New Programme for Government agreed

mikemac

Dampsquid wrote: »

How many of them have been achieved?

Very few if any
They will be slaughtered in 2012 or whenever the next election is.
Best to step away now and save themselves

I heard on the radio they need 66% of their rank and file member to support them tomorrow in order for them to carry on.

66% is a high number and the general members are probably far more aware of the general situation then their leaders.

Here's hoping their member will carry the day tomorrow!

Sand

@Taconnol
Do you really think the Greens can save the planet by 2012? That there wont be any need for a Green perspective or effective representation after that point?

I dont see why the Greens are so eager to ensure that this coalition is their first and probably last chance to effect policy for a generation. You're aligning yourself with a despised government, propping them up. If you think youll have no policy to effect after 2012, if you think that your policy will be sustained by other parties and wont require and continuing oversight after 2012, then grand.

But for a party that prides itself on taking such a long sighted view on so many issues, its ironic that such a short sighted mindset has taken hold with some.

If the Greens stay in, they will be buried. Wiped out. Cease to exist. Devolve to SWP status and influence. The PfG may be spoken of as the longest suicide note in Irish political history.

mikemac

Sand wrote: »

The PfG may be spoken of as the longest suicide note in Irish political history.

Who?

Biggins

mikemac wrote: »

Who?

Was wondering that myself!

Trotter

Programme for Government?

Biggins

Trotter wrote: »

Programme for Government?

DOH! Thanks. Me slow!

Macha

Sand wrote: »

@Taconnol
Do you really think the Greens can save the planet by 2012? That there wont be any need for a Green perspective or effective representation after that point?

I certainly don't think the planet is there to be saved in a few years and sustainable policies will have to feature strongly in any future government. But some posters on here seem to think that it's worth kicking out the Greens just to get back at...Fianna Fail. I call that cutting off your nose despite your face, especially if you take the time to really look at the environmental policies of Labour & FG...not promising.

Sand wrote: »

I dont see why the Greens are so eager to ensure that this coalition is their first and probably last chance to effect policy for a generation. You're aligning yourself with a despised government, propping them up. If you think youll have no policy to effect after 2012, if you think that your policy will be sustained by other parties and wont require and continuing oversight after 2012, then grand.

I'm afraid I can't control the electorate. And if they want to "punish" the Greens then go ahead but don't expect me to respect that sort of logic. What I know is that Eamon Ryan and John Gormley are the two best ministers in this government and many people from every party background agree on that.

The Greens will always be a minority party and will always have to compromise. If our membership can't handle that, then they need to go and take a class on Coalition 101 or go join FG.

Sand wrote: »

But for a party that prides itself on taking such a long sighted view on so many issues, its ironic that such a short sighted mindset has taken hold with some.

I don't see how staying in government to implement some decent bloody environmental policies as they have done over the last few years and most people on here seem willing to pretend never happened. Actually, let me help you with that collective touch of amnesia:

Just in September, when we were campaigning heavily for the Lisbon Treaty, opening new offices and working on the new Programme for Government:

30 Sep 09: Broadcast Authority of Ireland established: New body to regulate and uphold highest standards in broadcasting
28 Sep 09: €500million investment in Irish electricity sector: European Investment Bank helps secure Ireland’s green electricity supplies
27 Sep 09: Guantanamo prisoners arrive in Ireland: Greens welcome the arrival of two prisoners held at the camp, having worked with international human rights organisations to facilitate their resettlement
21 Sep 09: New post code system announced: Introduction will ensure accuracy of postal deliveries and help the emergency services
18 Sep 09: New environment standards for press industry: Magazine and newspaper publishers commit to improved recycling and recovery targets
11 Sep 09: Guidelines announced to prevent the over-zoning of land: New procedures in the Planning and Development Bill will result in improved city and county development plans
9 Sep 09: Fixed support prices introduced for new categories of renewable energy: Govt will pay fixed tariffs for CHP, biomass, wind energy and wave and tidal energy for 15 years
4 Sep 09: Backyard burning targeted in pollution clampdown: €3,000 fine for those who break the law

http://www.greenparty.ie/government/achievements_in_government/rolling_list_of_achievements

But you know, I hate Fianna Fail just as much as the next person and you know I actually WANT FF to stay in power to clean up their mess just ONCE. Last time, they messed it up and Labour/FG came in and sorted it all out and then what happened? They were relegated to opposition for 12 years. I have a genuine fear that it will happen again.

Sure, the Greens will take the hit but I think that the Greens are a party of principle and if it takes us a few years to get over the hit, so be it. The future of the green economy and sustainability of this country is more important.

Liam Byrne

taconnol wrote: »

I certainly don't think the planet is there to be saved in a few years and sustainable policies will have to feature strongly in any future government. But poster on here seem to think that it's worth kicking out the Greens just to get back at...Fianna Fail.

It's not about "getting back at FF"; it's about getting them OUT, before they do any more damage.

And by getting them out, the Greens might manage to get votes next time; but by staying in, they're history.

So the point being made (I think) is that staying in gives them only until 2012 (at most) whereas doing the right thing now would give them a chance to do more by surviving to fight another [election] day.

taconnol wrote: »

I call that cutting off your nose despite your face.

Weirdest phrase ever! Doesn't even make sense the way you said it. Do you even know what the correct phrase is supposed to mean ?

The phrase is "....to spite".

taconnol wrote: »

What I know is that Eamon Ryan and John Gormley are the two best ministers in this government and many people from every party background agree on that.

Incorrect. Eamonn Gilmore was the only one who stuck his neck out and did the right thing this week.

taconnol wrote: »

The Greens will always be a minority party and will always have to compromise. If our membership can't handle that, then they need to go and take a class on Coalition 101.

"Compromise" is the word used for small things. "Selling Out" is the word used for bigger issues, and it won't be forgotten.

There was once a party that jacked up FF in defence of the indefensible, and bottled it when it came to pulling the plug as scandal after scandal came to light.

That party was called the PDs.

Macha

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So the point being made (I think) is that staying in gives them only until 2012 (at most) whereas doing the right thing now would give them a chance to do more by surviving to fight another [election] day.

Personally, I hope the current government stays until, say, June. At that time NAMA will have been finalised, Lisbon will hopefully be finished and the UK general election will be over. I do not think that this is a good time for a general election. What is FG going to do? Reverse all the NAMA decisions and implement their version that, oh yeah, doesn't actually make economic sense?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Weirdest phrase ever! Doesn't even make sense the way you said it. Do you even know what the correct phrase is supposed to mean ?

I am tired and it was a typo. I'm embarrassed at how childish your comment is.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Incorrect. Eamonn Gilmore was the only one who stuck his neck out and did the right thing this week.

Hate to break it to you - Gilmore will never be Taoiseach.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Compromise" is the word used for small things. "Selling Out" is the word used for bigger issues, and it won't be forgotten.

Are you aware the Greens hold 6 seats?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There was once a party that jacked up FF in defence of the indefensible, and bottled it when it came to pulling the plug as scandal after scandal came to light. That party was called the PDs.

If you can't see the difference between the PDs and the Greens, well, I really don't know what to say.

Sand

I certainly don't think the planet is there to be saved in a few years and sustainable policies will have to feature strongly in any future government. But poster on here seem to think that it's worth kicking out the Greens just to get back at...Fianna Fail. I call that cutting off your nose despite your face.

I do too. I dont agree with the view that the Green Party ought to be the whipping boys for Fianna Fail. The Greens are one of the few (only?) surviving "ideas" parties in Ireland. They could learn a bit from the previous whipping boys for Fianna Fail, the PDs, also an "ideas" party that took the brunt of the abuse for Fianna Fails failings.

They too had the chance to collapse the government over Berties corruption and put clear blue water between them and Fianna Fail. But they chose to stay in after some dramatic acting out. They got annialated. They dont exist anymore.

Now, the Fianna Fail government and Bertie were relatively popular - they returned to power even better off as the PDs took the brunt of public anger. What do you think awaits the Greens in 2012 for deliberately and knowingly propping up a deeply unpopular government?

30 Sep 09: Broadcast Authority of Ireland established: New body to regulate and uphold highest standards in broadcasting
28 Sep 09: €500million investment in Irish electricity sector: European Investment Bank helps secure Ireland’s green electricity supplies
27 Sep 09: Guantanamo prisoners arrive in Ireland: Greens welcome the arrival of two prisoners held at the camp, having worked with international human rights organisations to facilitate their resettlement
21 Sep 09: New post code system announced: Introduction will ensure accuracy of postal deliveries and help the emergency services
18 Sep 09: New environment standards for press industry: Magazine and newspaper publishers commit to improved recycling and recovery targets
11 Sep 09: Guidelines announced to prevent the over-zoning of land: New procedures in the Planning and Development Bill will result in improved city and county development plans
9 Sep 09: Fixed support prices introduced for new categories of renewable energy: Govt will pay fixed tariffs for CHP, biomass, wind energy and wave and tidal energy for 15 years
4 Sep 09: Backyard burning targeted in pollution clampdown: €3,000 fine for those who break the law

In 2012, when youre going door to door canvassing you should tell the people who will be taxed up to their eyeballs paying 9.1 billion to service the national debt alone, plus having to borrow more and more to bail out AIB and BOI again and again about all those triumphs.

Im not saying theyre bad things, but you are truly deluding yourself if you think anyone with some perspective is going to give them much weight against NAMA ( Private gain, socialised loss...) and economic meltdown presided over by Fianna Fail, enabled by the Green party.

In fact, people will actually be furious if you try pretend they count for anything in the face of the tribulations they will be facing under a hated government. The Greens will get wiped out. Their policies will be discredited by their association with Fianna Fail and the hardships visited on people by this government.

Sure, the Greens will take the hit but I think that the Greens are a party of principle and if it takes us a few years to get over the hit, so be it. The future of the green economy and sustainability of this country is more important.

Yeah, the PDs were convinced they had to stay the course as well.

Macha

I'll respond tomorrow Sand as I'm falling asleep here but just to say it's nice to discuss this with a non-hysterical and rational person..!

old boy

the single most important point IS the green ministers and tds will be entitled to goverment PENSIONS come the new year, them guys have discovered the taste of GRAVEY and are not likely to jump off that train, having become addicted, without having access to a big moxey of it.

Liam Byrne

taconnol wrote: »

Personally, I hope the current government stays until, say, June. At that time NAMA will have been finalised

They're going to wait until next JUNE ????? :eek:

hallelujajordan wrote: »

What is FG going to do? Reverse all the NAMA decisions and implement their version that, oh yeah, doesn't actually make economic sense?

Better to have a fair one that doesn't make economic sense than an unfair one that, oh yeah, doesn't make economic sense.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I am tired and it was a typo. I'm embarrassed at how childish your comment is.

It's OK; you've already defended the indefensible, but I'm sorry if I added to your embarrasment.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Hate to break it to you - Gilmore will never be Taoiseach.

Wasn't even being discussed. Fact is that this week Gilmore was the only TD with balls.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Are you aware the Greens hold 6 seats?

Unfortunately, given that the ones in those 6 seats have no sense of fairness.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

If you can't see the difference between the PDs and the Greens, well, I really don't know what to say.

Both propping up corrupt Governments, and getting annihilated as a result ? No difference there that I can see.

Tricity Bendix

I will never understand the pure hatred people have for the Green Party. The Greens didn't put Fianna Fáil back into government, the electorate did. They said they were going to go full term, and now people are saying they've lost all respect because that might actually happen? An awful lot of growing up needs to done around how we view coalition governments.

Liam Byrne

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

I will never understand the pure hatred people have for the Green Party. The Greens didn't put Fianna Fáil back into government, the electorate did.

While it's true that some people were stupid enough to vote FF, many of us voted for the Greens, with part of that decision being based on the fact that they promised not to go into Government with the scum.

And yes, they sold us out immediately by doing precisely that.

If I had thought for a SECOND that they would have gotten into bed with FF, then they wouldn't have gotten a single tick alongside any of their candidates' names.

So they can now either (a) reverse that and regain some credibility and some ground or (b) live with the consequences of that - and tomorrow's - decisions.

Tricity Bendix

Liam Byrne wrote: »

While it's true that some people were stupid enough to vote FF, many of us voted for the Greens, with part of that decision being based on the fact that they promised not to go into Government with the scum.

OK, I'll leave aside the fact that that isn't true and move on to the subjective issue. What should the Greens have done, if not enter government? The numbers in the Dáil were chosen by the electorate. Fianna Fáil had a clear mandate to form a government. So the Greens had the decision to either hold their noses and try and implement as much of their agenda as possible, or to walk away, essentially declaring themselves unfit to govern.

Like I said, the Irish people need to grow up when it comes to their attitudes to coalition governments. The Greens are not to blame for Fianna Fáil being in power.

Liam Byrne

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

OK, I'll leave aside the fact that that isn't true and move on to the subjective issue.

Excuse me ? I gave them a vote or two because they'd promised that. :mad:

Liam Byrne

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

The Greens are not to blame for Fianna Fáil being in power.

Would they, or would they not, be in power if the Greens hadn't gone with them ?

Tricity Bendix

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Would they, or would they not, be in power if the Greens hadn't gone with them ?

Yes, they would.


And I'm not going to get into an argument on the other issue.

av8rirl

Anyone else notice the big grin on Noel Dempsey when they were announcing the news that the new programme for goverment had been agreed??? Or the rest of FF standing behind him laughing away...

I happen to like Eamonn Ryan... and think he is decent enough as a minister... but FF standing beside him laughing and grinning really took the piss... they used to say about the PD tail wagging the FF dog... but this is nothing close... the FF dog is making a mockery of the Green tail!!

I can see why the Greens want to stay in power... its easier to change something if you are working on the inside rather than sitting on the outside... but if they don't take down this sham of a government over the weekend... they'll spend a long long time looking from the outside!!

johnnyskeleton

"Green Party sucks satan's cock" is not news I'm afraid.

thebman

Why do people think Eamonn Ryan is a decent Minister?

Broadband is still a disaster in this country and he hasn't done anything to fix it.

FFS he awarded the national broadband scheme to a mobile phone operator with a track record a mile long of complaints by people viewable on this very forum.

We are still falling behind on broadband as we speak to countries with even less money than us!

Macha

thebman wrote: »

Why do people think Eamonn Ryan is a decent Minister?

Broadband is still a disaster in this country and he hasn't done anything to fix it.

FFS he awarded the national broadband scheme to a mobile phone operator with a track record a mile long of complaints by people viewable on this very forum.

We are still falling behind on broadband as we speak to countries with even less money than us!

Eamon Ryan is a decent minister because he achieves great things.

Broadband is still a disaster because, surprisingly, it takes more than 2 years to sort out the broadband for an entire country when you've inherited a very limited network and a planning system that is seriously in need of reform. He hasn't done ANYTHING? Really.

But in the last 2 years, broadband subscriptions have doubled and as of Sept 09, over 2/3 of Irish households now have access to broadband. The Next Generation Broadband strategy was published and expects all of Ireland to be covered by 2010. And if you're going to complain about who is in charge of the contract, please have something better than "a lot of people on Boards have complained about them". The decision of who to award a contract to is a little more complicated than that.

Now let's have a look at his achievements in the area of energy:
-28 Sep 09: €500million investment in Irish electricity sector: European Investment Bank helps secure Ireland’s green electricity supplies
-9 Sep 09: Fixed support prices introduced for new categories of renewable energy: Govt will pay fixed tariffs for CHP, biomass, wind energy and wave and tidal energy for 15 years
-16 April 09: 3,700 green jobs created by ESB: Green policies leading to the creation of jobs in the areas of smart meters, smart networks, electric vehicles, wind energy, home insulation and green technology (As well as the other thousands of green jobs created since the Greens got into power)
-3 April 09: New electric vehicle agreement signed: Eamon Ryan and the ESB sign Memoranda of understanding with Renault-Nissan to ensure the delivery of electric vehicles to the Irish market
-25 March 09: Home Energy Scheme launches: From today Sustainable Energy Ireland will accept applications from householders wishing to save money and energy by insulating their properties.
-8 Feb 09: €100m national insulation scheme announced. Scheme which will create 4,000 jobs, upgrade 50,000 homes and save householders €700 per year on heating bills
-28 Jan 09: European Commission awards €100m to fund an electricity interconnector between Ireland and the UK to secure energy supply
-26 Jan 09: Europe announces it will ban energy inefficient lightbulbs. Following Ireland’s lead the EU phases out will begin in September 2009.
-1 Jan 09: New energy rating system introduced for all homes for sale or rent. The BER system will rate each home on its energy efficiency, with A being the highest and G the lowest.

Not to mention other achievements such as:
- publication of a National Energy Efficiency Action Plan
- overseeing the increase in 50% of installed renewable energy capacity
- the imminent publication of National Green Procurement Guidelines (a crucial factor in driving the Irish green economy)

I could go on.

BTW, no 3rd level fees, vouched TD expenses and immediate recruitment of 500 teachers are part of PfG. And if anyone else wants to argue that the talks were a show, please explain why members of the Greens were sleeping in the office tonight, printing up and stapling copies for today's Convention? Seriously, some people need to come back down to reality.

Macha

Sand wrote: »

Now, the Fianna Fail government and Bertie were relatively popular - they returned to power even better off as the PDs took the brunt of public anger. What do you think awaits the Greens in 2012 for deliberately and knowingly propping up a deeply unpopular government?

I don't agree with your analysis at all. I accept that part of the electorate will be angry (albeit misguidedly IMO) at the Greens at the next GE, whenever that is. But the main reason the PDs disappeared is because their policies were totally adopted by Fianna Fail. FF is sometimes like a blank slate that will simply take on whichever policies they think will keep them in power. As such, they present themselves as the 'Party of Power'. But Green policies are less easier to sell to the electorate than the PD liberalisation politics. Plus they aim to remove some of FF's treasured conditions, such as unvouched expenses and corporate donations (both now agreed in new PfG).

Sand wrote: »

In 2012, when youre going door to door canvassing you should tell the people who will be taxed up to their eyeballs paying 9.1 billion to service the national debt alone, plus having to borrow more and more to bail out AIB and BOI again and again about all those triumphs.

This is descending into melodrama. The economic crisis would still be there, regardless of policies taken in other areas. That doesn't mean that policies shouldn't be taken in other areas..!

As for our tax, I'd like to remind you that Irish people have one of the lowest rates of income tax in the world. We don't know what it's like to actually have to pay for services because for the last 10 years, they've been subsidised by the windfall property tax that SHOULD have been used to invest in this country. Instead it was used to pay off unions and the public sector under the guise of 'social partnership'. Yes taxes are going to go up, because we don't have a housing bubble to coast along on!!

To argue that the economic meltdown was enabled by the Green Party reveals that you don't fully understand the reasons for the economic crisis. The seeds for this were laid abroad (we are an exporting country) and laid here over the lax financial regulation and housing bubble. It reached its peak in 2007, just when the Greens came into power so again, to say this is the Greens fault is just nonsense.

Again, I'd like to point out that in the 2007 General Election, it was the Green Party that had the lowest economic growth forecasts. Everyone else was promising the sun, moon and stars as usual.

Biggins

So last night, just in time for the Nine O'clock news (amazing coincident!) the Green party managed to finally agree with the present Fianna Fail led government over the "Program For Government". Now was it dragged out for PR ("We fought long and hard lads so give us your support!") or were they really struggling up to the last minute - sooner or later we will know in the annals of historic time - someone will write a book (hopefully non-fiction unlike Berties).
Call me a sceptic but going on the previous actions of FF and the Greens, they are no stranger to using every trick in the book to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate and especially this weekend, their ground voting members!

Ludo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

While it's true that some people were stupid enough to vote FF, many of us voted for the Greens, with part of that decision being based on the fact that they promised not to go into Government with the scum.

And yes, they sold us out immediately by doing precisely that.

If I had thought for a SECOND that they would have gotten into bed with FF, then they wouldn't have gotten a single tick alongside any of their candidates' names.

So they can now either (a) reverse that and regain some credibility and some ground or (b) live with the consequences of that - and tomorrow's - decisions.

^^^THIS^^^

I voted green numerous times. The last election they promised not to go into gov with FF. Therefore I felt comfortable continuing to give them my number 1 preference. And then they did a complete about face and did exactly what they said they would not do.

ANYONE who thinks they did not lie about this is deluding themselves or is so much of a politician thay they have blinded themselves to truth and obviously accept this kind of lying is normal decent behaviour.

Macha

Biggins wrote: »

So last night, just in time for the Nine O'clock news (amazing coincident!) the Green party managed to finally agree with the present Fianna Fail led government over the "Program For Government". Now was it dragged out for PR ("We fought long and hard lads so give us your support!") or were they really struggling up to the last minute - sooner or later we will know in the annals of historic time - someone will write a book (hopefully non-fiction unlike Berties).
Call me a sceptic but going on the previous actions of FF and the Greens, they are no stranger to using every trick in the book to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate and especially this weekend, their ground voting members!

Biggins, did you even read my previous post? If this is the case, why are members of the greens stapling together copies of the PfG as we speak?

Biggins

taconnol wrote: »

Biggins, did you even read my previous post? If this is the case, why are members of the greens stapling together copies of the PfG as we speak?

Because as I mentioned in that my last post "...they are no stranger to using every trick in the book to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate and especially this weekend, their ground voting members!"

With the greatest of respect to yourself and your opinion, how do we know that they are just now "stapling together copies of the PfG as we speak?"

Macha

Biggins wrote: »

Because as I mentioned in that my last post "...they are no stranger to using every trick in the book to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate and especially this weekend, their ground voting members!"

Ah, I didn't realise you words were gospel.

[QUOTE=Biggins;62477319
With the greatest of respect to yourself and your opinion, how do we know that they are just now "stapling together copies of the PfG as we speak?"[/QUOTE]
I am a member of the Greens and my colleagues are over there right now. I am not going to invade their individual privacy by putting up screenshots of Facebook or text messages.

(My God, I wish Russell were alive so I could shake his hand)

Gurgle

No 3rd level fees
Recruit some teachers
Ban on corporate donations
Vouched expenses

Nothing green in it, but if these actually happen the greens will have taken a large leap in my estimation.