Honest about Santa

miss no stars

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think there's something very manipulative about the Santa lie. It thrives on materialism whereas other lies and imaginary friends don't seem to.

I think humans should try to get over their craving materialistic needs not nurture them.

kid in toy shop - "Can I have that mum?"
mother - "no, you'll have to ask santa for it and if you're really good he'll bring it"

If anything it teaches kids that they can't have everything they want and if one toy comes up against another in terms of what to put down on the list they make choices. How is that making them into capitalist, materialist monsters?

Tim, it's clear you've probably not even had any interaction with kids as anyone who has seen a kid's eyes light up about christmas and the magic of it would not begrudge them santa. And that's what it is - begrudgery.

Kids being born these days are expected to live to near 100, santa belief disappears at what, 10? That's plenty of time to be all too aware of the real world, why take away the 8 years or so that a kid gets to experience the magic of going to bed and waking up to find santa has been? Christmas is magical, for kids especially. Why break a 3 or 4 year old's heart by telling them "no santa's not real"? Why do it? They'll figure that one out for themselves when they get a little older. And it would break their heart. Even older kids nearing secondary school still kinda want santa to be real, even if they know in their heart he's not. Why? Santa rocks.

Deliverance

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Hi,
I have heard of some parents being honest about Santa with their kids i.e. telling them he doesn't exist.

What are your views of this?

Some academics have also made the point that this approach means you are not lieing to your kids and can develope a better sense of trust between parent and child.

What you think?

I am not sure where I sit on it. Basically I never believed in Santa and I'd be a bit worried if they hadn't coped on by 6 - 7.

Up to that, I think I'll just be a bit fuzzy on the issue. I hate lieing but I think dropping them the facts on this issue might be a bit OTT even for someone like me.

Tell us what you think?

Thanks.

Not sure myself really. I just remember waking up on xmas morning as a kid and having these magical materialised gifts at the end of my bed. It was so amazing, it didn't matter where they came from at all. I just played and played with these new toys. It was great.

In later years I spent hours with my parents assembling toys for my younger siblings. This was almost as magical as an experience by anticipation of their reaction. It is a beautiful thing, it is a fantasy, and it is what childhood is about.

To me xmas is about kids and families getting together. A simple fantastical story of an 'annual gift' man brings families together through their childrens needs is in a way a great eqalizer that will evoke long term memories to the children about how much the parents cared about them and indeed went to the effort of getting them what they wanted unselfishly.

Tim Robbins

miss no stars wrote: »

kid in toy shop - "Can I have that mum?"
mother - "no, you'll have to ask santa for it and if you're really good he'll bring it"

kid in toy shop - "Can I have that Mum?"
mother - No.

That teaches kids that just don't get things because they want them.

A happiness based on getting things is materialistic and I think a shallow form of happiness.

Tim Robbins

Deliverance wrote: »

To me xmas is about kids and families getting together. A simple fantastical story of an 'annual gift' man brings families together through their childrens needs is in a way a great eqalizer that will evoke long term memories to the children about how much the parents cared about them and indeed went to the effort of getting them what they wanted unselfishly.

I am sorry but if you want to look at it honsetly, "unselfish" is when you get nothing back in return. True Agape as the Greeks called it.

Parents spoil their kids see their kids very happy very easily. This makes the parents feel good and hence is not unselfish. Something unselfish would be parents giving up golf or something they like doing for something the kid likes doing. Santa entails very little sacrifice on the parents and is a high yield. It's very time efficient way of making your kids happy.

I am sorry, I think there's a lot delusions going on here. People are bending over backwards to justify their lies. I haven't seen one good reason from any of you. What you are all doing is "backwards rationalisation".

You want to do the Santa game and then you rationalise it backwards.
Instead of taking a sound principle, thinking through it forwards and seeing if it results in Santa.

ebmma

Tim Robbins wrote: »

kid in toy shop - "Can I have that Mum?"
mother - No.

That teaches kids that just don't get things because they want them.

A happiness based on getting things is materialistic and I think a shallow form of happiness.

kid in toy shop - "Can I have that Mum?"
mother - No, we can't afford it right now, but maybe you can get it for your Birthday/Christmas.

or

No, I don't think it is an appropriate toy. [Insert a simple explanation why]

or

No, sorry dear, we cannot afford expensive toys at the moment as your dad has lost his job and we need to save money.

Monkey61

This thread has been really interesting as I am actually surprised to find that anyone could think that the whole Santa thing could in anyway be a negative thing. I can't believe anyone could deprive a child of Santa (yes I am using a very emotive word purposely) purely because the magic and mystery was such a huge part of the joy of my childhood.

I love Santa not for the presents, but for the sense of being a part of something bigger than myself. The hours spent wondering how he could do it and knowing that there wasn't an explanation - priceless. Giving oneself and ones belief systems over completely to something like that just doesn't exist in the adult world other than in a religious capacity and I really treasure those childhood memories.

I wouldn't consider it "lying" and I would hope that one day I will raise my children well enough that when they discover that Santa isn't real, they won't lose all faith in me for "lying" to them. Should they turn out to be bitter little pedants - well then I will know that I haven't done my job as a parent properly and I shall disown them immediately for their own good!

we'llallhavetea_old

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am sorry but if you want to look at it honsetly, "unselfish" is when you get nothing back in return. True Agape as the Greeks called it.

Parents spoil their kids see their kids very happy very easily. This makes the parents feel good and hence is not unselfish. Something unselfish would be parents giving up golf or something they like doing for something the kid likes doing. Santa entails very little sacrifice on the parents and is a high yield. It's very time efficient way of making your kids happy.

I am sorry, I think there's a lot delusions going on here. People are bending over backwards to justify their lies. I haven't seen one good reason from any of you. What you are all doing is "backwards rationalisation".

You want to do the Santa game and then you rationalise it backwards.
Instead of taking a sound principle, thinking through it forwards and seeing if it results in Santa.

well i dont know about everyone else but, there will be no new clothes or nights out from now until christmas for me, i solely concentrate on spending all the money on presents for my daughter. and then after christmas i'll be no doubt catching up for at least a month, so no money for mammy then either!

so what, we "play the santa game", the kids love it, the parents love it, if they didn't it wouldn't be done. nobody here is claiming its not a lie, it is. :rolleyes:

Tim Robbins

Monkey61 wrote: »

This thread has been really interesting as I am actually surprised to find that anyone could think that the whole Santa thing could in anyway be a negative thing. I can't believe anyone could deprive a child of Santa (yes I am using a very emotive word purposely) purely because the magic and mystery was such a huge part of the joy of my childhood.

I love Santa not for the presents, but for the sense of being a part of something bigger than myself. The hours spent wondering how he could do it and knowing that there wasn't an explanation - priceless. Giving oneself and ones belief systems over completely to something like that just doesn't exist in the adult world other than in a religious capacity and I really treasure those childhood memories.

I wouldn't consider it "lying" and I would hope that one day I will raise my children well enough that when they discover that Santa isn't real, they won't lose all faith in me for "lying" to them. Should they turn out to be bitter little pedants - well then I will know that I haven't done my job as a parent properly and I shall disown them immediately for their own good!

As has already being pointed out, by definition it is lying. Fact.

Here's a question for the pro - Santa-ites. If the materialism element was taken out from Santa, say he gave no presents at all he just gave them a blessing of sorts?

What would you think of that?

Think about it and tell me what you think?

we'llallhavetea_old

but he doesn't so....

eviltwin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

As has already being pointed out, by definition it is lying. Fact.

Here's a question for the pro - Santa-ites. If the materialism element was taken out from Santa, say he gave no presents at all he just gave them a blessing of sorts?

What would you think of that?

Think about it and tell me what you think?

I'd still be all for it.

Nevyn

You consider it lying and hramful Tim Robbins other posters do not.
If you keep trying to push the point that parents who indulge in Santa with their children are lairs which can be considered defamination of character and therefore personal abuse you will be banned form this forum.
This is your last warning, change your tack and tone or suffer a ban.

ncmc

Wantobe wrote: »

The argument for 'lying' to your children and saying Santa exists;

As presented by Wantobe, mother of two, and most of the time, quite clueless.

So that Christmas is magic. So that you feed their imagination. So that they spend the weeks leading up to Christmas in a state of excitement. And, I'm not ashamed to admit it, so that you can use the argument- Santa is watching if you're going to be naughty or nice- to get them to eat their vegs, tidy up or win just about any argument. So that you can read- The night before christmas- and answer twenty million questions about Santa, the north pole, reindeers, Mrs. Claus, how the sleigh flies ( you could use this to explain some basics of Physics if you like- with the rider, the reindeers are magic)- and watch their eyes light up with wonder. So that you plan a meal to be left out for Santa, and watch their fun deciding what biscuits to leave out or milk.Or indeed have them join in with making the biscuits themselves. So that you can watch them fight sleep just so they can get a glimpse of Santa. So that you can watch them wake up on Christmas morning and see their pure joy and excitement that he really came and brought them presents. So that you can play one big game with them, about believing in Santa, and know that a hell of a lot of people the whole world over are all joining in. So that they can watch the News talk about Santa coming or Santa films or cartoons, or read Christmas books, or watch that website which shows where santa is now or any number of just brilliant things that you can do for a month or more around Christmas time. So that your child, who you are going to love more than anyone or anything else in the world with a fierceness that will surprise you, will be happy.

I actually had a tear in my eye reading this post, and I don't even have children! I have to say, that it is one of the aspects of motherhood that I really look forward to. I'm a big baby about Christmas myself, so can't imagine what I'd be like if I had children! thank you for posting this Wantobe, and for not being at all clueless

yogidc26

Wantobe wrote: »

The argument for 'lying' to your children and saying Santa exists;

As presented by Wantobe, mother of two, and most of the time, quite clueless.

So that Christmas is magic. So that you feed their imagination. So that they spend the weeks leading up to Christmas in a state of excitement. And, I'm not ashamed to admit it, so that you can use the argument- Santa is watching if you're going to be naughty or nice- to get them to eat their vegs, tidy up or win just about any argument. So that you can read- The night before christmas- and answer twenty million questions about Santa, the north pole, reindeers, Mrs. Claus, how the sleigh flies ( you could use this to explain some basics of Physics if you like- with the rider, the reindeers are magic)- and watch their eyes light up with wonder. So that you plan a meal to be left out for Santa, and watch their fun deciding what biscuits to leave out or milk.Or indeed have them join in with making the biscuits themselves. So that you can watch them fight sleep just so they can get a glimpse of Santa. So that you can watch them wake up on Christmas morning and see their pure joy and excitement that he really came and brought them presents. So that you can play one big game with them, about believing in Santa, and know that a hell of a lot of people the whole world over are all joining in. So that they can watch the News talk about Santa coming or Santa films or cartoons, or read Christmas books, or watch that website which shows where santa is now or any number of just brilliant things that you can do for a month or more around Christmas time. So that your child, who you are going to love more than anyone or anything else in the world with a fierceness that will surprise you, will be happy.

Couldn't have put it better myself

Deliverance

Tim Robbins wrote: »

As has already being pointed out, by definition it is lying. Fact.

Here's a question for the pro - Santa-ites. If the materialism element was taken out from Santa, say he gave no presents at all he just gave them a blessing of sorts?

What would you think of that?

Think about it and tell me what you think?

Then that would bring a religious angle into your argument? I like a good debate / argument myself but this is getting a small bit off topic by your replies. If you are not actually a parent yourself Tim, then to me you have exhausted this line of exploration. You got your answers from parents in general. That should be enough to go on for you.

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a v.interesting question but every parent has probably already thought about it as a matter of course.

Have to ask, are you a philosophy student?

Tim Robbins

Deliverance wrote: »

Then that would bring a religious angle into your argument? I like a good debate / argument myself but this is getting a small bit off topic by your replies. If you are not actually a parent yourself Tim, then to me you have exhausted this line of exploration. You got your answers from parents in general. That should be enough to go on for you.

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a v.interesting question but every parent has probably already thought about it as a matter of course.

It's a thought experiment. Thought experiments are done all the time in philosophy, critical thinking to help get to the nub of the issue.

I'd like to get to the nub of this Santa thing.

I wanted a challenging intellectual debate and it seems too many have just got offended about what I have said which is a shame.

Basically, I would have liked if parents accepted the facts it is a lie and then we could have had a philosophical discussion about when some lies are acceptable and when some lies aren't.

I see Santa has a the confluence of three things:

1. a lie
2. a tool to fuel imagination
3. a play on materialistic cravings.

2 is good but 1 and 3 are bad.

What I was doing with the thought experiment was seeing what way Santa would change if we removed 1, 2 or 3?

What would happened if Santa didn't fuel kids imagination at all? What would happen if kids had no materialistic cravings?

The purpose of this was to see how strong a role each factor plays in Santa because ultimately I see it as a question do the merits of 2 outweight the badness of 1 and 3. And if so why?

But unfortunately in this thread because so many people refuse to accept Santa is a lie, we can't get to that stage.

With hindsight I think this thread would have been more suited to another forum where would explore the issue in analytic detail.

Have to ask, are you a philosophy student?

Why do you ask?

I read a lot of philosophy, critical thinking, logic etc. but I am 12 years out of college which was just an Engineering degree!

Nevyn

You are in the wrong forum for that type of debate, try humanities.