and then he injured his knee, and then there was the whole Marshall fiasco where he was pretty much on the brink of leaving (there were very few people who would have predicted him remaining with the Broncos following his behaviour). It looked like the O-Line was pretty much all they could rely on. Dont get me wrong, they've proved everyone wrong, and a lot of that is down to the defence, but the offence is certainly performing way above the expectations that were held at one stage.

Chanandler Bong

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Who expected them to plummet on offence? They have the best Oline in the league, drafted a top notch RB and have one of the best WR duo in the league. I think most people felt they'd get destroyed defensively and Orton would have to ability to throw them back into the game.

Dont think Giants or Vikings fans would agree with that

D3PO

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't rank him at all highly based on that. He still threw an interception, .

are you having a laugh ? He was playcalled to throw up a 60 yard hail mary as time expired in the first half and it got caught in a jump ball on the goalline. That is an inconsequential int.

what would you do try and score or take a knee and protect your stats

Karlusss

kryogen wrote: »

Am i really reading an arguement about Kyle Orton??

Where've you been for the last week man? We've done nothing else BUT argue about Kyle Orton.

D3PO thinks he's elite, others think he's good, others maintain he's not.

kryogen

Karlusss wrote: »

Where've you been for the last week man? We've done nothing else BUT argue about Kyle Orton.

D3PO thinks he's elite, others think he's good, others maintain he's not.

glad i missed that so!

Lothaar

The problem with comparing QBs is that there is NEVER an even basis for comparision. Stats can be affected by a million factors, for example:
How good is the O-Line?
How good is the runningback or running game?
How many times does the QB pass in a game?
Is he playing from behind a lot?
Is he playing with a lead a lot?
How good is the Head Coach and coaching staff?
What does the QB need to do in the system?
How good are the WRs?
Is he throwing on 3rd and long a lot?
What weather conditions does he play in?

... and so on, and so forth.

The ultimate litmus test of a QB is how well he plays for HIS team. So, a truly outstanding QB could theoretically only throw 20 TDs in a season and pass for 2,000 yards. Perhaps he's so good that the game is sealed early and they turn to the running game. Or perhaps his running game is simply amazing... or maybe the coach is just a running game guy.

Peyton and Tom both do exactly what they need to do for their teams. (Incidentally, I completely disagree that Peyton isn't a clutch player, as he has consistently proven that he can make plays when everything is on the line.) Orton is currently doing exactly what his team needs him to do. Tom and Peyton make chicken salad out of chicken sh1t regularly. But I don't believe stats or Superbowl rings are the measure of a QB. Performance is not measured by what we, the spectators, perceive as success. Take Dan Marino - the quintessential QB, but no ring in sight. Or Elway... ok, he won some Bowls eventually but before he got a ring he was already clearly one of the greatest ever.

You get some QBs who can make amazing plays happen when all should have been lost. Favre has a reputation for that... but he also tends to make a balls of a lot of basic plays, so it balances out. Same could be said for the likes of Randall Cunningham and, more recently, Mike Vick. They could pull stupid plays out of nowhere with pure athleticism, but tended to screw things up by freelancing needlessly.

Has there ever been a QB that could both execute everything perfectly AND regularly make unbelievable plays when it looks like all is lost, the pocket collapsing and a big mill in the backfield? Steve Young possibly fits that bill. And Elway.

davyjose

Lothaar wrote: »

But I don't believe stats or Superbowl rings are the measure of a QB. Performance is not measured by what we, the spectators, perceive as success. Take Dan Marino - the quintessential QB, but no ring in sight.

Last night one of the announcers said that when he looked at Manning play he asked himself if he was looking at the greatest ever. The other announcer then said something about not having enough championships to be at the level of, "a Montana or Bradshaw, or Marino......." His sentence quickly ended in a mumble when he realised how stupid he sounded. i think it was Phil Simms.

I lolled

Karlusss

Pherekydes wrote: »

What has Tom "someone brushed off my leg" Brady done so far this year to deserve #3?

Update:

"Brady finished 29 of 34 with 380 yards and a career-high six touchdowns before he was replaced by rookie QB Brian Hoyer on New England's second drive in the third quarter."

Maybe some day Belichick'll leave him in and we'll see what a 100-0 game looks like.

DonkeyPokerTour

Karlusss wrote: »

Update:

"Brady finished 29 of 34 with 380 yards and a career-high six touchdowns before he was replaced by rookie QB Brian Hoyer on New England's second drive in the third quarter."

Maybe some day Belichick'll leave him in and we'll see what a 100-0 game looks like.

One swallow does not a summer make.

Sure he had a great game, however so did Drew Breese.

So far this year season, without a doubt Payton Manning >>> Tom Brady.

Yards Per Game
Manning 329
Brady 286

Completion %
Manning 73.5%
Brady 65.3%

Touchdowns
Manning 12
Brady 12

Interceptions
Manning 4
Brady 2

Passer Rating
Manning 114.1
Brady 97.1

So Manning ahead on all statistical category's apart from Int's. Now come the end of the year this may all change but ATM Payton Manning is the MVP of the league.

Regards
Ian

tallaghtoutlaws

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

One swallow does not a summer make.

Sure he had a great game, however so did Drew Breese.

So far this year season, without a doubt Payton Manning >>> Tom Brady.

Yards Per Game
Manning 329
Brady 286

Completion %
Manning 73.5%
Brady 65.3%

Touchdowns
Manning 12
Brady 12

Interceptions
Manning 4
Brady 2

Passer Rating
Manning 114.1
Brady 97.1

So Manning ahead on all statistical category's apart from Int's. Now come the end of the year this may all change but ATM Payton Manning is the MVP of the league.

Regards
Ian

Why are you telling us this? karlusss quoted this

Originally Posted by Pherekydes:What has Tom "someone brushed off my leg" Brady done so far this year to deserve #3?

and responded with this:

Update:

"Brady finished 29 of 34 with 380 yards and a career-high six touchdowns before he was replaced by rookie QB Brian Hoyer on New England's second drive in the third quarter."

Maybe some day Belichick'll leave him in and we'll see what a 100-0 game looks like.

Correct me if im wrong wasnt he answering the point Pherekydes made about "what has brady done to deserve #3" in someones power rankings? Not once did he mention Brady being MVP or compare him to Manning. I could be wrong but I think you are jumping the gun a tad.

Of course Manning has better numbers. Its taken Brady 5 games to get back into the flow of things. Everybody knows it and can see it. Well except Eagle Eye maybe

Karlusss

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

So Manning ahead on all statistical category's apart from Int's. Now come the end of the year this may all change but ATM Payton Manning is the MVP of the league.

Yeah maybe, but as tallaghtoutlaws noted, I was just quoting it in response that what people said about Brady not showing top 10 form when this thread first went up. As in, he is now.

Way too early to be calling anyone the MVP of anything yet, also.

Dodge

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Its taken Brady 5 games to get back into the flow of things.

Its taken the titans and their awful pass defence. Nearly everyone ot face them this year had season high figures

tallaghtoutlaws

Dodge wrote: »

Its taken the titans and their awful pass defence. Nearly everyone ot face them this year had season high figures

But it bring confidence back to an offense that has failed to produce in 5 games. I never said the Titans werent awful but as an Offense that was struggling to win a game 45-0 at HT is huge confidence booster and good solid practice for weeks to come. Brady got plenty of chances to connect with WR he hasnt hit properly all season long. Added bonus to tonight walk away and take the value of the timing with your WR back with you.

Getting a big win now and hopefully a solid win next week will settle the Pats and Brady coming off their bye week in Week 9 to take on the Fins

davyjose

Well Brady's back now, no doubt. So we can get a proper look from now at exactly how good the Pats are this season. I think the titans flattered them somewhat today*, but they are defo a lot better than the Bills/Jets/Broncos games too.

* I think the weather helped too. It's worth remembering, that a team who play a couple of games in the snow every year have much better practice in it than a team from, well, the south.

DonkeyPokerTour

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Why are you telling us this? karlusss quoted this



and responded with this:



Correct me if im wrong wasnt he answering the point Pherekydes made about "what has brady done to deserve #3" in someones power rankings? Not once did he mention Brady being MVP or compare him to Manning. I could be wrong but I think you are jumping the gun a tad.

Of course Manning has better numbers. Its taken Brady 5 games to get back into the flow of things. Everybody knows it and can see it. Well except Eagle Eye maybe

Maybe I over reacted slightly, but my main point was "One swallow does not make a summer" I then kinda went off topic (onto the usual hot topic of Manning Vs Brady). Appologies

Chucky the tree

Karlusss wrote: »

Update:

"Brady finished 29 of 34 with 380 yards and a career-high six touchdowns before he was replaced by rookie QB Brian Hoyer on New England's second drive in the third quarter."

Maybe some day Belichick'll leave him in and we'll see what a 100-0 game looks like.

I really don't see the point of this post, pretty pathetic actually tbh. At the time Pherekydes was spot on. Tom brady did absolutely nothing to be #3. From my understanding of power rankings it is based on a current season and up until last against game Brady has been average at best. Ranking him #3 was comical.

Karlusss

I KNOW what happened this weekend doesn't relate to what people said before. I wasn't trying to use the stats to prove a point I made weeks ago, though I do still think that at the time, Tom Brady was that high in terms of being a player who gives his team the best chance to win.

There's no need to say it was pathetic, I was just posting new information relevant to the thread, not trying to make anyone else look bad or myself look better.

Chucky the tree

Karlusss wrote: »

I KNOW what happened this weekend doesn't relate to what people said before. I wasn't trying to use the stats to prove a point I made weeks ago, though I do still think that at the time, Tom Brady was that high in terms of being a player who gives his team the best chance to win.

There's no need to say it was pathetic, I was just posting new information relevant to the thread, not trying to make anyone else look bad or myself look better.

Fair enough, pathetic comment was a bit OTT but looking at your post it basically looked like a "ha, in your face" style gloat.