yes to jobs...

nullzero

I would have to say that the greatest idea the Yes side had in the run up to Lisbon 2 was to link the treaty to the Irish economic crisis.
It was a simple but effective idea that played on the inherant selfishness of the "celtic tiger" generation, whilst also handily side stepping the actual content of the treaty.

To believe that the EU is going to continue throwing money at us indefinitely whilst we continue to throw in down the toilet is stupid.
The Lisbon debate is now over and we will have to live with the Lisbon treaty from now on, but it's fanciful to say that our economy will benifit from our Yes to Lisbon. When you say that you're ignoring a raft of facts that state otherwise.
Using economic recovery as a ruse to make people vote Yes was clever, but untrue.
If we want a stable economy we'll have to build it from within, because as we currently stand (relying on foriegn investment when there are better places for foreign investment to go) we are only going to see our economy decline further.
We need to create a sustainable economic model as foriegn investors no longer see us an attractive option. We may never see wealth on the celtic tiger scale again, but it is possible for us to be economically self sufficient to some degree.
Unless we take the initiative and drag ourselves up by our own boot laces we will never get back on our feet. I'm sure there are gasps of dis belief around Europe at Irelands inability to turn over a decades worth of EU assisted economic prosperity into anything resembling a tangible set of infrastructural achievements. Based on that I find it hard to believe that the EU will waste it's time carrying us in the way it has been in the past. All of Europe is in financial difficulty, so why should we be treated as a special case?

I just hope we don't waste 4-5 years realising these things and actually start getting our fingers out and doing something constructive, instead of waiting for the EU to come to our rescue.

truthisfree

nullzero wrote: »

I would have to say that the greatest idea the Yes side had in the run up to Lisbon 2 was to link the treaty to the Irish economic crisis.
It was a simple but effective idea that played on the inherant selfishness of the "celtic tiger" generation, whilst also handily side stepping the actual content of the treaty.

To believe that the EU is going to continue throwing money at us indefinitely whilst we continue to throw in down the toilet is stupid.
The Lisbon debate is now over and we will have to live with the Lisbon treaty from now on, but it's fanciful to say that our economy will benifit from our Yes to Lisbon. When you say that you're ignoring a raft of facts that state otherwise.
Using economic recovery as a ruse to make people vote Yes was clever, but untrue.
If we want a stable economy we'll have to build it from within, because as we currently stand (relying on foriegn investment when there are better places for foreign investment to go) we are only going to see our economy decline further.
We need to create a sustainable economic model as foriegn investors no longer see us an attractive option. We may never see wealth on the celtic tiger scale again, but it is possible for us to be economically self sufficient to some degree.
Unless we take the initiative and drag ourselves up by our own boot laces we will never get back on our feet. I'm sure there are gasps of dis belief around Europe at Irelands inability to turn over a decades worth of EU assisted economic prosperity into anything resembling a tangible set of infrastructural achievements. Based on that I find it hard to believe that the EU will waste it's time carrying us in the way it has been in the past. All of Europe is in financial difficulty, so why should we be treated as a special case?

I just hope we don't waste 4-5 years realising these things and actually start getting our fingers out and doing something constructive, instead of waiting for the EU to come to our rescue.

Agreed and herein lies the main problem with the Yes voters, they think incorrectly that the EU will step in and aid us financially. The only "Stepping in" anyone will do is the IMF and that is still a possibility.
The way in the Yes campaign was "sold" to the electorate was inherently wrong, and they bought it! unfortunately this signifies a people who are only too willing to put their hand out to the EU with the begging bowl again instead of trying to create indigenous industries.

Unfortunately I think that it will take 4-5 years for this reality to sink in as well as some of the further reaching consequences of the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. I agree that we may never see the wealth generated by the celtic tiger and tbh I do not want to see it again either, it was the crassest, most self obsessed period ever.

bonkey

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sorry
jobs ∉ lisbon
∵ lisbon = legal competencies as granted by constitutional amendment ≠ job creation

Impressed though I am, at your neat mathematical summation, your logic fails here, where you effectively assume your conclusion.

In effect, your argument boils down to "if we assume that the direct effect of lisbon was not job creation, then the posters were false".

bonkey

truthisfree wrote: »

Agreed and herein lies the main problem with the Yes voters, they think incorrectly that the EU will step in and aid us financially.

Where have yes voters argued this?

Its a genuine question, because the only places I've seen this "EU will step in and aid us" line is from No voters saying its what the Yes voters think...and in responses from Yes voters saying "No, that's not it at all".

Maybe this was in the Irish media somewhere? Living abroad, I wouldn't have seen that.

truthisfree

bonkey wrote: »

Where have yes voters argued this?

Its a genuine question, because the only places I've seen this "EU will step in and aid us" line is from No voters saying its what the Yes voters think...and in responses from Yes voters saying "No, that's not it at all".

Maybe this was in the Irish media somewhere? Living abroad, I wouldn't have seen that.

Yes for Jobs, on the FF website just to name one!

Sam Vimes

truthisfree wrote: »

Yes for Jobs, on the FF website just to name one!

You got "the EU will step in and aid us financially" from "Yes for Jobs"

turgon

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You got "the EU will step in and aid us financially" from "Yes for Jobs"

Well this is from the same side of the debate that read the article stating that amendments to the EU Treaties would have to be ratified "in accordance with each member states constitutional requirements" as somehow "self-amending."

The No side certainly don't win any prizes for their powers of interpretation.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RedPlanet

As usual on boads.ie when you challenge a group of people on one side of any issue, they retreat into pedantics.
It's the last refuge of a loosing side of a debate.

oscarBravo

RedPlanet wrote: »

...they retreat into pedantics.

"Pedantry", actually.

meglome

oscarBravo wrote: »

"Pedantry", actually.

Not to mention I don't recall loosing.

kryogen

bonkey wrote: »

Where have yes voters argued this?

Its a genuine question, because the only places I've seen this "EU will step in and aid us" line is from No voters saying its what the Yes voters think...and in responses from Yes voters saying "No, that's not it at all".

Maybe this was in the Irish media somewhere? Living abroad, I wouldn't have seen that.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/lisbon/entry/yes-to-lisbon-and-economic-recovery-lenihan/

ES TO LISBON AND ECONOMIC RECOVERY - LENIHAN
Posted on 28/09/09 by Fianna Fáil


On Friday the people will make a fundamental decision about the future of this country. On the ballot paper will be a clear choice between Ireland moving forward in partnership with a reformed European Union or taking a new and uncertain route.



During this campaign Fianna Fáil has worked to show why Europe matters to Ireland and why it matters that we vote yes to the Lisbon Treaty. In relation to the economy nobody has seriously challenged the basic point that Europe provides an essential foundation for recovery. Indeed, senior figures from Irish commercial life have actively campaigned for a yes vote. Those who head up our largest companies have called for a yes vote. A survey of over 300 chief executives which together employ thousands of people shows that 91% of them believe a Yes vote is important for recovery.

The IDA, the organisation which is responsible for attracting industry form abroad to provide jobs for our people have said a yes vote is essential if we are to continue to attract those jobs. A yes vote is in fact the consensus view among those who are at the coalface of enterprise and job creation in this country.





I note form the weekend newspapers that one of the main backers of Mr Declan Ganly, who has lately take up the cudgels against Lisbon again, is a London based hedge fund which could hardly be described as being interested in the economic well being of this country.



Let me summarise the economic case for a yes vote: A Yes vote will support confidence in Ireland as a place to invest. It will protect Ireland's influence in Europe. It will make the European Union more effective in assisting economic growth here and throughout Europe.



A No vote will damage investor confidence in the future direction of Ireland. WE are borrowing €400 million a week to run this country. The Chief executive of the NTMA, Dr Michael Somers whose job it is to get that money has confirmed that we got a very negative reaction to the not vote on the last occasion. And he has said a no vote on this occasion would result in an increase in the cost of our borrowing. As I said last week, the markets from which we borrow will not understand why we are voting against our own economic interest and this will undoubtedly result in a loss of investor confidence.

It is clear that a No vote will see Ireland move away from the core group of nations which can influence decisions within the Union. A Yes will put us at the heart of Europe at this crucial time as we build a path to economic recovery. In the daily work of the Union, Ireland has long punched above its weight because other member states know we want Europe to work and move forward. Even when we disagree with others they know we're on the same side. To stand against a reform Treaty which all other countries want even after we have received comprehensive legal guarantees on our key issues would be seen as an explicit move by Ireland to the sidelines of Europe.





The reform which is at the centre of the Lisbon Treaty is essential if the Union is to deal effectively with the global economic and financial crisis. A No vote will result in a Union that has its hands tied in dealing with challenges faced by all members - while a Yes vote will lead to a Union that is more dynamic and effective on our behalf. Many of the Union's key rules are from a former era when an iron curtain divided Europe. There was no internet and global trade was a fraction of what it is today. The limitations of the existing structures and the need for reform has been made clear during the crisis. For example, it has benefited no one that the Presidency of the Council has changed five times since the start of last year. When Europe works better it works better for Ireland.





In the face of the overwhelming support of those with a direct interest in job creation and economic recovery the No arguments have been reduced to saying "there's nothing in the Treaty about jobs". This is nonsense. Economic growth and full employment are set out as explicit objectives of the Union and the core purpose of the reforms contained in the Treaty is to help Europe to compete in the modern economy.



The period of recovery and growth which began in the late 1980s emerged from a combination of domestic reform and European reform. When we went to the polls to vote on the Single European Act in 1987 we were engaged in major adjustments at home and presented with a major reform to the procedures and policies of Union. The Irish people voted Yes to Europe then and this decision was a vital part of our regeneration. The opponents of Europe told us then that the Treaty would do nothing for our economy but hundreds of thousands of jobs were created by that Yes vote.


We listened to the positive and negative arguments and chose to take the European road to recovery. The same choice faces us on Friday.



The contribution of Europe to Ireland is unequalled and the arguments to supporting its reform through the Lisbon Treaty are compelling. For those who are concerned with sustainable economic recovery a Yes on Friday is
essential


http://www.pr-inside.com/acceptance-of-lisbon-treaty-will-aid-r1487299.htm

Acceptance Of Lisbon Treaty Will Aid Irish Economic Recovery Says Killeen
Print article
Refer to a friend

2009-09-17 21:20:59 - Junior Minister and Clare Deputy Tony Killeen has said that Ireland's acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty in the upcoming Referendum would greatly assist Irish economic recovery and ensure that the country remained at the centre of Europe.


Minister of State Killeen noted that the scale of the current economic challenges could only be tackled by countries working more closely together.

He continued: "We need an efficient and reformed EU to help us. Europe has listened to the Irish people and has given new guarantees on all of the main issues from last year. The Treaty is subject to

these legal guarantees. Bearing in mind that in over 50 years the EU has fully honoured every one of many similar guarantees, we can be sure that voting Yes to Lisbon is a vote for economic recovery in both Ireland and Europe. No is the vote for Ireland taking a step away in a new and more uncertain direction".

Commenting on the legal guarantees received from the EU in June, Minister of State Killeen pointed out: "Voting Yes will ensure Ireland retains its Commissioner. A No vote will mean current rules remain, which means the loss of automatic Commission membership immediately. In 2008, 80% of people were concerned about this issue. It has now been addressed."

"Voting Yes will enhance Ireland's ability to attract investment. The people who invest in Ireland and support hundred of thousands of jobs say that confidence in our position as a Euro-positive country matters a lot for them. Only a Yes will help maintain confidence at this difficult time. Voting Yes is also good for workers and social protection. The Treaty is based on the idea of enabling both growth and social protection, building on the Union's role as the great protection of workers and consumers", he added.

Minister of State Killeen said that Ireland needed a reformed EU to tackle the economic crisis. "A Union frozen in the past is of no use to anyone, but a Union that is more dynamic and effective is essential for our future. A more efficient EU is to our benefit. We also need to send a strong signal to our EU partners and to international investors that we are a fully engaged EU country. Ratifying Lisbon will send this vital signal", he concluded.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/lisbon-treaty-campaign-yes-jobs

Yes for the Economy

Helping member states to grow and create jobs has been a core part of the European Union’s work throughout its existence.

An integral part of this has been the fact that the EU has worked hard to reform and develop. Ireland has always been to the fore in both supporting reform and benefitting from it.

Investment, growth and job creation for Ireland are not possible without membership of a dynamic EU.

Ireland needs a reformed EU to tackle the Economic Crisis:

• Many of the biggest problems in this crisis are too big for countries to tackle alone - the last year has shown the need for an EU which can act faster and more effectively on our behalf.
• Lisbon will ensure that the EU is able to act on vital economic areas such as financial regulation, energy security and support for innovation.

Voting Yes will enhance Ireland’s ability to attract investment:

• Ireland’s attractiveness as a destination for Foreign Direct Investment stems directly form its positive approach to EU membership, which offers a secure gateway to a market of 500 million people.
• By dispelling any uncertainty about its status in Europe, Ireland will enhance its attractiveness as a destination for Foreign Direct Investment.
• At a time when competition for foreign investment is very strong, Ireland needs to show that it is fully committed to supporting a dynamic European market.

Voting Yes will help Ireland become an Innovation Hub:

• Ireland’s bid to become a centre for innovation will be greatly enhanced by voting Yes to Lisbon.
• The Lisbon Treaty pushes the EU forward in its support for high quality research and development projects.
• This will improve Ireland’s competitiveness and drive employment as Ireland strives to become a knowledge-based economy.

Voting Yes will create more trade opportunities for Ireland:

• The Lisbon Treaty will make the EU more coherent thereby strengthening its hand in external trade negotiations.
• Ireland will reap the benefits of being part of a more influential and better functioning power bloc.
• The Lisbon Treaty will improve development policies in non-EU countries. This will facilitate the opening up of more markets for EU and Irish goods.

Voting Yes will help energy security:

• The Lisbon Treaty recognises the importance of energy security and the benefits that this can bring.
• In improving its energy sources, the EU and Ireland can create cleaner, cheaper energy and create green jobs.

Voting Yes will help combat Climate Change:

• The Lisbon Treaty is the first Treaty to refer to climate change as part of the Union’s competence on environmental issues. This reference was included at the request of the Irish government and it gives the Union a specific basis for promoting environmental action against climate change.
• The fight against Climate Change is best tackled by the full strength of the EU rather than states acting alone.

Voting Yes is good for small states like Ireland:

• Provisions in the new “double majority” voting system will be weighted in favour of countries with smaller populations.
• There are also safeguards in place to prevent larger member states pushing through decisions.



if you can be bothered reading all of that or even searching with google yourself you will find plenty of references to Europe helping us financially

Sam Vimes

I only read the first two articles because I couldn't see in either of them a claim that "the EU will step in and aid us" so I wasn't hopeful for finding one in the rest of them......

brianthebard

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I only read the first two articles because I couldn't see in either of them a claim that "the EU will step in and aid us" so I wasn't hopeful for finding one in the rest of them......

That was bonkey's phrase, not kryogen's, and I don't think it was taken as a direct quote, so your above post amounts to little more than a strawman. The article's kryogen posted clearly point to the link made by the Yes campaign between Lisbon and jobs. Further, it re-emphasises the hypocrisy I highlighted in my OP whereby the Aer Lingus promoted Lisbon as securing jobs, then made several hundred workers redundant days afterwards.

Sam Vimes

brianthebard wrote: »

That was bonkey's phrase, not kryogen's, and I don't think it was taken as a direct quote, so your above post amounts to little more than a strawman. The article's kryogen posted clearly point to the link made by the Yes campaign between Lisbon and jobs. Further, it re-emphasises the hypocrisy I highlighted in my OP whereby the Aer Lingus promoted Lisbon as securing jobs, then made several hundred workers redundant days afterwards.

bonkey asked where yes voters have claimed that "the EU will step in and aid us" and kryogen's reply gave not only articles that did not contain that direct quote but articles that did not in any was suggest that the EU would aid us. Instead he gave articles that talk about investor confidence, a more efficient and dynamic EU, attractiveness which stems from a positive approach to EU membership etc.

"Creating a link between Lisbon and jobs" =/= "the EU will step in and aid us"

I'm not the one erecting straw men here.

Scofflaw

brianthebard wrote: »

That was bonkey's phrase, not kryogen's, and I don't think it was taken as a direct quote, so your above post amounts to little more than a strawman. The article's kryogen posted clearly point to the link made by the Yes campaign between Lisbon and jobs. Further, it re-emphasises the hypocrisy I highlighted in my OP whereby the Aer Lingus promoted Lisbon as securing jobs, then made several hundred workers redundant days afterwards.

bonkey put forward the phrase, and truthisfree stated that the evidence that such a claim was made could be found on the Fianna Fáil website. I'm not sure why you feel the need to comment if you don't actually follow the discussion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

http://www.fiannafail.ie/lisbon/entry/yes-to-lisbon-and-economic-recovery-lenihan/

ES TO LISBON AND ECONOMIC RECOVERY - LENIHAN
Posted on 28/09/09 by Fianna Fáil


On Friday the people will make a fundamental decision about the future of this country. On the ballot paper will be a clear choice between Ireland moving forward in partnership with a reformed European Union or taking a new and uncertain route.



During this campaign Fianna Fáil has worked to show why Europe matters to Ireland and why it matters that we vote yes to the Lisbon Treaty. In relation to the economy nobody has seriously challenged the basic point that Europe provides an essential foundation for recovery. Indeed, senior figures from Irish commercial life have actively campaigned for a yes vote. Those who head up our largest companies have called for a yes vote. A survey of over 300 chief executives which together employ thousands of people shows that 91% of them believe a Yes vote is important for recovery.

The IDA, the organisation which is responsible for attracting industry form abroad to provide jobs for our people have said a yes vote is essential if we are to continue to attract those jobs. A yes vote is in fact the consensus view among those who are at the coalface of enterprise and job creation in this country.





I note form the weekend newspapers that one of the main backers of Mr Declan Ganly, who has lately take up the cudgels against Lisbon again, is a London based hedge fund which could hardly be described as being interested in the economic well being of this country.



Let me summarise the economic case for a yes vote: A Yes vote will support confidence in Ireland as a place to invest. It will protect Ireland's influence in Europe. It will make the European Union more effective in assisting economic growth here and throughout Europe.



A No vote will damage investor confidence in the future direction of Ireland. WE are borrowing €400 million a week to run this country. The Chief executive of the NTMA, Dr Michael Somers whose job it is to get that money has confirmed that we got a very negative reaction to the not vote on the last occasion. And he has said a no vote on this occasion would result in an increase in the cost of our borrowing. As I said last week, the markets from which we borrow will not understand why we are voting against our own economic interest and this will undoubtedly result in a loss of investor confidence.

It is clear that a No vote will see Ireland move away from the core group of nations which can influence decisions within the Union. A Yes will put us at the heart of Europe at this crucial time as we build a path to economic recovery. In the daily work of the Union, Ireland has long punched above its weight because other member states know we want Europe to work and move forward. Even when we disagree with others they know we're on the same side. To stand against a reform Treaty which all other countries want even after we have received comprehensive legal guarantees on our key issues would be seen as an explicit move by Ireland to the sidelines of Europe.





The reform which is at the centre of the Lisbon Treaty is essential if the Union is to deal effectively with the global economic and financial crisis. A No vote will result in a Union that has its hands tied in dealing with challenges faced by all members - while a Yes vote will lead to a Union that is more dynamic and effective on our behalf. Many of the Union's key rules are from a former era when an iron curtain divided Europe. There was no internet and global trade was a fraction of what it is today. The limitations of the existing structures and the need for reform has been made clear during the crisis. For example, it has benefited no one that the Presidency of the Council has changed five times since the start of last year. When Europe works better it works better for Ireland.





In the face of the overwhelming support of those with a direct interest in job creation and economic recovery the No arguments have been reduced to saying "there's nothing in the Treaty about jobs". This is nonsense. Economic growth and full employment are set out as explicit objectives of the Union and the core purpose of the reforms contained in the Treaty is to help Europe to compete in the modern economy.



The period of recovery and growth which began in the late 1980s emerged from a combination of domestic reform and European reform. When we went to the polls to vote on the Single European Act in 1987 we were engaged in major adjustments at home and presented with a major reform to the procedures and policies of Union. The Irish people voted Yes to Europe then and this decision was a vital part of our regeneration. The opponents of Europe told us then that the Treaty would do nothing for our economy but hundreds of thousands of jobs were created by that Yes vote.


We listened to the positive and negative arguments and chose to take the European road to recovery. The same choice faces us on Friday.



The contribution of Europe to Ireland is unequalled and the arguments to supporting its reform through the Lisbon Treaty are compelling. For those who are concerned with sustainable economic recovery a Yes on Friday is
essential


http://www.pr-inside.com/acceptance-of-lisbon-treaty-will-aid-r1487299.htm

Acceptance Of Lisbon Treaty Will Aid Irish Economic Recovery Says Killeen
Print article
Refer to a friend

2009-09-17 21:20:59 - Junior Minister and Clare Deputy Tony Killeen has said that Ireland's acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty in the upcoming Referendum would greatly assist Irish economic recovery and ensure that the country remained at the centre of Europe.


Minister of State Killeen noted that the scale of the current economic challenges could only be tackled by countries working more closely together.

He continued: "We need an efficient and reformed EU to help us. Europe has listened to the Irish people and has given new guarantees on all of the main issues from last year. The Treaty is subject to

these legal guarantees. Bearing in mind that in over 50 years the EU has fully honoured every one of many similar guarantees, we can be sure that voting Yes to Lisbon is a vote for economic recovery in both Ireland and Europe. No is the vote for Ireland taking a step away in a new and more uncertain direction".

Commenting on the legal guarantees received from the EU in June, Minister of State Killeen pointed out: "Voting Yes will ensure Ireland retains its Commissioner. A No vote will mean current rules remain, which means the loss of automatic Commission membership immediately. In 2008, 80% of people were concerned about this issue. It has now been addressed."

"Voting Yes will enhance Ireland's ability to attract investment. The people who invest in Ireland and support hundred of thousands of jobs say that confidence in our position as a Euro-positive country matters a lot for them. Only a Yes will help maintain confidence at this difficult time. Voting Yes is also good for workers and social protection. The Treaty is based on the idea of enabling both growth and social protection, building on the Union's role as the great protection of workers and consumers", he added.

Minister of State Killeen said that Ireland needed a reformed EU to tackle the economic crisis. "A Union frozen in the past is of no use to anyone, but a Union that is more dynamic and effective is essential for our future. A more efficient EU is to our benefit. We also need to send a strong signal to our EU partners and to international investors that we are a fully engaged EU country. Ratifying Lisbon will send this vital signal", he concluded.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/lisbon-treaty-campaign-yes-jobs

Yes for the Economy

Helping member states to grow and create jobs has been a core part of the European Union’s work throughout its existence.

An integral part of this has been the fact that the EU has worked hard to reform and develop. Ireland has always been to the fore in both supporting reform and benefitting from it.

Investment, growth and job creation for Ireland are not possible without membership of a dynamic EU.

Ireland needs a reformed EU to tackle the Economic Crisis:

• Many of the biggest problems in this crisis are too big for countries to tackle alone - the last year has shown the need for an EU which can act faster and more effectively on our behalf.
• Lisbon will ensure that the EU is able to act on vital economic areas such as financial regulation, energy security and support for innovation.

Voting Yes will enhance Ireland’s ability to attract investment:

• Ireland’s attractiveness as a destination for Foreign Direct Investment stems directly form its positive approach to EU membership, which offers a secure gateway to a market of 500 million people.
• By dispelling any uncertainty about its status in Europe, Ireland will enhance its attractiveness as a destination for Foreign Direct Investment.
• At a time when competition for foreign investment is very strong, Ireland needs to show that it is fully committed to supporting a dynamic European market.

Voting Yes will help Ireland become an Innovation Hub:

• Ireland’s bid to become a centre for innovation will be greatly enhanced by voting Yes to Lisbon.
• The Lisbon Treaty pushes the EU forward in its support for high quality research and development projects.
• This will improve Ireland’s competitiveness and drive employment as Ireland strives to become a knowledge-based economy.

Voting Yes will create more trade opportunities for Ireland:

• The Lisbon Treaty will make the EU more coherent thereby strengthening its hand in external trade negotiations.
• Ireland will reap the benefits of being part of a more influential and better functioning power bloc.
• The Lisbon Treaty will improve development policies in non-EU countries. This will facilitate the opening up of more markets for EU and Irish goods.

Voting Yes will help energy security:

• The Lisbon Treaty recognises the importance of energy security and the benefits that this can bring.
• In improving its energy sources, the EU and Ireland can create cleaner, cheaper energy and create green jobs.

Voting Yes will help combat Climate Change:

• The Lisbon Treaty is the first Treaty to refer to climate change as part of the Union’s competence on environmental issues. This reference was included at the request of the Irish government and it gives the Union a specific basis for promoting environmental action against climate change.
• The fight against Climate Change is best tackled by the full strength of the EU rather than states acting alone.

Voting Yes is good for small states like Ireland:

• Provisions in the new “double majority” voting system will be weighted in favour of countries with smaller populations.
• There are also safeguards in place to prevent larger member states pushing through decisions.



if you can be bothered reading all of that or even searching with google yourself you will find plenty of references to Europe helping us financially

Thats a lovely long post with links to people stating the obvious ie that Europe is good for us ,has been and will continue to be and even more so if we endorsed it's programme for effeciency.

But where does it say in that,that overnight aerlingus would become profitable as a result of the last ballot being counted or any other airline in Europe for that matter?
That proposition as I said earlier I'll repeat is nonsense that sadly coming from the op makes me discount anything else posted here on other topics by the op,it's so silly and petulant in the sour grapes sense to be honest.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

meglome

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You mean that Joe Higgins wasn't telling the truth, I for one am totally shocked.

brianthebard

Scofflaw wrote: »

bonkey put forward the phrase, and truthisfree stated that the evidence that such a claim was made could be found on the Fianna Fáil website. I'm not sure why you feel the need to comment if you don't actually follow the discussion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

That in no way goes against what I said, which was that there was no direct quote. I'm not sure why you felt the need to comment when you didn't follow the discussion.

cordially,
Scoffbard.

Sam Vimes

brianthebard wrote: »

That in no way goes against what I said, which was that there was no direct quote. I'm not sure why you felt the need to comment when you didn't follow the discussion.

cordially,
Scoffbard.

But the quoted article didn't give the requested claim, direct quote or otherwise

edit: btw would you mind editing your first post, specifically the claim that "They delayed this information to prevent it impacting the referendum" since it has become clear that they didn't

brianthebard

The only person who made the claim was bonkey, which was not a direct quote. So the article could not give a claim that was written after the article. Truthisfree pointed out that this was what Yes to Jobs was supposed to mean as a campaign slogan.

donegalfella

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't think he is arguing that at all actually as he's put up no argument for it and can't as it's ridiculous.
All I'm see'ing is an initial statement and petulant rants every now and again totally ignoring the demolishment of of any breath of logic in the op's statement.
The debate end of this thread appears to have died long ago.

Scofflaw

brianthebard wrote: »

The only person who made the claim was bonkey, which was not a direct quote. So the article could not give a claim that was written after the article. Truthisfree pointed out that this was what Yes to Jobs was supposed to mean as a campaign slogan.

Which wasn't what the discussion was about at that point.

patiently,
Scofflaw

Sam Vimes

brianthebard wrote: »

The only person who made the claim was bonkey, which was not a direct quote. So the article could not give a claim that was written after the article. Truthisfree pointed out that this was what Yes to Jobs was supposed to mean as a campaign slogan.

This is how it went:

truthisfree wrote: »

Agreed and herein lies the main problem with the Yes voters, they think incorrectly that the EU will step in and aid us financially.

bonkey wrote: »

Where have yes voters argued this?

Its a genuine question, because the only places I've seen this "EU will step in and aid us" line is from No voters saying its what the Yes voters think...and in responses from Yes voters saying "No, that's not it at all".

Maybe this was in the Irish media somewhere? Living abroad, I wouldn't have seen that.

kryogen wrote: »

<A series of articles that did not actually show yes voters arguing this>

Why do you keep talking about a direct quote? Of course there isn't a direct quote, no one ever asked for a direct quote, bonkey asked for example of yes voters arguing that the EU will step in and aid us financially and kryogen provided articles that did not show them arguing that. I'm lost

brianthebard

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which wasn't what the discussion was about at that point.

patiently,
Scofflaw

The discussion has advanced from that point. So why did you question if I was following it or not?

Cordially,
Scoffbard.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

This is how it went:



Why do you keep talking about a direct quote? Of course there isn't a direct quote, no one ever asked for a direct quote, bonkey asked for example of yes voters arguing that the EU will step in and aid us financially and kryogen provided articles that did not show them arguing that. I'm lost

Nobody said that the yes campaign explicitly said the EU will now hand us money if we vote yes, truth said that the yes campaign insisted throughout the campaign that yes to lisbon meant yes to jobs which meant in the end money. If you are lost it is only because you refuse to accept that this is what the Yes side offered as the main or sole reason to vote yes.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sam Vimes

brianthebard wrote: »

Nobody said that the yes campaign explicitly said the EU will now hand us money if we vote yes, truth said that the yes campaign insisted throughout the campaign that yes to lisbon meant yes to jobs which meant in the end money.
If you are lost it is only because you refuse to accept that this is what the Yes side offered as the main or sole reason to vote yes.

Yes they did conflate Lisbon and jobs but through increased investor confidence, a more efficient and dynamic EU and through the removal of uncertainty about Ireland's approach to the EU and any perception that Ireland has different goals to the rest of the EU etc etc, not as truthisfree suggested, through the EU stepping in and financially aiding us.

Sam Vimes

brianthebard, you might have missed this earlier because I edited it in:

would you mind editing your first post, specifically the claim that "They delayed this information to prevent it impacting the referendum" since it has become clear that they didn't

Permabear

This post has been deleted.