New Programme for Government agreed

Biggins

taconnol wrote: »

Ah, I didn't realise you words were gospel.


I am a member of the Greens and my colleagues are over there right now. I am not going to invade their individual privacy by putting up screenshots of Facebook or text messages.

I won't retort to the former and bring the tone down. I'm guilty enough sadly of doing that at times.

As to the latter, I will respect what you say but please allow me to be still an independent sceptic.

Macha

Biggins wrote: »

I won't retort to the former and bring the tone down. I'm guilty enough sadly of doing that at times.

Bringing the tone down? Your proof for the Greens lying is a previous quote of yours saying they have a habit of lying..! If that isn't circular logic, I don't know what is. If you want to talk about bringing down the tone of debate, let's talk about that.

Biggins wrote: »

As to the latter, I will respect what you say but please allow me to be still an independent sceptic.

It would be nice if you could provide some proof for your scepticism. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion but those based on facts tend to be the more useful ones.

Gurgle

taconnol wrote: »

As for our tax, I'd like to remind you that Irish people have one of the lowest rates of income tax in the world.

I'm gonna have to take a poke at this particular gem:
I'm paying tax at 51% (41% + 8% + 2%).
If I earned > ~70k, I'd hit the PRSI cap and the tax rate drops to 43%.
If I earned > ~100k, the higher levy kicks in and it goes back up to 44% - and stays there all the way to the sky.

To put it another way, the bulk of the tax take by earnings is for that part of everyone's pay that comes in between ~€40k and ~€70k.

If you're earning a lot of money, then we have wonderfully low income tax.

Or if you're earning fùck all (yes €40k is loads when you're living at home with Mammy, it's fùck all if you're paying a mortgage and raising a family), then we have reasonably low income tax.

For the rest of us, there is nothing low about our tax rates.

Macha

You see Gurgle, what I actually said was that we have one of the lowest rates of personal income tax in the world. What you did was write about income tax in Ireland. Please take a look at this graph:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg

You may not be happy with the rate of income tax you pay but the fact remains that Ireland has one of the lowest rates of personal income tax in the world. Nothing in your post refutes this. In fact to be more precise, I think we are 24th lowest in the world in terms of lowest personal income tax rates.

Gurgle

taconnol wrote: »

You see Gurgle, what I actually said was that we have one of the lowest rates of personal income tax in the world. What you did was write about income tax in Ireland.

Evidently, I got into too much detail.
Let me re-phrase.

In Ireland, the average income tax paid is relatively low.
This is skewed by the fact that the people earning the most are paying at a lower marginal rate than those in the middle.
For middle income earners, the rate is not low.

Trotter

Gurgle wrote: »

No 3rd level fees
Recruit some teachers
Ban on corporate donations
Vouched expenses

Nothing green in it, but if these actually happen the greens will have taken a large leap in my estimation.

So no rollback of the education cuts then? Just a symbolic 500 teachers. Those 500 will teach the rapidly increasing number of pupils, thereby doing sweet FA to the pupil teacher ratio.

Thanks Greens! FF must be black and blue from being over that barrell. I'll gladly watch this party being destroyed in the next GE if they dont roll back those education cuts at primary level, or better still, walk away this evening.

Macha

Gurgle wrote: »

Evidently, I got into too much detail.
Let me re-phrase.

In Ireland, the average income tax paid is relatively low.
This is skewed by the fact that the people earning the most are paying at a lower marginal rate than those in the middle.
For middle income earners, the rate is not low.

There is nothing wrong with your detail - I wasn't disagreeing with the facts you put up.

But now you're saying that personal income tax is low for most, just not for a certain section of taxpayers. And I ask, compared to which other countries?

We have a higher than most rate of VAT to compensate, a tax that is very unfair and hits people indiscriminately.

av8rirl

taconnol wrote: »

Eamon Ryan is a decent minister because he achieves great things.

I said a decent minister... not the messiah... He achieves great things??? maybe in your eyes!!! When I said he seemed decent, I meant he comes across clear and coherent and seems in touch with reality... I don't think he'd try pull a fast one... so he looks credible and believeable... but then you see him standing for the news conference with all the FF lads and lassies laughing away with him about the difficult talks and how they just got them finished in time for the news!

taconnol wrote: »

BTW, no 3rd level fees, vouched TD expenses and immediate recruitment of 500 teachers are part of PfG. And if anyone else wants to argue that the talks were a show, please explain why members of the Greens were sleeping in the office tonight, printing up and stapling copies for today's Convention? Seriously, some people need to come back down to reality.

If I remember the news correctly last night they said the recruitment of 500 teachers over a 3 year period... well big swingin mickey!!! Those teachers should be starting on Monday morning...

No 3rd level fees? Are these the 3rd level fees that have been talked about but not actually brought in?? So nothing has changed on that front. That one is a bit like the developers looking for permission for 10 storeys when they really want 7... the planning dept telling them they can only have 7 so they agree... planning think they won and are happy with it...

Any chance FF are hoodwinking the Greens??

Taconnol you seemed to have such a vested interest in the Greens that you can't see thru the BS... I'm just a regular Joe Public voter who wants the best for the country... and right now a FF government with the support of the Greens isn't that!

Macha

av8rirl wrote: »

I said a decent minister... not the messiah... He achieves great things??? maybe in your eyes!!! When I said he seemed decent, I meant he comes across clear and coherent and seems in touch with reality... I don't think he'd try pull a fast one... so he looks credible and believeable... but then you see him standing for the news conference with all the FF lads and lassies laughing away with him about the difficult talks and how they just got them finished in time for the news!

Er..I don't quite know what to say. He laughs with relief at a conference and suddenly he's trying to pull "a fast one"? And I'm not going to apologise for my choice of words. I didn't mean them in the religious sense, only in the basic sense of the words. Your choice to interpret them as you wish is outside of my control.

From the rest of your post, I gather it wouldn't matter what the Greens secured, you would still write something similar. I can't quite believe what you've written in relation to third level fees "nothing has changed"..very odd.

Your portrayal of yourself as "Joe Public voter" doesn't do much to further your arguments, if that's what you're going to rely on. As if you have a monopoly on wanting what's best for this country?

Trotter

Can anyone else confirm that there isnt a return to 27-1 for the pupil teacher ratio at primary level?

Last week the Greens were walking if they didnt get this!

SkepticOne

I hope the rank and file green party members understand what will happen if their party is seen to support the overpaying to the tune of billions for distressed bank assets and the bailout of developer friends of Fianna Fáil. It is all a bit abstract now but it is going to become a lot clearer as the thing moves forward.

turgon

Results at about 6pm tonight

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1010/breaking2.htm

Have the popcorn ready :pac:

Biggins

taconnol wrote: »

It would be nice if you could provide some proof for your scepticism. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion but those based on facts tend to be the more useful ones.

I don't have to provide any proof of any opinions I hold to YOU. None of us do.
Its just that, an opinion. Next thing we know you will be demanding to know what way we will vote in something! Jeasus!
Who the hell do you think you are!
(For the record, my "opinion and scepticism" only partly comes from 30 plus years of studying and being directly involved in party politics at local and national level!)

I've been reading about a lot things you say is going on right now.
How about you go proving proof instead of just saying "my colleagues are over there right now"!
I could easily say the same or enter the same text on my keyboard.

...and that brings up another question!
What the hell are you doing on this internet forum all this morning so far if as you appear to come across as, a committed Green member with a serious ideology, when in fact if you were that committed, you should now be at the RDS, using that important vote you might have and convincing face to face what your thoughts are on the future of this state!!!

population

6pm will tell all.

The Greens either amputate the gangerous limb and survive slightly wounded but with a party intact, or alternatively let the rot carry on and die slowly and painfully.

MKMaguire

As was admitted by the 'Yellows' (formally Green!) on 'Tonight with Vincent Browne', TV3 on Wednesday night, their first 'P for G' which had 13 headings for forming a government ... NONE has been implimented, NONE!? And since going into government the 'Yellows' have worked on F.Fs agenda. All week and today it's showtime for them.

Ludo

Out of curiosity where would I find details of the original PFG from when the coalition was formed? just so I can see what exactly the Greens have done compared to what they said they would get done.

population

taconnol wrote: »

What I know is that Eamon Ryan and John Gormley are the two best ministers in this government


Yeah but look who they are in Government with..... It is not exactly a high watermark. For months we have been hearing about what an "incredible" and "exceptional" Ceann Comhairle and Minister JOD is/was. I think he is a moronic useless thieving gobsh!te. If you are saying Ryan and Gormley are better than him and his ilk, so what???

population

Ludo wrote: »

Out of curiosity where would I find details of the original PFG from when the coalition was formed? just so I can see what exactly the Greens have done compared to what they said they would get done.

I think somebody posted it a few pages ago???

ardmacha

If I remember the news correctly last night they said the recruitment of 500 teachers over a 3 year period... well big swingin mickey!!! Those teachers should be starting on Monday morning...

No 3rd level fees? Are these the 3rd level fees that have been talked about but not actually brought in?? So nothing has changed on that front

Any protection of schools in a country where tax revenues are two thirds of government expenditure is not to be sneezed at.

However the 3rd level fee freeze is just a recipe for profoundly underfunded education as there is no money in the public kitty to adequately fund the institutions. The result can only be 3rd rate 3rd level. There is a real need to support schools to give everyone a start in life, but if someone gets to adulthood with the grades required to enter third level then they personally should be expected to contribute something towards the siginficant cost of an education that will benefit them greatly. People will say that graduates should not be saddled with loans etc, but it is not clear to me how saddling the general taxpayer with the loans is better.

irish_bob

Gurgle wrote: »

No 3rd level fees
Recruit some teachers
Ban on corporate donations
Vouched expenses

Nothing green in it, but if these actually happen the greens will have taken a large leap in my estimation.

i feel the exact opposite on all the above reasons

Euro_Kraut

irish_bob wrote: »

i feel the exact opposite on all the above reasons

You are in favour of unvouched expenses??

Grudaire

Gurgle wrote: »

I'm gonna have to take a poke at this particular gem:
I'm paying tax at 51% (41% + 8% + 2%).

...

For the rest of us, there is nothing low about our tax rates.

You're forgetting tax credits - that skews it back down, and is (in general) more favourable to lower income (ie takes a bigger chunk out of tax from lower incomes)

timmywex

For anyone interested, the programme for government can be found on the green party website.

dfbemt

From the summary

'We will abolish the employee PRSI ceiling' - This is a new tax IMO
'Introduce Carbon Tax in Budget 2010' - This is a new tax IMO
'we will move to introduce a Site Valuation Tax' - This is a new tax IMO
'Introduce charging for treated water' - This is a new tax IMO

Is this for real?

How much more money can they take from us.

Macha

Biggins wrote: »

<snip>

What a nasty, nasty post.

So you think it's OK to continue to cast baseless assertions on the Green party in the face of contrary evidence? As I've already said, I am not going to post up my colleagues private text messages and facebook details. I don't know what other way to prove it.

Biggins wrote: »

...and that brings up another question!
What the hell are you doing on this internet forum all this morning so far if as you appear to come across as, a committed Green member with a serious ideology, when in fact if you were that committed, you should now be at the RDS, using that important vote you might have and convincing face to face what your thoughts are on the future of this state!!!

I unfortunately had to work today and couldn't take the time off. Such is life. But hey, you're just going to have to believe me, aren't you?

I would really appreciate it if you could stop with the unfounded cheap shots. They are totally out of order.

Ludo

The summary appears to be gone from their site again. Was there any mention in it about how to make money saving cut backs in the public sector?

*EDIT* never mind...found the complete waffle.

Public Service Reform

· Value for Money reviews on all large capital projects

· Full review of expenses system for the public service

· All senior positions in the public service to be open to people from the private sector

· We will reform how senior positions are filled by having an ‘outside’ chair on appointment boards

· Equal number of civil servants and private sector membership on senior appointment panels

· Seniority eliminated as a factor in promotion appointments

· ‘cooling off’ period for public servants in the acceptance of outside appointments or consultancies

Grudaire

dfbemt wrote: »

From the summary

'We will abolish the employee PRSI ceiling' - This is a new tax IMO
'Introduce Carbon Tax in Budget 2010' - This is a new tax IMO
'we will move to introduce a Site Valuation Tax' - This is a new tax IMO
'Introduce charging for treated water' - This is a new tax IMO

Is this for real?

How much more money can they take from us.

Have you seen the deficit that we have been left with by years of FF policies (Does anyone remember when they gave everyone who had money 25% extra free for not spending it for a few years!?). The answer is that lots NEEDS to be taken, I'd expect the above, and more taxes. (There is no need for the IMO, IMO)

Grudaire

Ludo wrote: »

The summary appears to be gone from their site again. Was there any mention in it about how to make money saving cut backs in the public sector?

This Summary?

Ludo

Thanks..moment of temporary blindness made me miss it :-)
Post edited above.

dfbemt

Cliste wrote: »

(There is no need for the IMO, IMO)

Touchy !

I am just expressing My Opinion - sorry