Honest about Santa

thorbarry

Lillylilly wrote: »

Also, getting presents in brilliant!!! The trauma of learning that there is no Santa is often softened by the fact that the kids know they're still gonna get presents!! I just think we can all give our kids presents and avoid unnecessary trauma!!!

lol yea presents are great Even if you don't believe in Santa, its not ruining Christmas or anything, its still a great time of year... altho it never is a s good as was when you were a kid is it. The excitement of legging it down stairs at 5am is great

Nevyn

This was one I gave a fair bit of consideration to when I had my own.
I am not one to just go with the status quo cos everyone else is and but I think that wonderment and awe are and should be part of a child's upbringing.
Mine see magic in many ways and in many places.
Hugs are magical, as are flowers and many other things.

When it comes to Santa they would have been the odd children speaking out
as lets face it 4 years olds do and mine are rather out spoken children ( no idea where they got that from what so ever :P ).

As for lying, I make a point of not doing so to my children at all,
I value the trust and relationship I have with them, I don't make promises I can't keep and will often say, maybe and we will see rather then say yes when circumstances are beyond my control.

I never sat them down and told them about Santa, they told me about him,
there is more then enough common folk lore for them to pick up and we have had discussion on where Santa comes from and I don't mean the north pole.
They both loved Terry Pratchett hogsfather and understand the power of traditions and people who believe in them.

Thye both know that if you don't believe in Santa he does not bring you presents and your parents get them for you, if and when they choose not to believe any more is up to them.

The fact that Norad has a santa tracking site is something which weighed in heavily on the is or isn't Santa real for them both, so it's not parents lying to kids it is a full on adult conspiracy with a lot of 'evidence' on the yes side. Yup my kids use critcal thinking and know what occams razor is and it think it's just about 'killed' Santa.

Last year I think was the last year tbh, neither of them has some out and said flat out there is no Santa, but they have both asked about getting Xor Y for christmas rather then will Santa bring me, which considering they are 11 and 9 is good going.

Is Santa a big fat lie or is he a traditional preformace piece which we all take part in to bring joy? There is art in magic and magic in art and both are needed as far as I am concerned.

big syke

In trying to keep within charter rules Tim, i completely and utterly disagree with everything you have to say about santa and their being better ways to get your children to use imagination.

And again trying to stay on topic and keep within charter rules etc many of your posts over the last day or two make it seem like your trying and rub people up the wrong way. to get a reaction. Just my two cents.

Tim Robbins

big syke wrote: »

In trying to keep within charter rules Tim, i completely and utterly disagree with everything you have to say about santa and their being better ways to get your children to use imagination.

And again trying to stay on topic and keep within charter rules etc many of your posts over the last day or two make it seem like your trying and rub people up the wrong way. to get a reaction. Just my two cents.

No I take a different viewpoint which obviously in this forum is clearly in the minority and I'll happily argue / discuss / defend what I think.

If you don't like the reasons you don't like them. Each to his / her own.

Nevyn

I don't think it is your reasons, but the way you are expressing them.
They are coming across as hostile accuatory and antagonisitic and we have a term for that it's trollish.

If you do want a good, intresting and civil discussion on this, great but getting people's backs up will not result in that type of discussion and is not welcome here.

big syke

Tim Robbins wrote: »

No I take a different viewpoint which obviously in this forum is clearly in the minority and I'll happily argue / discuss / defend what I think.

If you don't like the reasons you don't like them. Each to his / her own.

I am all for discussions and having differing opinions but but the language and how you reply rubs people up the wrong way.

Replys like

Can you not use your imagination on things that are actually not lies

I think it's sad people have to engage in lies to engage in a sense of joy.

It also shows that adults (and you as a parent) are capable of lieing throught your teeth to them when you feel it appropriate.

I'd like my kids to know that their Dad values the truth. Big deal.

are condescending, trollish and are trying to provoke other posters. I dont think i am alone in thinking this neither...

Max Power1

Quality wrote: »

I am honest to a degree, My kids believe in Santa, I will always say what are you getting off santa etc etc.

My 10 year old is asking a lot of questions

I just tell her..

That if she believes in Santa he will come to her and leave her presents.

If she doesnt believe in him then I will have to buy her presents for her.


I think she thinks she will get a better deal out of Santa, cause she says she would rather he came than I got her presents.

I have to say thats just genius! Never heard that approach before!

thorbarry

big syke wrote: »

are condescending, trollish and are trying to provoke other posters. I dont think i am alone in thinking this neither...

I concur

Nevyn

OK Back on topic please, hopefully Tim Robbins will take into consideration what has been pointed out to him, if anyone has any futher issues with posts please don't comment on them in the thread just report them for the mods to deal with. Thanks.

mark renton

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Hi,
I have heard of some parents being honest about Santa with their kids i.e. telling them he doesn't exist.

What are your views of this?

Some academics have also made the point that this approach means you are not lieing to your kids and can develope a better sense of trust between parent and child.

What you think?

I am not sure where I sit on it. Basically I never believed in Santa and I'd be a bit worried if they hadn't coped on by 6 - 7.

Up to that, I think I'll just be a bit fuzzy on the issue. I hate lieing but I think dropping them the facts on this issue might be a bit OTT even for someone like me.

Tell us what you think?

Thanks.

WHAT!! theres no such thing as Santa?? :mad:

Noffles

As soon as kids are old enough to discuss it in school there'll always be the one kid who knows there is no such thing and they take great pleasure in telling the others... then the kids get home and start asking questions... the end of the Santa stuff... not the end of the world as the kids still get the prezzies....

mark renton

Noffles wrote: »

As soon as kids are old enough to discuss it in school there'll always be the one kid who knows there is no such thing and they take great pleasure in telling the others

Noffles wrote: »

then the kids get home and start asking questions... the end of the Santa stuff... not the end of the world as the kids still get the prezzies....

materialistic from the beginning

Love2love

I would never want my child to miss out on the magic of Christmas. Its so wonderful for them to believe that there is one man who can travel the world in a single night delivering presents to children all over the globe.

I believe that by taking away Santa... you take away all of the magic of Christmas to a child. Every book, film, song ect is made up of this man in a red suit. So therefore all of them become null and void to a child that doesn't believe. That to me is very sad.

ih8northsiders

i found out in school about santa when i was 7 but there was no chance i was gonna let that ruin my christmas. i just blocked it out and for those few weeks let my imagination run wild.....in a lot of ways i still do.

mumto3

For me,it was the magic of santa and not the toys he brought that made mychristmass,when i was young.That feeling of excitment in my tummy going to bed,thinking he was going to come down the chimney and reward me for all my hard work tru out the year.
With kids of my own now,i still have that fussy feeling knowing that they are reliving that experience each year.
My oldest is 9 now,and still believes,no questions asked,and it will break my heart when he finds out.
He also believes in tooth fairy,as do my younger two.They are only kids,its their jobs to be useing their imagination,and have belief that anything is possible.Let them enjoy it for the short time that they do.
Dont be a grinch!!!

Tim Robbins

Love2love wrote: »

I would never want my child to miss out on the magic of Christmas. Its so wonderful for them to believe that there is one man who can travel the world in a single night delivering presents to children all over the globe.

I believe that by taking away Santa... you take away all of the magic of Christmas to a child. Every book, film, song ect is made up of this man in a red suit. So therefore all of them become null and void to a child that doesn't believe. That to me is very sad.

Would you not find it more fascinating the way birds fly across the world in seasonal migration?

Or that there are stars in the sky light years away?

Just curious...

thorbarry

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you not find it more fascinating the way birds fly across the world in seasonal migration?

Or that there are stars in the sky light years away?

Just curious...

I was fascinated with both them things.. and Santa. It doesn't have to be one or the other

Love2love

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you not find it more fascinating the way birds fly across the world in seasonal migration?

Or that there are stars in the sky light years away?

Just curious...

Yes I do but I'd love to see you explain that to a 3 year old. And as the previous poster said... Why is it one or the other????

Also, are you also going to prevent your children from reading books as they also contain ficitious characters or will it strictly be dictionaries and encyclopedias in the Robbins household?

I am very curious to know why you started this thread if you weren't actually open to anyone else opinion unless it agrees with you own?

Tim Robbins

Love2love wrote: »

Yes I do but I'd love to see you explain that to a 3 year old. And as the previous poster said... Why is it one or the other????

Because one is true, the other is a lie.

Also, are you also going to prevent your children from reading books as they also contain ficitious characters or will it strictly be dictionaries and encyclopedias in the Robbins household?

No because the book doesn't claim they are true.

I am very curious to know why you started this thread if you weren't actually open to anyone else opinion unless it agrees with you own?

Of course I am open to it.
That's just like me saying why is anyone here posting unless they agree with me?

I am just not hearing any good arguments. Just things like: don't be a "grinch". Which is just name calling. Not a good argument imo.

thorbarry

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Because one is true, the other is a lie.


No because the book doesn't claim they are true.



Of course I am open to it.
That's just like me saying why is anyone here posting unless they agree with me?

I am just not hearing any good arguments. Just things like: don't be a "grinch". Which is just name calling. Not a good argument imo.

It seems like your main argument is that you are lying to your children. What about some of my other posts about this? Would you tell your kid that they are too fat and ugly to be a model, or too thick to be an accountant.. or that their dead pet rots in the ground and doesn't go to animal heaven.

"my friend says rover is in animal heaven "
"don't be crazy, its not in animal heaven, its dead"

Wantobe

The argument for 'lying' to your children and saying Santa exists;

As presented by Wantobe, mother of two, and most of the time, quite clueless.

So that Christmas is magic. So that you feed their imagination. So that they spend the weeks leading up to Christmas in a state of excitement. And, I'm not ashamed to admit it, so that you can use the argument- Santa is watching if you're going to be naughty or nice- to get them to eat their vegs, tidy up or win just about any argument. So that you can read- The night before christmas- and answer twenty million questions about Santa, the north pole, reindeers, Mrs. Claus, how the sleigh flies ( you could use this to explain some basics of Physics if you like- with the rider, the reindeers are magic)- and watch their eyes light up with wonder. So that you plan a meal to be left out for Santa, and watch their fun deciding what biscuits to leave out or milk.Or indeed have them join in with making the biscuits themselves. So that you can watch them fight sleep just so they can get a glimpse of Santa. So that you can watch them wake up on Christmas morning and see their pure joy and excitement that he really came and brought them presents. So that you can play one big game with them, about believing in Santa, and know that a hell of a lot of people the whole world over are all joining in. So that they can watch the News talk about Santa coming or Santa films or cartoons, or read Christmas books, or watch that website which shows where santa is now or any number of just brilliant things that you can do for a month or more around Christmas time. So that your child, who you are going to love more than anyone or anything else in the world with a fierceness that will surprise you, will be happy.

Tim Robbins

thorbarry wrote: »

It seems like your main argument is that you are lying to your children. What about some of my other posts about this? Would you tell your kid that they are too fat and ugly to be a model, or too thick to be an accountant.. or that their dead pet rots in the ground and doesn't go to animal heaven.

"my friend says rover is in animal heaven "
"don't be crazy, its not in animal heaven, its dead"

1. They are all matters of opinion not fact.
2. Even if you are fat you can still be a model.
3. I'd offend too many people if I gave my opinion on being an accountant.
4. I would never use such harsh language. That would be the equivalent of telling your child that people who believe in santa are dimb wits.

Tim Robbins

Wantobe wrote: »

The argument for 'lying' to your children and saying Santa exists;

As presented by Wantobe, mother of two, and most of the time, quite clueless.
...

I never felt even close to that way as a child abouy Santa. Did you?
Although I loved playing in Football tournements and it required no lies and I can look back and say: "yes that was all real".

I remember I loved Hulk Hogan when I was young and my Dad went out of his way to tell me it was all staged. Do you think that's mean?

W.B. Yeats

Tim Robbins wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

Show me one adult damaged as a result of hearing the truth about Santa

I already did. My sister said she found it traumatic so did some other friends.



Also two people who don't like lieing...

WUM
Wind up merchant

Khannie

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you not find it more fascinating the way birds fly across the world in seasonal migration?

Or that there are stars in the sky light years away?

Just curious...

I'm going to reiterate Thaedydals suggestion that you keep it on topic.

Wantobe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I never felt even close to that way as a child abouy Santa. Did you?
Although I loved playing in Football tournements and it required no lies and I can look back and say: "yes that was all real".

I remember I loved Hulk Hogan when I was young and my Dad went out of his way to tell me it was all staged. Do you think that's mean?

I was the youngest of 6 children with a 10 year gap between the oldest and I so I knew very early on that Santa didn't exist as the others told me. My parents tried to perpetuate the myth of Santa for as long as they could though. There was no such thing as the easter bunny or the tooth fairy or any other magical creature then, just Santa.

I don't know if it was mean that your father told you Hulk Hogan was staged- how did you feel about it?

I had a very active imagination as a child- I read probably every book in our local library and I fell in love with Irish mythology and folktales. I used to half believe in the Tuatha De Danann for a long time. I would spend hours playing in the fields near my home, making little mud forts and fairy lands out of the clay in the ditches, imagining big stones were fairy stones, visiting old forts, pretending I was one and pretending to hunt or cook on an outdoors fire etc. Then I went through a whole phase of thinking I could be self-sufficient by growing my own vegetables, raising rabbits and other small animals and birds and living in a tent. Again I spent a whole summer living outdoors apart from bed time when my parents insisted I come in to the house. Then I went through a phase of wanting to be a song writer and I used to ( I imagine) torture my mother with the songs I had written. My parents just let me live in those worlds, encouraged me to explore those things. I particularly remember the Tuatha De Danann phase as being really magical for me- it sounds ridiculous in retrospect, but it is a great memory. I'd see Santa as just being a phase, allowing your child to explore their imagination, a bit of magic in what can be a really mundane life.

candy-gal1

what about santa?!

Tim Robbins

Wantobe wrote: »

I don't know if it was mean that your father told you Hulk Hogan was staged- how did you feel about it?

I didn't understand him and just believed it.

Anyway, do you not think you are being inconsistent between Santa and hulk Hogan?

I had a very active imagination as a child- I read probably every book in our local library and I fell in love with Irish mythology and folktales. I used to half believe in the Tuatha De Danann for a long time. I would spend hours playing in the fields near my home, making little mud forts and fairy lands out of the clay in the ditches, imagining big stones were fairy stones, visiting old forts, pretending I was one and pretending to hunt or cook on an outdoors fire etc. Then I went through a whole phase of thinking I could be self-sufficient by growing my own vegetables, raising rabbits and other small animals and birds and living in a tent. Again I spent a whole summer living outdoors apart from bed time when my parents insisted I come in to the house. Then I went through a phase of wanting to be a song writer and I used to ( I imagine) torture my mother with the songs I had written. My parents just let me live in those worlds, encouraged me to explore those things. I particularly remember the Tuatha De Danann phase as being really magical for me- it sounds ridiculous in retrospect, but it is a great memory. I'd see Santa as just being a phase, allowing your child to explore their imagination, a bit of magic in what can be a really mundane life.

I don't it sound ridiculous. All that sounds brilliant actually. I like that creative song writing thing. That's what I call real imagination.

I just don't think Santa needs the big push he gets.

Wantobe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't it sound ridiculous. All that sounds brilliant actually. I like that creative song writing thing. That's what I call real imagination.

My parents allowed me to be imaginative. They allowed me to dream, to believe in fairies and allowed me to believe I could be anything. I was allowed to work out for myself what was real and what was not. Funnily enough the world has a way of showing which is which really early on!:cool:

As for Hulk Hogan- I'm not being inconsistent- you asked if I thought he was mean. It depends on the circumstances, what age you were, how attached you were to the character etc etc. I couldn't second guess the circumstances in which your father told you that. Part of the problem of being a parent is that sometimes you have to make hard choices- if the situation warrants it.

eviltwin

I believe every parent should be free to raise their child how they see fit. Telling a young kid Santa doesnt exist isn't nice but its not child abuse so if Tim wants to be honest from Day one thats his business.

What I don't like is the way he is saying that those of us who choose to let our kids believe are lying to them and somehow implying that as a result we are bad parents or doing them harm...

Tim with all due respect you aren't a parent so right now you have no idea what you are talking about. Sometimes you will find that your kids respond in such a way to certain things that your original intentions go right out the window.

I'd love to see you actually having the balls with going through with breaking your childs heart by telling them the truth