Just how deluded is Bertie ?

whynotwhycanti

he has basically bankrupted the country, yeah what a fantastic job he did. He has driven foreign investment out of the country due to the cost of labour which was inflated under his policies. Pharmaceutical and generally all manufacturing which was the backbone of the celtic tiger is now dead in Ireland due to them putting all our eggs into the property bubble which increased the price of everything in this country and turned it into rip off ireland.

The infrastructure is at best average. Two unconnected luas lines, motorways only being completed by next year, the m50 (beyond a joke at this stage), all over budget and behnd schedule. Go abroad, you will see motorways connecting major cities, an efficient public transport system, these are all standard and we're only getting a glimpse of them now and we should be impressed. The guy is a joke, he did a terrible job, so so bad it is unbelieveable. I mean, as i said, the country is bankrupt, it will take us years to get out of this and that is meant to be the result of him doing a good job. If i ever see this man on the street i'd be tempted to go and smack him. Utter absolute scumbag of the highest order

dragonsgates

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Thank you for your constructive input . .

LOL . . no it isn't. It's because there are bigger, wider, better roads and less roundabouts and traffic lights . .

Not constructive just fact.


bigger, wider, better roads and less roundabouts and traffic lights

and soon they will sit empty.....

hallelujajordan

turgon wrote: »

Well there could be more of these bigger roads and less roundabouts if Bertie had properly managed the country.

It was the Celtic Tiger - any kind of government was bound to build some quantity of infrastructure.

This is the argument that I find so difficult. When you acknowledge any of the governments achievements during the boom years you get this response . . "sure anyone could have done it" it was all a result of external factors . . . but yet the same people insist on holding the government specifically and individually responsible for anything that has gone wrong since then ! Why is that?

alfranken

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is the argument that I find so difficult. When you acknowledge any of the governments achievements during the boom years you get this response . . "sure anyone could have done it" it was all a result of external factors . . . but yet the same people insist on holding the government specifically and individually responsible for anything that has gone wrong since then ! Why is that?

Lack of management and foresight!

sceptre

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is the argument that I find so difficult. When you acknowledge any of the governments achievements during the boom years you get this response . . "sure anyone could have done it" it was all a result of external factors . . . but yet the same people insist on holding the government specifically and individually responsible for anything that has gone wrong since then ! Why is that?

I suspect somehow it's because the current elected government tend to imply that they were responsible for the Irish boom but some other unnamed guys in a big skyscraper somewhere are responsible for the Irish bust.

Realistically though it's because regardless of who or what was responsible for the boom, it did exist for a while and there's a chunk of people who reckon that the extra tax revenue was wasted and blown on items as useful as cat flaps in elephant houses with very little or no forward planning. Even in a boom, only an idiot believes the bubble will last forever. Unfortunately our current leaders have been quite good at saying they were going to do something eventually to calm down the economy but didn't do so on time and aren't al that clear about what they'd have done in this plan that they only mentioned after the burst bubble. Not exactly confidence-inspiring but that's hardly news.

MysticalRain

I watched the interview yesterday. It makes me ashamed to be Irish knowing that so many of my fellow countrymen voted this idiot and his party into power. "Man of the people" my arse.

deadhead13

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is the argument that I find so difficult. When you acknowledge any of the governments achievements during the boom years you get this response . . "sure anyone could have done it" it was all a result of external factors . . . but yet the same people insist on holding the government specifically and individually responsible for anything that has gone wrong since then ! Why is that?

All countries have been affected by the global recession. But none have been in an unqiuely difficult position in dealing with it as Ireland. The ERSI forecasts that the Irish economy will contract by around 14% from 2008 to 2010. This is the largest decline for any industrialised country since the 1930's. Which would more than suggest that our economy was mismanaged in those boom years.

And lets not forget, Bertie Ahern left office in disgrace, The medias coverage of Ahern is in a degree of limbo because the Mahon tribunal has yet to issue its findings. Barring anymore delays it should be out next spring. And I then expect the legs will be kicked from under Bertie's Presidential bid and the there be a marked difference in how the media as a whole will deal with him.

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes I have. . I commute from Celbridge to Leopardstown and back every day.

Time spent in car in 2001 = roughly 3 hours per day
Time spent in car in 2010 = roughly 65 minutes per day

I also use public transport quite a bit; in fact last week i got from Hazelhatch to O'Connell Bridge on a single Luas / Irish Rail ticket in about 23 minutes. In 1998 I was doing this trip by bus and it was taking well over an hour !

Sorry I only live in 2009, maybe if you joined us in 2009 you mightn't have such a rosey attitude towards bertie sleveen.

If you ever drive in Spain or Portugal, take a look at some of their new motorways, often built through far more demanding terrain and yet managed to come in at a much lower expense than ours.
Oh yes the cost of living was more here, but why was there never penalties imposed or why were costs allowed creep ever higher ?
Why were the projects half planned and not future proofed ?
Ah but sure wasn't there a jobs for the boys body (sorry a quango) in charge of the projects :rolleyes:

I believe in a little thing called value for money and I would bet that most of the fine infrastructure advances you are lauding skip that little criteria.
Actually it is much like how government ministers and top civil servants all threw that little criteria out the window during the reign of bertie. :rolleyes:
Care to remember bertie bowl, e-voting, ppars, new prison site ?

BTW leaving out NI and the infrastructure that cost the earth and still isn't proper what other great things did bertie leave us with ?

bertie's real legacy is he helped create an overstaffed overpaid public service, a state where neither politicans, top line civil servants or regulatory authorities are trusted to act in the interest of the state rather than their own.
bertie promoted the incompetent and the CORRUPT.
Remember ray burke. :rolleyes:

Part of bertie's legacy was to turn a thriving exporting economy into one based on selling houses to each other at astromically high prices using cheap credit, all facilitated by a cosy relationship between developers, banks, government and regulatory authorities.

drBill

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry I only live in 2009, maybe if you joined us in 2009 you mightn't have such a rosey attitude towards bertie sleveen.

If you ever drive in Spain or Portugal, take a look at some of their new motorways, often built through far more demanding terrain and yet managed to come in at a much lower expense than ours.
Oh yes the cost of living was more here, but why was there never penalties imposed or why were costs allowed creep ever higher ?
Why were the projects half planned and not future proofed ?
Ah but sure wasn't there a jobs for the boys body (sorry a quango) in charge of the projects :rolleyes:

I believe in a little thing called value for money and I would bet that most of the fine infrastructure advances you are lauding skip that little criteria.
Actually it is much like how government ministers and top civil servants all threw that little criteria out the window during the reign of bertie. :rolleyes:
Care to remember bertie bowl, e-voting, ppars, new prison site ?

BTW leaving out NI and the infrastructure that cost the earth and still isn't proper what other great things did bertie leave us with ?

bertie's real legacy is he helped create an overstaffed overpaid public service, a state where neither politicans, top line civil servants or regulatory authorities are trusted to act in the interest of the state rather than their own.
bertie promoted the incompetent and the CORRUPT.
Remember ray burke. :rolleyes:

Part of bertie's legacy was to turn a thriving exporting economy into one based on selling houses to each other at astromically high prices using cheap credit, all facilitated by a cosy relationship between developers, banks, government and regulatory authorities.

And returned Beverley Flynn to us, plus a few more really useful junior ministers before he left the building. How thoughtful!

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry I only live in 2009, maybe if you joined us in 2009 you mightn't have such a rosey attitude towards bertie sleveen.

LOL . . am getting ahead of myself

If you ever drive in Spain or Portugal, take a look at some of their new motorways, often built through far more demanding terrain and yet managed to come in at a much lower expense than ours.
Oh yes the cost of living was more here, but why was there never penalties imposed or why were costs allowed creep ever higher ?
Why were the projects half planned and not future proofed ?
Ah but sure wasn't there a jobs for the boys body (sorry a quango) in charge of the projects :rolleyes:

I believe in a little thing called value for money and I would bet that most of the fine infrastructure advances you are lauding skip that little criteria.
Actually it is much like how government ministers and top civil servants all threw that little criteria out the window during the reign of bertie. :rolleyes:
Care to remember bertie bowl, e-voting, ppars, new prison site ?

I agree . . there were huge overruns as the cost of construction rose at a fierce pace during the boom years and the government should have controlled this better. Bertie Ahern accepted responsibility for this during his LLS interview on Friday night.

BTW leaving out NI and the infrastructure that cost the earth and still isn't proper what other great things did bertie leave us with ?

How can you seriously talk about Bertie Ahern's legacy and 'leave out' NI ?

deadhead13

Sorry Hallelujajordan, but I have to ask. Your defence of Bertie across these threads seems above and beyond the call of duty, verging on propaganda - are you in anyway connected to the man?

hallelujajordan

deadhead13 wrote: »

Sorry Hallelujajordan, but I have to ask. Your defence of Bertie across these threads seems above and beyond the call of duty, verging on propaganda - are you in anyway connected to the man?

Yep, I'm the secret love child of Bertie Ahern and Mary O Rourke but please, don't tell anyone . .

Seriously, I have no connection to Bertie Ahern and have never met the man.
I am a FF member and voter however.

I have across the boards criticised Bertie in various areas. I think that the FF coalition governments achieved a great deal over the boom years but I do believe they could have achieved more (and have said so). I think they should have worked harder to control the rate of growth within the economy but honestly, I think the people of Ireland need to take as much responsibility for this uncontrolled growth.

I defend Bertie on here because I think it is too easy to focus all of the blame for where we are on one man. Remember, at the time the country gave him a repeated vote of confidence at the ballot box. I think it is unfair to simply dismiss everything that he and the previous governments have achieved out of hand.

I also defend him because, lets face it, its a little bit boring reading you all posting the same expletives about him over and over and over . . .

Seth Brundle

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yep, I'm the secret love child of Bertie Ahern and Mary O Rourke but please, don't tell anyone . .

No need to tell anyone - ots coming through in your posts

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I am a FF member and voter however.

An aspiring member maybe?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I think the people of Ireland need to take as much responsibility for this uncontrolled growth.

why was it uncontrolled? Whose watch was it uncontrolled on?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I defend Bertie on here because I think it is too easy to focus all of the blame for where we are on one man.

Wasn't he the leader?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Remember, at the time the country gave him a repeated vote of confidence at the ballot box. I think it is unfair to simply dismiss everything that he and the previous governments have achieved out of hand.

I'll repeat myself - did he stand in more than one constituency? I don't recall seeing him on my ballot paper!

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I also defend him because, lets face it, its a little bit boring reading you all posting the same expletives about him over and over and over . . .

hmmm, maybe people are angry with him for some reason?

deadhead13

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yep, I'm the secret love child of Bertie Ahern and Mary O Rourke but please, don't tell anyone . .

Seriously, I have no connection to Bertie Ahern and have never met the man.
I am a FF member and voter however.

I have across the boards criticised Bertie in various areas. I think that the FF coalition governments achieved a great deal over the boom years but I do believe they could have achieved more (and have said so). I think they should have worked harder to control the rate of growth within the economy but honestly, I think the people of Ireland need to take as much responsibility for this uncontrolled growth.

I defend Bertie on here because I think it is too easy to focus all of the blame for where we are on one man. Remember, at the time the country gave him a repeated vote of confidence at the ballot box. I think it is unfair to simply dismiss everything that he and the previous governments have achieved out of hand.

I also defend him because, lets face it, its a little bit boring reading you all posting the same expletives about him over and over and over . . .

I don't agree with you but ....fair enough.

hallelujajordan

kbannon wrote: »

An aspiring member maybe?

Already a member ? ?

why was it uncontrolled? Whose watch was it uncontrolled on?
Wasn't he the leader?

Bertie's watch; Yes he was the leader and yes he needs to take some responsibility. He does (and did, publicly on Friday night)

I'll repeat myself - did he stand in more than one constituency? I don't recall seeing him on my ballot paper!

You'd do better to read my earlier response than to repeat yourself. You are correct that you the country didn't return Bertie, but they returned the FF members (and some of the PD's) of the government that he led. This was by extension a vote of confidence in Bertie himself.

hmmm, maybe people are angry with him for some reason?

I can understand that . .

termcg

Halleujajordan a few questions for you:

Do you believe Bertie won all of that money on the horses?

Do you believe him or his secretary?

Can you explain why he does not have a tax clearence cert and yet draws his salary and pension despite a tax clearence cert being a legal requirement for this?

Tax breaks are used to direct funding into an emerging market or industry that needs investment ala wind 10 years ago. Do you think it was appropiate for the construction tax breaks to contunie budget after budget in a bouyant construction industry?

Do you think it was correct to grant immunity to criminal peadophiles from our states courts?

Do you think the Bailey brothers who are proven tax cheats should be swanning around. Can you explain why no prosecution have taken place against them?

Can you explain why the decrentralisation programme did not alight with the spacial strategy which was published a year before hand?

Can you explain why the HSE did not result in any economies of scale?

Can you explain why when Bert was defending his proposed way increase while still in office he claimed to have not taken the increase while infact he and all the other ministers did. What they infact did was instruct the accounts department to increase there salary as planned but defer the additional payment. This means their pension lump sum and % is based off the higher amount. Nice one that:-)

Can you explain how during the last election when the people spoke and said that no longer wanted the PDs in government by demolishing them there was no only no question of FF leaving them out of the party but also no question of them not having a ministry.

And finally please please explain how JOD needed a limo to take him across heathrow. If he doesnt want to mix with the serf he could take a taxi, but a €400 limo!?!?

I understand this is a lot of questions and it did take me a helluva lot of will power to stop there.

Seth Brundle

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Already a member ? ?

clarification: a member who aspires to greater things within the party?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Bertie's watch; Yes he was the leader and yes he needs to take some responsibility. He does (and did, publicly on Friday night)

Do you recal his recommendation for naysayers to kill themselves?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You'd do better to read my earlier response than to repeat yourself. You are correct that you the country didn't return Bertie, but they returned the FF members (and some of the PD's) of the government that he led. This was by extension a vote of confidence in Bertie himself.

Not necessarily. Many vote for the idiot who put the speedbumps up their road etc. but he may have been a factor

hallelujajordan

termcg wrote: »

Halleujajordan a few questions for you:

Do you believe Bertie won all of that money on the horses?

Do you believe him or his secretary?

Can you explain why he does not have a tax clearence cert and yet draws his salary and pension despite a tax clearence cert being a legal requirement for this?

Tax breaks are used to direct funding into an emerging market or industry that needs investment ala wind 10 years ago. Do you think it was appropiate for the construction tax breaks to contunie budget after budget in a bouyant construction industry?

Do you think it was correct to grant immunity to criminal peadophiles from our states courts?

Do you think the Bailey brothers who are proven tax cheats should be swanning around. Can you explain why no prosecution have taken place against them?

Can you explain why the decrentralisation programme did not alight with the spacial strategy which was published a year before hand?

Can you explain why the HSE did not result in any economies of scale?

Can you explain why when Bert was defending his proposed way increase while still in office he claimed to have not taken the increase while infact he and all the other ministers did. What they infact did was instruct the accounts department to increase there salary as planned but defer the additional payment. This means their pension lump sum and % is based off the higher amount. Nice one that:-)

Can you explain how during the last election when the people spoke and said that no longer wanted the PDs in government by demolishing them there was no only no question of FF leaving them out of the party but also no question of them not having a ministry.

And finally please please explain how JOD needed a limo to take him across heathrow. If he doesnt want to mix with the serf he could take a taxi, but a €400 limo!?!?

I understand this is a lot of questions and it did take me a helluva lot of will power to stop there.

I'm not going to answer these questions . . Not because I can't . . I can answer each one with my own opinion. In some cases I will defend Bertie, in others I believe he ought to be criticised, in some cases severely so. But the exercise will drag the thread way OT and I have neither the time or the energy for it.

Seth Brundle

Most of the questions were seeking your opinion!

hallelujajordan

kbannon wrote: »

clarification: a member who aspires to greater things within the party?

No, political office is not for me . . I don't have the time, energy, neck or work ethic and I can make way more money in the private sector.

Do you recal his recommendation for naysayers to kill themselves?

I do recall the comment that you are quoting out of context, and engaged in a separate debate here where I tried to provide that context. To summarise . .he didn't call for people to kill themselves; he joked about how "they were so negative he was surprised they didn't commit suicide" . He recognised how foolish a comment it was and apologised the same afternoon.

Not necessarily. Many vote for the idiot who put the speedbumps up their road etc. but he may have been a factor

In my experience, many people vote for two things in a GE. 1) Is the local Joe who they think will do most for them and their area 2) Is the leader of Joe's party, the proposed or likely Taoiseach. Precisely the reason why if FG replaced Kenny with Bruton in the morning they would stand an excellent chance of getting an overall majority.

hallelujajordan

kbannon wrote: »

Most of the questions were seeking your opinion!

Well, not really but that's beside the point . . I've no problem trying to answer questions with whatever knowledge I have or with my own opinions. . I'm just not willing to enter into a massive debate around all of these issues. . .

juuge

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm not going to answer these questions . . Not because I can't . . .

Now where did I hear that before ?

hallelujajordan

juuge wrote: »

Now where did I hear that before ?

Cheap shot !

Seth Brundle

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Well, not really but that's beside the point . . I've no problem trying to answer questions with whatever knowledge I have or with my own opinions. . I'm just not willing to enter into a massive debate around all of these issues. . .

but thats part of the whole problem. The FF Golden Child that is Bertie Ahern was unwilling to answer these also and the public are left wanting!

hallelujajordan

kbannon wrote: »

but thats part of the whole problem. The FF Golden Child that is Bertie Ahern was unwilling to answer these also and the public are left wanting!

Understood and Agreed . . . I'm not an apologist or a spokesperson for Bertie Ahern. I do believe that he ought to take responsibility for some of the current mess (and have said so) and I do believe he still has questions to answer, particularly about his personal finances.

Neither precludes me from being able to recognise that he achieved a great deal during his tenure as Taoiseach ! and I don't believe he deserves the outright vilification that he is getting on these boards..

imme

kbannon wrote: »

but thats part of the whole problem. The FF Golden Child that is Bertie Ahern was unwilling to answer these also and the public are left wanting!

Very true, the guy was the king of obfuscation. The merry dance he led the tribunal was disgusting. Some people think he's the cleverest Taoiseach ever.:mad:

Seth Brundle

imme wrote: »

Some people think he's the cleverest Taoiseach ever.:mad:

I have to say that I think he was clever. He was very shrewd at keeping his enemies close and happy.
However, the blinkered views of him that people have for me is sickening - an article in yesterdays Oirish Times about Bertie's book signing says this:

Some of those who queued for his autograph had travelled up to the capital especially for the occasion.
One woman after another whispered in his ear as he signed their copies, put an arm around him and smiled for the camera as their husbands took the photograph.
Others, who did not have time to queue for a signing stood beside a card board photo of Bertie on a table of books and had their photograph taken with that instead.
Gráinne O’Leary from Howth, in North Dublin, said she was Bertie’s biggest fan. The 17 year old queued with her grandfather to tell him so. “He’s a nice man, a people person,” she said, clutching her edition in which he had written
Marie Padden, also from Dublin, said: “I have a kind of passion for those sort of people that have a funny streak in them . . . of course, they’re all a shower of crooks, him included.”
Maurice Walsh had travelled from Waterford for the event and described himself as a life long member of Fianna Fáil. “Bertie was our greatest ever leader,” he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1012/1224256436481.html

termcg

Halleujajordan we can cut this down by responding to the points you dont agree with. That way it will take less time, we can take the other as an implicit agreement and the debate is focused.

Victor

walshb wrote: »

He said he would give an honset account.

First account linked to Bertie evar! :pac:

jmayo

drBill wrote: »

And returned Beverley Flynn to us, plus a few more really useful junior ministers before he left the building. How thoughtful!

Well after all daddy flynnsh*te probably knew where a fair few skeletons were buried :rolleyes:
It was always noticable how he never distanced himself from the flynns.
Even when there were major questions about her, he was down in Castlebar walking around the town with them pre election.
Disgusting sight :mad:

hallelujajordan wrote: »

No, political office is not for me . . I don't have the time, energy, neck or work ethic and I can make way more money in the private sector.

You wouldn't be a builder any any chance ?