Who was the worst taoiseach ever?

Dannyboy83

Who was the worst taoiseach ever in terms of the damage they have done to Ireland and to Irish politics?
What government was the worst government to befall Ireland ever?

I'm guessing it was probably Haughey and then Bertie for the 1st. The Irish Lenin and Stalin.
Don't have an answer for the 2nd.

tunney

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Who was the worst taoiseach ever?
What government was the worst government to befall Ireland ever?

I'm guessing it was probably Haughey and then Bertie.
Don't have an answer for the 2nd.

Agree Haughey and Bertie.

Dannyboy83

tunney wrote: »

Agree Haughey and Bertie.

Sorry edited the q slightly, but thanks.

mike65

Dev! He oversaw the foolish and impovrishing "economic war" with Britain in the 30s. Whatever chances the Free State (as was) had to boost the economy was ruined.

turgon

Also Dev is the architect of the political system which gives the man with a majority in the Dail a stranglehold over the whole government. Much of what is gone wrong in this country can be brought back to the fact that there is no balance of power.

I'm guessing most here don't exactly remember WT Cosgrave?

Hard to say. Who was better, Henry VIII or Queen Elizabeth II? Jesse Owens or Carl Lewis? Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods? Not sure its adds much to the debate. Was the Economic War worse than the Boundary Commission screw up? Was the Peace Process better than the Anglo Irish Treaty?

Soldie

Dev, without question.

Soldie

Soldie wrote: »

Dev, without question.

You mean Dev, in your opinion.

Which of his administrations do you remember yourself?

DublinWriter

mike65 wrote: »

Dev! He oversaw the foolish and impovrishing "economic war" with Britain in the 30s. Whatever chances the Free State (as was) had to boost the economy was ruined.

Very true. He undid the early work of Cumann na nGaedhael and was opposed to their modernisation programme, including the Shannon Hydroelectric scheme.

It's very easy to bash Haughey, but remember that he sanctioned the go-ahead for the IFSC against the advice of his senior Civil Servants and it was this scheme that was the pre-cursor for the foreign investment in Ireland from the late-1980's on.

He also brought in free-travel for OAPs.

leninbenjamin

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean Dev, in your opinion.

Which of his administrations do you remember yourself?

Dev brought the country far closer to bankruptcy than any Taoiseach since.

He kept us out of WWII, dragged many Republicans from a civil war and put them on a path to democracy, he stood as a noteable exception in a Europe where many countries were ruled by dictators etc. I mean, I am sure other countries would be more upset about the legacies of Franco and Mussolini than we are of Dev.

SafeSurfer

Its easy to ascribe terms like best or worst to Dev, Haughey or Bertie, but then again they have been in power longer than anyone else so they will have more screw ups than Taoisigh that did nt see out a full term.

Leadership was pretty awful throughout the 1950's by both Dev and Costello. The economy did'nt start to emerge from stagnation until the era of Lemass in the early 1960's.

Biggins

Whatever we say about Haughey and his crooked ways, in the office he was very politically astute.
He helped to keep Ireland afloat at times.

Bertie - To his credit he had his moments of victory - pity though he tarnished himself by monetary means also like Haughey.

Worse? I agree with the above mentioned "Dev"- for the above mentioned reasons and one more...
I firmly believe he sold out Mr Collins to the Brits and was if only slightly, partly to blame for his eventual death.

redfacedbear

Yep, as much as I despise Haughey for the cancer of corruption that he and his ilk introduced to politics in Ireland - it has to be remembered that the IFSC and the 'Mac the knife' cuts that led to the Celtic Tiger were brought in on his watch (not to mention free travel and artist exemptions).

Dev on the other hand seems to have been consistently wrong - The Civil War, Economic War, Neutrality, Isolationism in the 50s, his god-fearing Constitution.

Perhaps Bertie's 'Power without Governance' term has done us more harm over a shorter period than Dev.

Jack Lynch deserves a mention for the the disastrous budgetary policy of his '77 government, and maybe Garrett for failing to deal with its consequences in the '82-'87 period.

But on balance I'd say Dev

murphaph

DeValera in first place, followed by Ahern if you ask me. At least the crook Haughey was behind the IFSC which did indeed do some good.

I'd say on the other hand that Lynch was one of, if not the best Taoiseach Ireland has ever had.

Conor: Slagging off WT Cosgrave is not very wise. He was a pragmatist and a visionary in many ways. The man initiated the ESB and instigated the Shannon Scheme (Dev opposed such technological advances and wanted us all dancing at the crossroads) and saw trade and industry as Ireland's future, instead of the over-reliance on agriculture which was prevalent at the time. Dev rewound the clock on a lot of it.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

I firmly believe he sold out Mr Collins to the Brits and was if only slightly, partly to blame for his eventual death.

And many would say that, despite the recent efforts at revisionism by Neil Jordan and co., Collins sold out this country to the Brits etc. etc. and was, if only slightly, partly to blame for the Civil War, the Partition, the Troubles etc. etc. etc. But it's an argument for another thread surely...

Euro_Kraut

Jack Lynch for his disastrous economic policy which consigned a generation of Irish to emigration. His abandoning of the Nationalists in the North as the troubles broke confined that community to years of hardship.

OS119

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Jack Lynch for his disastrous economic policy which consigned a generation of Irish to emigration. His abandoning of the Nationalists in the North as the troubles broke confined that community to years of hardship.

its perhaps for a different thread, but what could he actually have done for them?

'abandoning' suggests he was in a position to do something constructive, but chose not to wield that tool. from what i know of Irelands' geo-political, economic, and military position of the time he was in no position to do anything for them whatsoever, so abandoning doesn't come into it.

Euro_Kraut

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Jack Lynch for his disastrous economic policy which consigned a generation of Irish to emigration.

Did it not exist until the 70s or something? Was it some new development in Irish history under Lynch?

fcussen

If he had invaded Northern Ireland and started a war with Britain that would have made him the best taoiseach ever.

mike65

It could have made him the last Taoiseach ever.

sdanseo

Dev without a shadow.

The most almighty and short sighted idiot that we ever had. Dev was happy to trundle along and mix rash decisions into his slow pace whilst Collins was a man of action who would have led this nation not only into better times but who knows, maybe even unification which can now never happen even though it was Dev's ultimate aim.

Knowing as little about politics as I do, whichever government was responsible for the spawning of the unbearable characters we have now, should be brought out and shot, tbh.

fcussen wrote: »

If he had invaded Northern Ireland and started a war with Britain that would have made him the best taoiseach ever.

....he would have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds, then retreated. Jack lynch had all the social skills of a beansprout but was a brilliant man.

Dr Sinnott

Haughey was only taoiseach for a total of about six years I'd say in his three different spells in the job? Never managed a full term.

Was his support of the IFSC due to him believing it to be a great thing for the country or because his paw was being greased?

I think Ahern was a shocking taoiseach and always thought so at the time. Don't know if he was the worst ever but def the worst in my lifetime and hopefull we won't see his likes again.

Given Lemass has not been mentioned I assume he'd be most people's choice as best taoiseach?

fcussen

sdonn wrote: »

....he would have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds, then retreated. Jack lynch had all the social skills of a beansprout but was a brilliant man.

It was a joke

sdonn

sdonn wrote: »

Collins was a man of action who would have led this nation not only into better times but who knows, maybe even unification

:eek:

You know that scene in Full Metal Jacket where they say Animal is a great guy buy he just needs someone throwing hand grenades at him for the rest of his life?

I'm sure Collins was useful as a soldier. The way he was completely outmanoeuvred in the Treaty debates (albeit by a vey skilled British team) would suggest that he was not cut out for politics.

bSlick

Lets not forget that Dev signed the book of condolences for HITLER after WWII. The only western leader to do so. That is probably the biggest disgrace in Irish history.

Bruton and Reynolds could actually like this thread!

mike65

Deleted User wrote: »

Bruton and Reynolds could actually like this thread!

Taoisigh could be like budgets - the least acclaimed at the time turn out to be the least worst.

b12mearse

Dev. because of the economic war

b12mearse

b12mearse wrote: »

Dev. because of the economic war

It was still better than the actual War that it ultimately kept us out of...

BennyLava

Any of the FF ones,