Who was the worst taoiseach ever?

meathstevie

irish_bob wrote: »

bertie would enter the grand national without a horse if it got him enough attention , such is the size of the guys ego

Let me correct that. Bertie would go to the grand national without a horse if it got him enough attention and before the race started he would have sweettalked the favourite owner to give him a go on his horse. Such is the size of the guy's capability for smoothtalking, fudging, wheeling and dealing.

A year later someone would discover a huge horse rental invoice in the post and Bertie has long disappeared into the sunset after having hedged his bets with every bookie at Aintree.

redfacedbear

K-9 wrote: »

McCreevy was gone in 02.

The real damage was done from 02 on.

I disagree, i think that the seeds of what we are now reaping were sown in that first Ahern government;

• Benchmarking
• Decentralisation
• Eircom privitisation
• Start of the eroision of the tax base
• Wimping out on linking the Luas lines
• Failure to tackle Planning
• Giving too much power to the 'Social Partners'
• 'If I have it I'll spend it'

Kodo_86

I would have thought that Lemass would have gotten more votes?

Like others, I find myself hating Dev's social and economic policies but hugely appreciative of his work as minister of external affairs (probably our second best after Aiken).

In defence of Irish neutrality, it's always worth remembering how poorly defended Belfast was by Churchill. The city was so comprehensively bombed in one night (1000 dead and 100,000 left homeless) that the Luftwaffe never deemed it necessary to return in force. If London left the Belfast that defenceless, I find it hard to believe that Dublin or Cork would have fared any better.

bSlick wrote: »

Lets not forget that Dev signed the book of condolences for HITLER after WWII. The only western leader to do so. That is probably the biggest disgrace in Irish history.

Then you will be relieved to know that it never happened! See page 75 and 90 of http://www.ria.ie/cgi-bin/ria/papers/100771.pdf

Dannyboy83

Interesting documentary here
http://www.rte.ie/radio/judgingdev/tv.html

K-9

redfacedbear wrote: »

I disagree, i think that the seeds of what we are now reaping were sown in that first Ahern government;

• Benchmarking
• Decentralisation
• Eircom privitisation
• Start of the eroision of the tax base
• Wimping out on linking the Luas lines
• Failure to tackle Planning
• Giving too much power to the 'Social Partners'
• 'If I have it I'll spend it'

Eircom was decided by FG and Labour, so some of that responsibility lies with them too.

McCreevey set up the Pension fund, strongly criticised by FG and Labour.

The main damage on the tax base was done after McCreevey, no tax on minimum wage, things like that.

I'd agree with the others but they all could have been tackled in the next Govt.

Indeed, the first Budget after the 02 election was a tough Budget, so they could have tightened up if they had wanted to.

Deise Tom

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Who was the worst taoiseach ever in terms of the damage they have done to Ireland and to Irish politics?
What government was the worst government to befall Ireland ever?

I dont know the answer to the First part of your question, but i know who will be if the people of Ireland make the biggest mistake in the history of the country at the next General Election, and it would NOT be to return a Fianna Fail Government with Brian Cowan as leader. Maybe to put Fine Gael and Labour in might not be bad, but not with the two gentlement that they currently have over them. The County would be in Dire Straits in double quick time, worse than it is.

The Answer to the second part was the Fine Gael/Labour government in the 1980's when Barry Desmond was Minister for Health and Gemma Hussey was minister for Education. The Heath and education systems went back years when they sat behind their desks, but neither party will admit that and blame Fianna Fail, as will the Journalist, who are doing a good job fooling the people of Ireland.

Deise Tom

DublinWriter wrote: »

Very true. He undid the early work of Cumann na nGaedhael and was opposed to their modernisation programme, including the Shannon Hydroelectric scheme.

It's very easy to bash Haughey, but remember that he sanctioned the go-ahead for the IFSC against the advice of his senior Civil Servants and it was this scheme that was the pre-cursor for the foreign investment in Ireland from the late-1980's on.

He also brought in free-travel for OAPs.

This country would be a lot poorer place but for Charlie and Bertie but the majority of the people cant see this. More fool them i say. OK they took a few quid or at least alegadly took it, but if a fellow walked up to you and handed you an Envelope would you take it.

Deise Tom

fcussen wrote: »

If he had invaded Northern Ireland and started a war with Britain that would have made him the best taoiseach ever.

Did we have enough soldiers etc at the time to do this.

Deise Tom

murphaph wrote: »

Conor. You keep saying Dev kept us out of WWII like it was some great honour.

WWII was at least a war against a truly evil empire (much more than could be said for the Great War which was really a pissing contest and nothing more). Come here where I live and visit the various memorials to the many and varied victims of that empire and you'll see that all politics aside-Germany HAD to be beaten and it was a noble cause, although not always fought in a noble way.

Dev was just being his usual sly self. He didn't want to declare war on Germany but he did allow Ireland to help the allies. That was snaky behaviour. Ireland could have assisted the war effort so much more (remember many tens of thousands of irish fought under other flags) and could have brought the war to a speedier end.

Even if you disagree that ireland should have been involved officially, please don't harp on about it like he was Alexander the Great. It's like saying I'm a great lad because I don't drink and drive or something.

What would have been so great about going to War. I think Dev did the right thing.

JonathanAnon

Deise Tom wrote: »

What would have been so great about going to War. I think Dev did the right thing.

Churchill would have put the Irish divisions straight to the front just like he did in WWI http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2001/11/11/story489421828.asp War would have had the same result with less British losses.

Regarding the Taoiseach. Bertie took over with the most fertile economic environment, and

1. through pandering to foreign multinationals (who were seen as some great prize when we got them on board even though it was obvious they were here for the short term) and the unions (i.e. minimum wages etc etc), while ignoring the small indigenous businesses, he has ruined the employment situation.
2. by pandering to the public sector unions and increasing social welfare (without having either linked to the state of the economy or GDP), has given us a massive overhead for the future which no government is likely to have the balls to cut
3. introduced a (well paid) bank regulator which did not regulate AT ALL, considering that NONE of the banks actually survived with government investment. It was his job to make that a) the banks' capital / loan ratio was ok, and b) that they were selling sustainable packages to the consumer. This is the fault of government as they were meant to set up an independent body (i.e. bring in outsiders to oversee the banks). What they ended up doing was having friends overseeing friends, which never works as we see from Fás.
4. Did nothing to regulate the housing sector, which in effect turned in to a pyramid scheme. A house is a social necessity, and they did nothing to help the average worker to buy an average house. They let the developers profiteer and did nothing to prevent this or to prevent the overpopulation of available housing. This was always gonna go wrong when the Irish banks started borrowing from European banks to put in to the property sector here.

Through his indecision and wishing not to offend anybody, he make no hard decisions and managed to mess everything up. Of course and alternative viewpoint would be that it is all the fault of Lehman's Bank..

imme

murphaph wrote: »

Conor: Slagging off WT Cosgrave is not very wise. He was a pragmatist and a visionary in many ways. The man initiated the ESB and instigated the Shannon Scheme (Dev opposed such technological advances and wanted us all dancing at the crossroads) and saw trade and industry as Ireland's future, instead of the over-reliance on agriculture which was prevalent at the time. Dev rewound the clock on a lot of it.

true enough, Ardnacrusha/Shannon Hydroelectric Scheme was visionary. At the time it was built it was the largest hydroelectric plant in the world. The Free State government decided that we needed power generation to supply industry and electrification. Paddy McGilligan was an effective minister who saw it through.
Cosgrave had a difficult task and must be applauded for his efforts.
As to the worst Taoiseach, I'm not sure. Bertie will prove to have been a conjurer with an empty 'bag of tricks'. So, maybe Bertie.

Deise Tom

Its easy for people to say that X, Y or Z was our worst ever Taoiseach. Who do people think was the best one.

imme

Deise Tom wrote: »

Its easy for people to say that X, Y or Z was our worst ever Taoiseach. Who do people think was the best one.

you'll have to start a thread so:)

Edit: I have just done it.:P

Kev_ps3

Bertie by a mile. Destroyed this country to no end.

old boy

i.m.o. aherne did not ride this country, he raped it.

Hillel

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Bertie by a mile. Destroyed this country to no end.

That's very harsh. I've just been reading his autobiography. He's just a poor, god-fearing, country boy. Really! He grew up on the farm, drove the cattle through Drumcondra, every summer......
Great credit to the lad for turning out so well.
An example to us all.

recycler1

Hillel wrote: »

That's very harsh. I've just been reading his autobiography. He's just a poor, god-fearing, country boy. Really! He grew up on the farm, drove the cattle through Drumcondra, every summer......
Great credit to the lad for turning out so well.
An example to us all.

I agree. Let's start a "Bertie for President" campaign. :eek:

Deise Tom

recycler1 wrote: »

I agree. Let's start a "Bertie for President" campaign. :eek:

I believe that a Statue or Bertie and Charlie should be put up in every town and village of Ireland. The two of them may have a few black marks after their name, but both done an awful lot of good for the small man while they were in office, and without them, we might not be half as well off as we are right now.

bladespin

Dev, sent the country into a backward spiral that only stopped in the early ninties, can trace a lot of modern problems back to his original vision, shocking to think that it took us 50 years to catch back up with our nearest neighbours socially and economically.

fcussen

Deise Tom wrote: »

I believe that a Statue or Bertie and Charlie should be put up in every town and village of Ireland. The two of them may have a few black marks after their name, but both done an awful lot of good for the small man while they were in office, and without them, we might not be half as well off as we are right now.

If it wasn't for Bertie Ahern we'd be twice as "well off" as we are now

Deise Tom

fcussen wrote: »

If it wasn't for Bertie Ahern we'd be twice as "well off" as we are now

How do you make that out.

The way were are right now is down to alot of pure human greed, People wanting two and three cars in the yard, wanting a second house, or to have the biggest house in the area, wanting two or three holidays in the area.

Why so many people wanted to keep up with the Jones' i dont know. As it worked out they may not have been as wealthy or posh as most people might have thought.

meditraitor

A 3 way tie between Haughey/Bertie and dev..... All scheming bastards.

Diogenes

Deise Tom wrote: »

How do you make that out.

The way were are right now is down to alot of pure human greed,

Most of us describe Bertie's political career being down to pure personal human greed. This is a man who claimed that a politician taking personal donations of unspecified amounts from property developers, is perfectly acceptable behaviour.