New Programme for Government agreed

dan719

Rb wrote: »

I'm glad I'm a student

However, I have to laugh at the people who rant about increased taxes, it's as though they haven't the foggiest idea exactly stuck this country is for money.

In fact, any party that wasn't proposing further taxes at this time shouldn't be let near the controls of this country.

I know. Aren't they so stupid, complaining about taxes when we are broke.

I am so glad, that instead of letting students pay for their education at third level, we will continue to fund it unnecassarily.

Did you actually read your post? Because it is f*cking ret*rded.

Grudaire

Het-Field wrote: »

Prima facie, that doesnt seem like a bad motive at all. However, in the current climate, it is completely unsustainable. It's not dissimilar to Labour's attempt to raise taxes to put extra money into cervical cancer/cerebral palsey services. There is nothing inoble about that. However it is untenable. The size of the defecit ensures that the country must work within itself, and spend conservatively. In reality, it will be impossbile to ignore every sector of society, particularly when the public sector, and social welfare budgets amount to almost 50 Billion per annum. Equally, the health budget (Around 6 Billion) is too large, and encourages wanton waste. Cuts from these sectors will drive people crazy. However, a longer term mal-effect will result if the current reticence to adequatly cut is continued.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be cuts - I believe there should be cuts. I just also believe that we are in a situation that necessitates a rise in taxes. Why not use this rise in taxes to decrease pollution!?

The_Minister

efb wrote: »

If anyone here is complaining about removing the PRSI ceiling you don't have my sympathies! You know what it is? Some of us are at the other end!

:rolleyes:
The (official) point of PRSI is that it is a 'social insurance' for yourself if you ever become unemployed.
In effect people like yourself (and myself if I get another job) are subsidised by those paying more, but to a limited extent.

Removing the ceiling on PRSI removes all pretence that it is about insuring yourself and turns it into a straight tax.

Tipsy Mac

Rb wrote: »

I'm glad I'm a student

However, I have to laugh at the people who rant about increased taxes, it's as though they haven't the foggiest idea exactly stuck this country is for money.

In fact, any party that wasn't proposing further taxes at this time shouldn't be let near the controls of this country.

Try telling this to the likes of John O'Donoghue, he still thinks that we are living in streets paved with gold, it makes me happy everytime I hear how he spent my hard earned taxes. :mad:

brianthebard

The_Minister wrote: »

Can some explain what exactly this means:

It sounds like money put into those deposit accounts can only be lended to green projects by the bank, not developers or non-green projects (just my reading of it).

From what I read about the suggested college fees plan in the past it would have only applied to people who's parents earned over 100/125k. I don't think preventing this system coming in is a good idea.

efb

It covers more than just SW payments there is alot more to it than that

Euro_Kraut

Het-Field wrote: »

Low taxation is not the main contributing factor to this mess, it was ludicriously wanton and lack of frugality which has driven us to this point.

Don't forget the tax cuts were the main vehicle for Govt spending during the boom years.

Het-Field

Cliste wrote: »

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be cuts - I believe there should be cuts. I just also believe that we are in a situation that necessitates a rise in taxes. Why not use this rise in taxes to decrease pollution!?

The defecit has to be the first thing addressed. The rise in taxation has to be utilised to deal with this issue. At almost 26 Billion, you could eradicate a variety of Governmental departments, and still not be anywhere near that total. All cash flow, tax hikes,and frugality MUST be used to close this defecit. If we start sticking huge money into a variety of other programmes, we are running the risk of exacerbation. In practice, Ireland cannot afford any particular agenda at the moment. We are in the biggest hole possible.

Furthermore, the first party which took rational and productive steps to eradicate pollution is no longer in existence.

Euro_Kraut

Ludo wrote: »

Where is the money saving though? Something vague about value for money on capital projects and curtailing expenses fair enough...but it is gonna take a LOT more than that to bring the public sector spending in line with reality.

It not a money saving package. It is an institutional reform of the Public Sector that will help it to operate better by increasing flexibility and competition fro positions.

The_Minister

The immegration section may raise a few eyebrows.

Remove the labour market needs test for current and future work permit
holders who have been made redundant. Policy in this area will be kept under
review in light of the changing needs of the national labour market.

Absurdum

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1010/programme.pdf

The Animal Welfare proposals fall far short of what was expected.

Het-Field

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Don't forget the tax cuts were the main vehicle for Govt spending during the boom years.

They were tax cuts in the areas of boom, which eventually went bust. A clever low tax economy would have spread the low tax model a lot further, and would have seen the folly of such policy. Remember, in early 2007 Bertie rejected the boom as a "bubble", effectively stating that it could go on for years

I dont disagree that our low tax model in one sector, which the economy was predicated on, was the vehicle for the spending. However, had the government not gone greedy, and started to buy elections with small goodbags on sporadic budget days, and had taken a more conservative line, the mess wouldnt be as bad.

At the end of the day, the constitution of the HSE's beuraucracy, e-voting, universality in a variery of measures (medical cards for all), consistently large hikes in foreign aid (without any accountability on the part of corrupt African governments, who utilise the money to keep their police state running), along with the poorly scouted out national development projects, which ran hugely over budget, all contributed to this mess in a large way. Billions were wasted, as the expertise was not good enough. It didnt really matter to the Gvoernment, as the good times were rolling.

The_Minister

The animal welfare proposals are interesting:

Animal Welfare
· We will enact the Animal Health and Welfare Bill, which will consolidate and
update existing legislation in relation to the health and welfare of our nation’s
animals. Among the provisions of the legislation will be a commitment to:
o Adopt the principles and 5 freedoms set out in the recent Scottish
Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, particularly in
relation to cruelty and neglect, to ensure that the welfare of animals is
Proposed Renewed Programme for Government
10th October 2009
25
properly protected and that the penalties for offenders are increased
significantly,
o Replace the culling of badgers with more effective and humane
methods of control
o Phase-out fur farming over three years
o End stag hunting

I can't believe they are ending stag hunting. Doesn't that mean we will have to pay civil servants to shoot deer?

EDIT: Link to the referenced Scottish legislation http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2006/asp_20060011_en_1

Liam Byrne

Absurdum wrote: »

The Animal Welfare proposals fall far short of what was expected.

You mean they're not giving them a few million and an Audi ? :rolleyes:

Het-Field

Many of the jobs in the programme seem to be based in governmental agencies, and sub-groups. Does that meanthat the public sector is going to be expanded in some capacity ? Sounds a bit like 1978 to me ?

brianthebard

Presumably the fur lobby in the party will be ok with the phasing out plan? Which means they'll vote yes to NAMA. I'm amazed that this plan hinges on a small group of fur activists. Feels like a kick in the crotch.

The_Minister

Het-Field wrote: »

Many of the jobs in the programme seem to be based in governmental agencies, and sub-groups. Does that meanthat the public sector is going to be expanded in some capacity ? Sounds a bit like 1978 to me ?

Erm
We will take on 1,000 Third and Fourth level graduates to provide additional
capacity and skills across the public service and in Government Departments and
provide valuable work experience.

Het-Field

brianthebard wrote: »

Presumably the fur lobby in the party will be ok with the phasing out plan? Which means they'll vote yes to NAMA. I'm amazed that this plan hinges on a small group of fur activists. Feels like a kick in the crotch.

Its an appalling state of affairs. There are bigger issues then the fur lobby, which is a vested interest of lefty nutters. One often forgets that PETA and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) are no better then Youth Defence, and those crazy anti abortion nutters who take criminal action to further their agenda. Remember, any animal rights activist who thows blood on another person is committing a crime.

Only in Ireland could a small vested interest be bought off like this.

The_Minister

What exactly is the significance of our signing the Antartic Treaty?

PHB

I welcome the simplification of the tax system, a carbon tax, water charges, an ICSC, a desperately desperately needed CIO, integrated ticketing, mandatory BER signs on lets, lowering the voting age, PR list for european parliament elections, multiple... day elections, interesting corporate donation laws, cheaper FOI's, medical camps on peacekeeping missions, and and a generally good programme for government.

thebman

TBH the political donation thing is the one thing that I thought if they get reform on this, they should stay in.

However, that implementation they have arrived at looks weird. How does a pool fund work? Why would anyone donate to the fund? How transparent is it going to be? What loop holes are there elsewhere for additional funding from dodgy sources?

All depends on its implementation really but political donation reform is a must and they have that and getting rid of unvouched expenses would really help clean up politics in Ireland.

Oh and this is fantasy IMO:
We will deliver 100MBs for all second-level schools by 2012 and make broadband available to every house in the country by 2012, subject to European Stimulus Funding.

They do know the NBS is already failing to provide broadband to every house??

thebman

taconnol wrote: »

Eamon Ryan is a decent minister because he achieves great things.

Broadband is still a disaster because, surprisingly, it takes more than 2 years to sort out the broadband for an entire country when you've inherited a very limited network and a planning system that is seriously in need of reform. He hasn't done ANYTHING? Really.

There still isn't a viable plan after 2 years to catch up to other nations!

But in the last 2 years, broadband subscriptions have doubled and as of Sept 09, over 2/3 of Irish households now have access to broadband.

As long as you include mobile bb which isn't bb. Is anyone surprised that if you actually provide access to BB no matter how crap that people will take it up :rolleyes:

The Next Generation Broadband strategy was published and expects all of Ireland to be covered by 2010. And if you're going to complain about who is in charge of the contract, please have something better than "a lot of people on Boards have complained about them". The decision of who to award a contract to is a little more complicated than that.

Condescending much? I could give about a thousand reasons why the NBS is a disaster but what would be the point? You'll still try to polish it to look like gold because you don't care if it works or not as long as you can make it look like it works and claim it as a green achievement.

The boards thread I posted was an example that can be used by not even leaving the forum thats why I posted it :rolleyes:

Only reason my arse. Cope on to yourself and stop the I'm better than you attitude. All it does is put more people off the green party TBH.

Villain

expand cancer prevention measures such as colorectal screening and cervical vaccination programmes at the earliest opportunity, in accordance with clinical priorities.

They couldn't find €10 million for the Cervical Cancer Vaccine but they could ban Fur Farming and Stag Hunting, they make me sick. Mary White the next time I meet you in Carlow I am going to tell you exactly what I think you and it won't be pleasant.

jhegarty

The_Minister wrote: »

What exactly is the significance of our signing the Antartic Treaty?

Just to look good I think.

I don't think we have plans to claim any part of Antarctica as Irish territory.

Biggins

taconnol wrote: »

...I would really appreciate it if you could stop with the unfounded cheap shots. They are totally out of order.

Well sorry for having an opinion. I didn't know, again, we all have to explain ourselves in full with detail.
- BUT I apologise for any offence caused. Its clear your a decent person with good strong views.
We both want to see the current mess get better.

---

I have previously greatly supported the Greens.
Consider me wrong but I feel they need to get back to basics.

Are they a party with a majority Green issue manifest along with a decent understandable list of other concerns or are they now a mainstream political party with a majority manifesto of "other concerns" and a small minority of green issues?

Somehow I feel, the distinction has become lost.

Het-Field

thebman wrote: »

There still isn't a viable plan after 2 years to catch up to other nations!



Condescending much? I could give about a thousand reasons why the NBS is a disaster but what would be the point? You'll still try to polish it to look like gold because you don't care if it works or not as long as you can make it look like it works and claim it as a green achievement.

The boards thread I posted was an example that can be used by not even leaving the forum thats why I posted it :rolleyes:

Only reason my arse. Cope on to yourself and stop the I'm better than you attitude. All it does is put more people off the green party TBH.

Too many Greens have ignored the fact that they should recognise the concept of "Collective Cabinet Responsibiliy".

The poster you are referring to is celebrating limited successes in job creation (in ESB, a semi state body mind), and a ban on incandescent lightbulbs, which The Minister (boards poster rather then elected rep (which he should be !)) has already rebuffed.

However, they ignore the fact that they have contributed little or nothing in a time of economic crisis, and have een more then happy to vote along FF lines, without so much as a whimper. When the PDs were in coalition, with small numbers, unelected officials like Michael McDowell (1989-1992), and John Minihan (1997-2002) used their position as party chairperson, to seek a separate identity from Fianna Fail. This was successful, to the point that Haughey once referred to McDowell as he "nastiest piece of work he ever had to deal with". Boyle has failed to play this role properly, and has looked like an idiot as he seeks to carve a separate identity between the two governmental parties. Internally, the Greens have been subsumed, and have failed to make the adequate cuts, and have been obstructing Governmental ability to do so, by citing "the most vunrable" etc as a solid reason for this.

Its alright and fine to consider yourself a niche party, however, the public have copped onto the Greens as a niche party, and have rebuked them for this. The public desire a colaition party to act as a watchdog. When the PDs failed in this task, the public let them know how they felt. In the end this led to a local activist, and long time minister returning to the parliment, with 6 others falling by the wayside.

Leaving Government at this point wouldnt be a slight on their leadership credentials. Times have been tough for almost a year, and the first 12 months of their governmental participation was a mess as a result of Bertie. If they felt they couldnt achieve anymore, they should pull the plug. In their tenure, they have seen a full blown bank bailout (regardless of necessity, no other private company recieved such a backing), the nationalisation of a bank whose existence is not of systemic importance (even though their lending policy was), increased tax hikes for certain sectors of society, huge reticence to seek a re-energisation of Ireland as a competitive hub, an inability to engage in acts of selfless bravity vis-a-vis expenditure cuts.

I blame FF for the development of this crisis. I have outlined my biggest gripes on this thread already. Im not somebody who has a long term dislike for FF. I voted for the government in 2007. I ahve respect for their history, I have respect for some of their current cabinet. However, I dont respect their management of this crisis. The management of the crisis is also party of the Green's remit, and they have failed miserably.

Soldie

Absurdum wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1010/programme.pdf

The first few lines harp on about how it's a "global" problem. How do they expect to be taken seriously when they can't even admit their own failings? It's pathetic.

The_Minister

From Politics.ie: Torture not so bad? - new PfG guts existing PfG rendition stance

Apparently the Greens have backed down on rendition since the last PfG

Biggins

The_Minister wrote: »

From Politics.ie: Torture not so bad? - new PfG guts existing PfG rendition stance

Apparently the Greens have backed down on rendition since the last PfG

I wonder was that at the instance of FF or what?
Strange thing to drop out of the blue?

---

I have a question also.
Assuming that the ground members only get the details of the new PFG in paper form today.
How much time do they get to digest the 43 pages and come to their own conclusions before they are asked to vote on it?

The_Minister

Biggins wrote: »

I wonder was that at the instance of FF or what?
Strange thing to drop out of the blue?

They probably realised that it isn't happening anymore (not that it probably ever did), and stopped caring.