Poll: If the Greens resign from the government now and force an election, can they...

seamus

magicbastarder wrote: »

are you suggesting that the deadline is more important than making progress?

Well it is in a way. If they tell their members, "We'll have an agreement you can vote on by 2 o'clock or we'll pull out of government", then their members expect that. If they arrive out with an agreement at 10pm tonight and rush to get it ready for their members tomorrow, some members may vote against it out of sheer annoyance.

magicbastarder

if you seriously thought, expected, or would endorse the notion that the greens should pull out at two o'clock, if progress was being made, i'd question your sanity.

Macha

spadder wrote: »

Could you give us a breakdown of this? If your talking about the SEI insulation grant scheme, talk to any contractor, he will tell you it's a joke

Are you talking about the Home Energy Savings Scheme that covers insulation, heating control upgrades and the installation of high efficiency gas- or oil-fired boilers with grants available from €250-€4,000? I don't really see what their problem could be unless they aren't on the preferred supplier list.

As for the 10,000 job breakdown, first you need to decide on the definition of a green job. The generally accepted view is that there are direct jobs (eg O&M personnel for wind turbines) and then indirect jobs (eg employees of companies that produce components). Both are considered green jobs. I can give you the following:

16/04 - 3,700 green jobs announcement by ESB
13/05 - €13m green waste fund announced, no specifics of job creation offered.
15/05 - 250 jobs announced by C&F, Athenry for manufacturing of wind turbines
18/05 - 100 jobs announced by Moffett, for wind energy
19/05 - 180 jobs announced by Biospark, Claremorris for bio-processing
03/06 - 150 jobs announced by Galetech Energy for wind farms
16/06 - 25 jobs announced by Wetzel
03/07 - 200 jobs announced by Airtricity
21/07 - 350 jobs announced in a smart telecoms firm
22/07 - 300 jobs announced by Bord na Mona
10/08 - 35 jobs announced in smart IT firm in Galway
15/09 - 100 jobs announced by ABB for Ireland-Wales interconnector.

SAP announced 100 new jobs and Siemens announced 60 jobs. Both companies are heavily involved in smart grid technology.

That's 5570 there and that's just the ones I can remember, plus these are just the direct jobs. There were also job announcements by companies like Microsoft that will be working on relevant technology like databases, crucial for the implementation of smart-grid technology. And then there are the construction-sector jobs created or supplemented by the SEI grants.

paconnors

there the ones holdin the trump card.

murfie

This all appears to be a show, make it appear greens are negotiating the best deal.

hobochris

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you seriously thought, expected, or would endorse the notion that the greens should pull out at two o'clock, if progress was being made, i'd question your sanity.

And why is that? By doing so the greens show integrity and FF given the time frame they have had already show that they are attempting to pervert the process. And who's definition of progress are we going by?

To me it shows that FF's only real interest in keeping its word is to hang onto power for as long as possible, its a good yardstick of what the word of the FF party is worth in my book.

seamus

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you seriously thought, expected, or would endorse the notion that the greens should pull out at two o'clock, if progress was being made, i'd question your sanity.

If progress was being made perhaps, but for the last three days, all we've heard them say is

While Green Party sources have been stressing that the talks are at a 'difficult' stage, Fianna Fáil appears confident that a deal will be reached.

And they're still saying it, after 2 o'clock. Which indicates to me that progress is in fact, not being made.
As another poster said, the Greens are holding all the cards on this one. It's a bit ridiculous to publically declare a deadline on talks if you're not actually going to stick to it.

Why not come out at 2 o'clock and say, "We are making progress now and are confident that we will have an agreement by the end of the day". Because at this point they already know whether or not they'll have an agreement by the end of the day.

Biggins

murfie wrote: »

This all appears to be a show, make it appear greens are negotiating the best deal.

Have to agree. The more we/the media bang on about them able to threaten the Gov', the more their hand is stronger.

bauderline

Dermot Ahern is one of the negotiators... I am sure he is doing a great job of breaking balls... which is likely one reason for the lack of progress... there is hope yet for a government collapse...

However if Cowen trotts in later he will likely capitulate enough to keep the whole ****ty show on the road...

magicbastarder

i'm a bit bemused that people suspect that the greens are trying to make it look as if they're trying to get the best deal.

maybe it's simply because they're, eh, trying to get the best deal.

Darragh29

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm a bit bemused that people suspect that the greens are trying to make it look as if they're trying to get the best deal.

maybe it's simply because they're, eh, trying to get the best deal.

The best deal involves removing the Fianna Fail orangatangs that are running the country at the moment while there is still a job left in the country...

Sizzler

Why wait till the last minute FFS, they knew they had Biffo & Co. on the wrack for MONTHS now. Gormley and Ryan have been talking about the programme for govt for an age, simple stuff, give Biffo your list of demands and go and grab a green tea lads. If he says no its over, simple. Why wait for today?This was an agenda item for sometime.

You can see it already, Greens will get a few concessions but will never reveal the extent of what they really wanted and will come out of it claiming it as some sort of remarkable victory for the party :rolleyes:

If that happens, I hope its members are wide to it and bury them tomorrow.

Euro_Kraut

The fact that the leaders are meeting suggests a deal is on the table.

Its a big call for the Green leadership. If they present a deal to their member and it voted down tomorrow they will be in a very weak position internally.

The deadline was never going to be met. I get the feeling that Cuffe was referring to the deal between the negotiating teams rather than the deal between the leaders. That part does now appear to be complete.

bijapos

Party members aren't supposed to get the programme until tomorrow at 10 a.m. anyway so it doesn't really matter how long the talks go on for. Could go on till 6 in the morning so long as they have a couple of hours to print the whole thing out. People might be better off asking FF what their bloody problem is and why they don't agree to the demands which are probably for the better of the country whatever they are. Didn't expect any announcement this lunch time and wouldn't be surprised if it goes on fairly late. Like I said so long as its there at 10 tomorrow morning it doesn't really matter.

Dampsquid

From http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-have-air-of-unreality-at-programme-for-government-talks-429583.html

The country is on the brink of a snap General Election today as negotiations between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party for a new Programme for Government falter.

Green Party Ministers are believed to be on the verge of withdrawing from Government as both parties struggle to conclude difficult negotiations on a new programme.

It is currently looking unlikely that agreement can be reached.

Education and the reform of politician’s expenses are thought to be the main stumbling blocks.

Cork Senator and Green Party chairman Dan Boyle, a member of the Green negotiating team, today said that if agreement was not reached by mid-afternoon, the Green Party ministers were seriously considering pulling out of Government.

Senator Boyle said the talks had become frustrating.

“There’s an air of unreality on the part of the Fianna Fáil team in terms of what they can and can’t do, and what being in Government is going to be like for them for the next two or three years,” he said.

He said that both sides were aware that should the talks collapse, it would lead to a disastrous General Election for both parties.

Meetings of the Green Party parliamentary party meeting and the National Executive Council of the party were going on today. Party leader John Gormley was also expected to meet with Taoiseach Brian Cowen over the course of the day.

About 700 Green Party members were due to meet in Dublin’s RDS tomorrow to vote on the new Programme for Government, and the Nama legislation.

Senator Boyle said he would be confident that the party members would support a new Programme for Government, but added that securing a programme to put before members was looking uncertain this morning.

Green Party members around the country have been told not to make any definite travel arrangements for the time being, indicating the meeting may not go ahead, or could become an election rally.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-have-air-of-unreality-at-programme-for-government-talks-429583.html#ixzz0TSHTrMTR

Biggins

One bunch of Greens is saying one thing and another is saying different?
Do they even talk to each other?

AARRRGH

Oh man PLEASE PLEASE LET THE GOVERNMENT COLLAPSE!!!

Hydrosylator

I think they'd get maybe a small kickback in a general election if they bring down the government. More in preferences than 1sts, perhaps.

Will they go the way of the PD's? I don't think so.
Say what you like about the current Green TD's (I know I do), but there's a lot of disenfranchised members there at the party level.

The essential difference between Greens and PDs is that there are genuine members of the Green party who actually believe in something. You don't see them in the Dáil, but they're there.

We'll find out tomorrow if there's a silent majority in the Greens who won't stand for this ****. I hope there is.

hatrickpatrick

^ Well that's another issue for debate I suppose - while I certainly deplore the current government, would political instability at a time like this be a good thing, just when the first signs of recovery are starting to be forecast?

Anyway with regard to the "stumbling blocks", on the education front I dearly hope the idea of bringing back fees is being opposed by the Greens...

Tricity Bendix

If the Greens pulled out of government because of NAMA I'd respect them a lot. If they're pulling out because government policy is to have a pupil/teacher ratio of 28/1 instead of 27/1 I will not respect them.

Tricity Bendix

Hydrosylator wrote: »

The essential difference between Greens and PDs is that there are genuine members of the Green party who actually believe in something. You don't see them in the Dáil, but they're there.

OT: PDs and PD members were genuine believers. You might not have liked what they believed in, but you're wrong if you think they were ideologically vapid.

maynooth_rules

Well i voted Green (Mary White) in the last election, i can guarantee i will never vote Green again.

spadder

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Well i voted Green (Mary White) in the last election, i can guarantee i will never vote Green again.

Me too, crack cocaine and a belief in the greens led me to do it.

Macha

spadder wrote: »

Me too, crack cocaine and a belief in the greens led me to do it.

Are you going to respond to my post on the green economy or are you going to ignore the facts and keep repeating your anti-Green Party mantra?

bauderline

Well I guess we will know about the first part in the wee small hours of Saturday morning... if they manage agreement it will make for a very interesting session tomorrow... my guess is that it will be a very close vote, too close to call, there are a lot of dissenting party members at the moment...

I would be VERY surprised if the Greens & FF don't come to some sort of agreement at the last minute...

johnnyskeleton

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Cuffe has said today may be the deadline for their participation. What do ye voters think?

Deadlines are about as sacred as referenda in Irish politics.

bauderline

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Deadlines are about as sacred as referenda in Irish politics.

Well... I guess if you believe you can achieve a worthwhile objective its worth extending a deadline or holding another referendum for that matter....

johnnyskeleton

taconnol wrote: »

This is incorrect. Over 10,000 green jobs have been created in 2009 alone. The green economy was valued at €2.6n in 2007 (not including construction - a huge part) with over 6,000 direct green jobs (not including indirect jobs).

What are green jobs, which jobs are these 10,000 and did the green party actually have a hand in it? Are they profitable businesses as going concerns?

Judgement Day

SeanW wrote: »

If the Greens were to pull this shambolic government down before they have a chance to bail out every banker and politically connected property developer, I would consider that an act of courage and integrity.

In short, I would see fit to vote for a Green candidate very soon, if not in the election they cause, then perhaps the one after that.

If they choose to stay in government and allow the wealth of generations to be stolen to pay for developer payoffs, all so that they can vaccinate badger, ban fur trading and sabotage the roads programme ... they can forget about getting a vote from me EVER!

SeanW - It is rare that I find myself in agreement with you but I cannot fault your posting. I have always given the Greens my first preference wherever possible regardless of the candidate but NO more - that is unless they earn my vote by putting this awful government out of office!

Hydrosylator

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

OT: PDs and PD members were genuine believers. You might not have liked what they believed in, but you're wrong if you think they were ideologically vapid.

Right, well I'll give you that. They might as well be objectivists as far as I'm concerned.