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Our Lady to appear in Knock on Sunday

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    #422
    PFJSplitter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,575 ✭✭✭✭PFJSplitter


    Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walked past mine!


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    #423
    wudangclan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭wudangclan


    i'm certain our lady didn't appear at knock today...
    ...cause she was on here the other day looking for excuses to go watch the football.


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    #424
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Dinner wrote: »
    Yesterday it was 'millions' now it was 'at least a million'. The crowd is dwindling!Oh sorry, A small slip, stop trying to be "hillarious":rolleyes: Regardless, any claim of millions of people turning up to Zeitoun is completely unsubstantiated.Newspaper Clippings of the time... Read them The only proof of an apparition is a drawing 1 Drawing recalling what was seen and REAL photos. That's all there is, despite the fact that the apparition 'appeared' to 'millions' over the course of about 3 years. That is not proof, there is no proof aside from wishful thinking and blind faith in your head.If you think it is just splodge of random light, why was it over a church and better yet why the hell is there random splodges of light just appearing.


    Did you read your previous thread on Zeitoun yet? Because each of the points that you will undoubtedly bring up here have been dealt with in that thread. Stop using it as proof when it very clearly isn't.I'll use it as proof because it is proof, my points were never "dealt with" as if you somehow killed each one in its tracks, you responded to them and I responded back.



    No, we can safely assume that nothing out of the ordinary happened. Why? Because there is no proof other than people wanting something to appear and then wishful thinking and a heap of other psychological reactions kicking in.
    Why would random people with no interest in the church, an athiest for example "want" to see anything, would they not be the first there on site disproving it? No one who was ACTUALLY there and not watching a video over the net said they did not see anything. Quite the contrary.

     Also, don't stare at the sun tomorrow. It's bad for your eyes.
    .


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    #425
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    If the sun is bobbling about would it not occur to someone to video the shadows moving on the ground. Now that would be pretty incontrovertible evidence of some celestial rumblings. Pointing a camera at the sun is a bit dopey.


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    #426
    FruitLover
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    Diabhal Beag wrote: »
    Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean you have to completely ridicule them.

    I think it's pretty reasonable to ridicule people who believe and do things that are ridiculous.


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    #427
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    FruitLover wrote: »
    I think it's pretty reasonable to ridicule people who believe and do things that are ridiculous.
    Yeah like stubbornly refusing to even think about something yet still call it impossible. I love ridiculing people who do that.


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    #428
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,350 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    partyatmygaff wrote: »

    Anyways what bad has christianity itself done to anyone? ( I am awaiting an onslaught of posts now :rolleyes:)

    by itself christianity has done nothing, but like a gun (which is harmless by itself) in the wrong hands christianity can be used to carry out unspeakable acts, Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, witch burnings to name but a few


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    #429
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    by itself christianity has done nothing, but like a gun (which is harmless by itself) in the wrong hands christianity can be used to carry out unspeakable acts, Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, witch burnings to name but a few
    Spot on!

    The people who ran it and abused their power from it from priest to pope of the middle ages and indeed upto recent times are the the ones who did a whole lot of bad. Religion and christianity as whole has done nothing wrong to anyone, too bad the majority don't understand that. Christianity as a general punishes things like Child abuse, Punishing others for refusing to join your religion, killing others for your religion, killing others for not adhering to your religion but then again I can name other religions which do allow for the above.:rolleyes:


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    #430
    wudangclan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭wudangclan


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Spot on!

    Punishing others for refusing to join your religion, killing others for your religion, killing others for not adhering to your religion but then again I can name other religions which do allow for the above.:rolleyes:

    look back on your christian history and you'll find all of the above (and you won't have to go that far either with george w. invoking god for support to start a war in iraq).


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    #431
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Mergerererererered.


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    #432
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    What are you people talking about. Spanish inquisitions, crusades, middles ages. We're not studying Junior Cert history here.

    This was some strange event and I don't like it but don't start rambling about that sort of thing. Nexy you'll be preaching to me about Martin Luther.


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    #433
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Catholic church thinks it's a ****ing joke too. Anyone remember what its stance was on Ballinspittle?


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    #434
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    or the Tree Stump in Limerick?


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    #435
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    wudangclan wrote: »
    look back on your christian history and you'll find all of the above (and you won't have to go that far either with george w. invoking god for support to start a war in iraq).
    Yeah people abusing a position of power, it happened in the middle ages and it happens again, I just said that in the post you quoted.
    In any case your all miles off-topic, the apparitions in knock....


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    #436
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    You'll do well in the JC exam. Keep up the studying.


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    #437
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Johnny Giles wrote: »
    You'll do well in the JC exam. Keep up the studying.
    Who are you talking to?:confused: JC forum is off to the left....


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    #438
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Oh sorry, A small slip, stop trying to be "hillarious"

    Apologies, I forgot apparitions were serious business.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    1 Drawing recalling what was seen and REAL photos.

    That drawing is the only one that shows any sort of outline or shape. Every photo taken (which all appear to be taken by the one guy) shows a non distinct shape. I don't know why there is a shape in the photograph. I don't for one minute believe that there was an actual apparition, there are simply too many questions that remain unanswered.

    If it happened over a number of years how come there isn't more proof?
    How come all the pictures were taken by one person? Couldn't he have brought a friend? I mean this is definitive proof that the Coptic Church is the right one and he doesn't bring a few more reporter buddies?
    How come the worlds media weren't swarming around because they have such definitive proof that Coptic Christianity is the right religion and the billions of people who follow a different one are wasting their lives?
    How come the drawing shows a clear outline of what was present in the sky, yet the photos show nothing like that?
    How come these splodges were assumed to be Mary and not a Hindu God warning people away from Christianity?
    How come the Head of the Coptic Church didn't even seem to go to the site?

    Isn't possible that in fact there was no apparition, any flashes of light seen were either a hoax or Earthquake Light or something like that. That would appear to answer all of the above questions.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    If you think it is just splodge of random light, why was it over a church and better yet why the hell is there random splodges of light just appearing.
    I don't think there was anything there at all. The splodge on the picture could have been anything, or more probable, nothing. (cue quote from an Islamic guy claiming the pictures weren't doctored)

    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I'll use it as proof because it is proof, my points were never "dealt with" as if you somehow killed each one in its tracks, you responded to them and I responded back.
    I was referring to your thread on Zeitoun in the Christianity forum where many posters picked flaws in your logic, not just me. And it is impossible to kill any of your points dead since each one relies on word of mouth and dodgy pictures and unquestioning faith.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Why would random people with no interest in the church, an athiest for example "want" to see anything, would they not be the first there on site disproving it? No one who was ACTUALLY there and not watching a video over the net said they did not see anything. Quite the contrary.

    Have you seen the video of the guy who was at Knock the last time stating that there is nothing happening while an aul lad standing near claims the sun is coming towards him or something like that? Because that would seem to refute your point about 'No one who was ACTUALLY there and not watching a video over the net said they did not see anything.', because quite clearly, there was.
    There are even more people in the A&A forum who were there today and said nothing happened. Joe Coleman, bless his cottons, seems intent that he saw something. Although it suits his wallet and 'credibility' more to pretend he did see something.


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    #439
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Not really....
    Zeitoun for example was in the 70s, witnessed by atleast a million.

    @stiff kitten
    Try staring at the sun tomorrow for 5 seconds and see if anything happens, if nothing happens tomorrow then while I don't know what exactly happened at knock we can safely say something did happen out of the ordinary.

    No disrespect, you can believe what you wish. But at least try to substantiate your claims when you make them.

    I've heard of this Zeitoun thing and it is summed up best by educated persons such as:

    "Sociologists Robert Bartholomew and Erich Goode offer the Zeitoun apparitions as a prominent case of mass delusion:

    “It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary.”
    The reports of often fanatical religious witnesses who see their favourite saints in vague and ambiguous light patterns are examples of pareidolia, a psychological phenomenon!"


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    #440
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Dinner wrote: »
    Apologies, I forgot apparitions were serious business.



    That drawing is the only one that shows any sort of outline or shape. Every photo taken (which all appear to be taken by the one guy) shows a non distinct shape. I don't know why there is a shape in the photograph. I don't for one minute believe that there was an actual apparition, there are simply too many questions that remain unanswered.
    If you remember using film cameras which you probably do, very bright light never comes out correct which would explain the lack of detail especially since this was in the late 60s in a (At the time) poor egypt, those photos were recently polarised and there does appear to be some detail in the light, google it and see.

    If it happened over a number of years how come there isn't more proof?
    Besides a photo and testimonies of those who were there, what other proof do you need besides going back in time to see it for yourself?
    How come all the pictures were taken by one person? Couldn't he have brought a friend? I mean this is definitive proof that the Coptic Church is the right one and he doesn't bring a few more reporter buddies?
    I would say the government was not exactly pleased with all of this and put attempts to suppress it or people taking photos etc and this one reporter happened to have tooken photos somehow.
    How come the worlds media weren't swarming around because they have such definitive proof that Coptic Christianity is the right religion and the billions of people who follow a different one are wasting their lives?
    Government Suppression(I know your gonna scream conspiracy theorist here but its true)
    How come the drawing shows a clear outline of what was present in the sky, yet the photos show nothing like that?
    The physical properties of film cameras, they absorb too much light and all detail is lost, a drawing from memory rarely suffers a loss of detail as the human eye does not work like a camera.
    How come these splodges were assumed to be Mary and not a Hindu God warning people away from Christianity?
    Appearing over the dome of the church? Why especially christianity, why wouldn't said Hindu god be above Buddhist temples and Synagogues and Mosques?
    How come the Head of the Coptic Church didn't even seem to go to the site?
    Pope Cyril did in fact visit the site.

    Isn't possible that in fact there was no apparition, any flashes of light seen were either a hoax or Earthquake Light or something like that. That would appear to answer all of the above questions.
    The police spent weeks trying to prove its some type of hoax and it would of been in there interest to find it to be a hoax but they found no physical explanation for the light.

    I don't think there was anything there at all. The splodge on the picture could have been anything, or more probable, nothing. (cue quote from an Islamic guy claiming the pictures weren't doctored)
    How does light just appear in photographs? How can such a large number of people collectively lie and claim to have witnessed the same things considering not all were of the same faith or indeed any faith.



    I was referring to your thread on Zeitoun in the Christianity forum where many posters picked flaws in your logic, not just me. And it is impossible to kill any of your points dead since each one relies on word of mouth and dodgy pictures and unquestioning faith.
    Real photos aren't dodgy pictures, Its not unquestioning faith either.


    Have you seen the video of the guy who was at Knock the last time stating that there is nothing happening while an aul lad standing near claims the sun is coming towards him or something like that? Because that would seem to refute your point about 'No one who was ACTUALLY there and not watching a video over the net said they did not see anything.', because quite clearly, there was.
    There are even more people in the A&A forum who were there today and said nothing happened. Joe Coleman, bless his cottons, seems intent that he saw something. Although it suits his wallet and 'credibility' more to pretend he did see something.
    Something may or may not of happened at knock, I don't know and until we see some type of proof or credible testimonies then I can't say for certain anything about it, the fact it was predicted by some dodgy psychic doesn't help at all.
    .


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    #441
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    No disrespect, you can believe what you wish. But at least try to substantiate your claims when you make them.

    I've heard of this Zeitoun thing and it is summed up best by educated persons such as:

    "Sociologists Robert Bartholomew and Erich Goode offer the Zeitoun apparitions as a prominent case of mass delusion:

    “It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary.”
    The reports of often fanatical religious witnesses who see their favourite saints in vague and ambiguous light patterns are examples of pareidolia, a psychological phenomenon!"
    If these two obviously well educated people and I don't mean that sarcastically had been there and witnessed nothing whatsoever then they can call it mass delusion/mass mental retardation/mass insanity or whatever they wish to call it.
    Light doesn't just appear in the sky over church domes.


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    #442
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Light doesn't just appear in the sky over church domes.

    it's JEEBUSS!!

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lVvM5tfzc3w/SF3EspUSJdI/AAAAAAAADNk/o6Qx1Y_1_vo/s400/sunset+church+7.jpg


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    #443
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Light doesn't just appear in the sky over church domes.


    Jaysus Chroist. :pac:


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    #444
    scarymoon1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭scarymoon1


    but who can say 100% there is no god? NO ONE.


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    #445
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    If these two obviously well educated people and I don't mean that sarcastically had been there and witnessed nothing whatsoever then they can call it mass delusion/mass mental retardation/mass insanity or whatever they wish to call it.
    Light doesn't just appear in the sky over church domes.

    Ah, the point is, even if there is a light, why do you assume it is the virgin mary. Why not lucifer, or Elvis?


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    #446
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    Ah, the point is, even if there is a light, why do you assume it is the virgin mary. Why not lucifer, or Elvis?
    Church dedicated to the virgin mary?
    Polarisations as poor quality as they may be do show a resemblance.


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    #447
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Church dedicated to the virgin mary?
    Polarisations as poor quality as they may be do show a resemblance.

    To what? A little Jewish woman, or the tall slim blonde gentile of popular culture.


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    #448
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    To what? A little Jewish woman, or the tall slim blonde gentile of popular culture.
    To what the people know her to look like, surely if she is the mother of god would she not be able to appear in the form the people can recognise her by.


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    #449
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    If you remember using film cameras which you probably do, very bright light never comes out correct which would explain the lack of detail especially since this was in the late 60s in a (At the time) poor egypt

    Over 3 years they never managed to find a better camera. Interesting.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    and there does appear to be some detail in the light, google it and see.

    I have looked, and I don't see any detail in the splodge. Perhaps my heart just isn't open to it...
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Besides a photo and testimonies of those who were there, what other proof do you need besides going back in time to see it for yourself?

    Going back in time would be nice. I'm not big into the testimonies. For stuff like this there are too many factors at play. Herd mentality, wishful thinking exaggeration etc. And over the course of 3 years I would have thought that something more than a few photos would have appeared. Surely the Pope could have organised a better camera for them when he found out.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I would say the government was not exactly pleased with all of this and put attempts to suppress it or people taking photos etc and this one reporter happened to have tooken photos somehow.

    He managed to take the photos and have them printed. A group of nuns managed to notify the Vatican. The government did an awful job at trying to suppress it. Not a very good excuse.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Government Suppression(I know your gonna scream conspiracy theorist here but its true)

    As above, not a good excuse. If the government couldn't stop it being printed in a paper then they weren't very good at suppressing people.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The physical properties of film cameras, they absorb too much light and all detail is lost, a drawing from memory rarely suffers a loss of detail as the human eye does not work like a camera.

    A drawing memory also suffers from a severe problem that photos don't; exaggeration, intentional or not.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Appearing over the dome of the church? Why especially christianity, why wouldn't said Hindu god be above Buddhist temples and Synagogues and Mosques?

    Why not Christianity? It's as good a place as any to start warning people that they are worshipping the wrong religion.

    Why did she appear at a Coptic church? Why not the Vatican or a Protestant or Baptist? Are you now a Coptic or does she not mind what 'flavour' of Christian you are, in which case shouldn't it be a message to stop breaking up into sub-factions?

    Has Mary gotten bored of the Coptics now and has gone back to the Catholics? Surely it's the Baptists turn for an apparition by now.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Pope Cyril did in fact visit the site.

    I haven't found a decent source that said he did. All I could find was about him setting up a committee to verify the appearance.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The police spent weeks trying to prove its some type of hoax and it would of been in there interest to find it to be a hoax but they found no physical explanation for the light.

    If it was a hoax it would have been bad for the location with loss of tourism etc. Imagine if Knock was proven to be a hoax! The B&B owners would be up in arms!

    Earthquake light was only really given a name around that time so it wouldn't have been very well documented at the time.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    How does light just appear in photographs? How can such a large number of people collectively lie and claim to have witnessed the same things considering not all were of the same faith or indeed any faith.

    Errors during development, manipulation. I have no idea really, I'm not a photographic expert. But I find something like that a lot more probable than a supernatural being miraculously appearing over a church in the back arse of Egypt and evading the lens of all but one photographer.

    I don't think that everybody who says they saw it are lying. I'm not even sure Joe Coleman is lying. I'm sure they believe that they saw it. But that doesn't make it true. People in crowds work in funny ways.


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    #450
    terenc
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭terenc


    WHAT A LOAD OF MANURE (****E)


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    #451
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    I agree.


This discussion has been closed.
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