Anyone else like me?

legal-eagle

Seriously, I personally have no anger to politicans and bankers. All this talk of Fat cats, corrupt etc etc anyone else sick of it. Politicans by and large work their boll0x of particlurarly leaders of the country. They don't exactly make a million quid a year and get grief all the time, I wouldn't even begrudge them taking a bung here and there......so what. The worst thing is most people have no understanding of the global international credit crisis or even national politics yet are the loudest critics.

I'm quite indifferent to it all, the Lisbon Treaty is another example. How many of these voters really care about Ireland's involvement in Europe, does it really affect their day to day lives....most of the "No" voters (I know) reasons for not voting were pathetic and so inaccurate. Discuss

peasant

Whatever it is you're smoking ...I want none of it

mikemac

Legal-eagle, are you working in law?
Are you for sure that sector has experienced a downturn?
Or maybe you didn't as you are brilliant and congratulations on that. And maybe you got a pay rise to pay your extra levies.

But if you didn't then you are in same boat as everyone else, for example never buying a house but seeing your hope of a firesale evaporated by NAMA and the certainitly that your tax money would be spent on social and affordable housing when you couldn't even afford a house yourself

Sand

Mr Lenihan?

Liam Byrne

"Discuss"

The only discussion a post like that will prompt is whether you're living in the real world, or whether you're just on boards after coming off your Late Late "interview" with Tubridy.

So they're not "making a million"; that might be relevant if they were working for a blue-chip company somewhere, but they're working and being paid by US, so we're entitled to demand that they can do their job.

If they can't agree to do their job for the wages offered without taking backhanders and OTT expense, let them quit their job and go work somewhere that enables them to earn "millions".

Mind you, earning millions usually involves some talent and management ability, so I'd say they'd all be down the dole in no time.

Jarren

Keep taking those drugs:rolleyes:

mikemac

legal-eagle wrote: »

They don't exactly make a million quid a year and get grief all the time, I wouldn't even begrudge them taking a bung here and there......so what. The worst thing is most people have no understanding of the global international credit crisis or even national politics yet are the loudest critics.

What an arrogant statement!
Yep, the Yes side (and I voted yes) know all and anyone else is a fool?

So you know it all?

ronbyrne2005

They may work their b0ll1x off but usually only on local political stuff to keep their voters happy so they will be reelected. They use government/taxpayers resources to ensure their reelection in a given constituency.

Also German, French and British politicians work just as hard and get a LOT less pay/pensions.

Mr. Incognito

Out and out Troll.

Politicians are elected to legislate.

Instead of legislating they spend their time commissioning reports so they don't have to make decisions. Bring in cost effective construction contracts to keep the sheep happy and refuse to make them mandatory thereby guaranteeing major over spend in public construction contracts that are given to connected parties (Think Jackie Healy Rae's son getting all the new government construction contracts in Kerry)

They deflect blame and take no responsibility and spend most of their time at home doing nixers and backhanders to get re-elected all the while paying themselves many many many times the average industrial wage and unvouched expenses thereby insulating themselves from average people and their problems.

They sit 96 days of the year-- do not sit on mondays or fridays and claim insane expenses, for example they are given 50 euro walking around money.

Bankers are no better. They pay themselves millions in bonuses and then engage in reckless lending, trading and proping up developers and hiking the price of property in this country to levels that ordinary people cannot get a loan. They they rely on our curropt politicans to wade in with our public money and extract no concessions to ensure these bankers actually start lending again and moving their primary responsibility to the shareholders who have just gotten burned when they spend 16 euro per share.

People like you, and your views have led to the proliferation and curruption of this country, inch by inch. Charlie robbing us blind, Bertie the Minister for finance with no bank account and and debts forgiven by the banks when he became Taoiseach. Your lack or anger, action or concern while we are all being financially raped ensures that there will be no Ireland left for our children to inherit. Enjoy emigration sir where you will still have no opinion but this time as a non national you will also have no say.

prinz

legal-eagle wrote: »

Seriously, I personally have no anger to politicans and bankers. All this talk of Fat cats, corrupt etc etc anyone else sick of it.

Yes.

legal-eagle

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Out and out Troll.

Politicians are elected to legislate.

Instead of legislating they spend their time commissioning reports so they don't have to make decisions. Bring in cost effective construction contracts to keep the sheep happy and refuse to make them mandatory thereby guaranteeing major over spend in public construction contracts that are given to connected parties (Think Jackie Healy Rae's son getting all the new government construction contracts in Kerry)

They deflect blame and take no responsibility and spend most of their time at home doing nixers and backhanders to get re-elected all the while paying themselves many many many times the average industrial wage and unvouched expenses thereby insulating themselves from average people and their problems.

They sit 96 days of the year-- do not sit on mondays or fridays and claim insane expenses, for example they are given 50 euro walking around money.

Bankers are no better. They pay themselves millions in bonuses and then engage in reckless lending, trading and proping up developers and hiking the price of property in this country to levels that ordinary people cannot get a loan. They they rely on our curropt politicans to wade in with our public money and extract no concessions to ensure these bankers actually start lending again and moving their primary responsibility to the shareholders who have just gotten burned when they spend 16 euro per share.

People like you, and your views have led to the proliferation and curruption of this country, inch by inch. Charlie robbing us blind, Bertie the Minister for finance with no bank account and and debts forgiven by the banks when he became Taoiseach. Your lack or anger, action or concern while we are all being financially raped ensures that there will be no Ireland left for our children to inherit. Enjoy emigration sir where you will still have no opinion but this time as a non national you will also have no say.

People like me? What have people like YOU done about it? You and everyone else like you had your say in the last election. I won't be blaming the Irish government for the global credit collapse. In fairness I do remember Bertie Ahern leaving his own Mother's funeral early so he could push the Good Friday Agreement ahead, you wouldn't hear too much fanfare about the likes of that.

I'm sure there is the same level of corruption in politics as there is in every other industry.

Joey the lips

We cannot search at the moment. If my momory serves me the op was pulled for trolling already. Not to much of a bother to me but the post has absolutly no possiblity of generating a response because its a rant!

Sorry!

Joey the lips

prinz wrote: »

Yes.

+1 thread closed. Practiceing to be a mod!

20goto10

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

They may work their b0ll1x off but usually only on local political stuff to keep their voters happy so they will be reelected. They use government/taxpayers resources to ensure their reelection in a given constituency.

Also German, French and British politicians work just as hard and get a LOT less pay/pensions.

Lol Irish politicians are the only corrupt politicians.

I agree with the op to some extent. There isn't a self employed person in the country who doesn't stretch their expenses to the max. And believe me it can be stretched a long way whilst staying within the law. The problem is not the people, it's the system. We just have to see now if the pressure stays on to change the system. But it's not an easy thing to do.

Liam Byrne

20goto10 wrote: »

There isn't a self employed person in the country who doesn't stretch their expenses to the max.

Assuming, of course, there's cash coming in with which to do that. Not all of us have the ability to screw a few taxpayers in order to get extra cash in our wallets.

Plus, why are you using the self-employed as the comparison ? Those in the Dail are OUR EMPLOYEES.

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Assuming, of course, there's cash coming in with which to do that. Not all of us have the ability to screw a few taxpayers in order to get extra cash in our wallets.

Plus, why are you using the self-employed as the comparison ? Those in the Dail are OUR EMPLOYEES.

For taxation purposes they are self employed. They are answerable to us. A bit like a plumber is self employed and is answerable to us for his work

Likewish many plubers try and turn an air lock into an expensive trip to the plumbers providers and 2 days work usually requiring 2 people;)

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

For taxation purposes they are self employed.

Then that needs to be changed.

Also, most self-employed people don't get paid for days that they are not working; how come TDs get paid for the other 260-odd days ?

Joey the lips wrote: »

They are answerable to us.

Wishful thinking.

Also, the plumber doesn't set his own rate, because you can decide whether to hire him or someone else.

Finally, the plumber doesn't shaft you and reduce your take-home pay while still trying to get paid the same amount themselves.

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Then that needs to be changed.


Finally, the plumber doesn't shaft you and reduce your take-home pay while still trying to get paid the same amount themselves.

True! For some reasom batt o keaffee and his education cuts comes to mind here!

TJJP

prinz wrote: »

Yes.

No

Absurdum

legal-eagle wrote: »

Seriously, I personally have no anger to politicans and bankers. All this talk of Fat cats, corrupt etc etc anyone else sick of it. Politicans by and large work their boll0x of particlurarly leaders of the country. They don't exactly make a million quid a year and get grief all the time, I wouldn't even begrudge them taking a bung here and there......so what. The worst thing is most people have no understanding of the global international credit crisis or even national politics yet are the loudest critics.

sup Bertie? Played a blinder on Late Late! Pint of Bass is on it's way to you buddy.

johnnyskeleton

legal-eagle wrote: »

Seriously, I personally have no anger to politicans and bankers.

Your personal emotions are your own.

legal-eagle wrote: »

All this talk of Fat cats, corrupt etc etc anyone else sick of it.

I'm sick of glib descriptions of the very real corruption that is systemic in our society.

legal-eagle wrote: »

Politicans by and large work their boll0x of particlurarly leaders of the country.

Just for your information, if you want to make a serious argument, don't curse; if you want to vent your spleen, curse all you like.

I take it you are saying that politicians by and large work hard, particularly the leaders of the country. If so, I disagree, and I would the stories of our Taoiseach's drinking would counter that. But also, don't forget that most of our politicians are earning a significant amount of money for doing very little work. I'd do the exact same if I were a politician, so I can't say it is immoral per se, but just that it is a very inefficient use of taxpayer's money.

legal-eagle wrote: »

They don't exactly make a million quid a year and get grief all the time, I wouldn't even begrudge them taking a bung here and there......so what.

Steal a little, you go to jail; steal big, everyone loves you. I don't trust them an inch.

legal-eagle wrote: »

The worst thing is most people have no understanding of the global international credit crisis or even national politics yet are the loudest critics.

Mary Hannafin when on the panel on primetime suggested that short selling was when people bought stock and sold it after a short period of time. If you asked Brian Lenihan to explain why the Yen carry trade catalysted the credit crunch in the US he would be lost for words. I am very concerned that my limited understanding of economics is superior to every TD and I don't say that boastfully, but rather as a matter of fact. My understanding of economics is rudimentary at best, but our politicians haven't a clue. Except George Lee TD and Senator Shane Ross.

legal-eagle wrote: »

I'm quite indifferent to it all, the Lisbon Treaty is another example. How many of these voters really care about Ireland's involvement in Europe

What you fail to understand is a basic concept of democracy; that if the people don't really care about Ireland's involvement in Europe then they will express that indifference in the referendum.

legal-eagle wrote: »

does it really affect their day to day lives....most of the "No" voters (I know) reasons for not voting were pathetic and so inaccurate. Discuss

I know people who voted no for very credible reasons, and I know people who voted yes for the most scurrilous reasons. So generalising doesn't put the matter any further.

johnnyskeleton

legal-eagle wrote: »

People like me? What have people like YOU done about it?

People like who?

legal-eagle wrote: »

You and everyone else like you had your say in the last election.

Yes, and the fact that the people who voted FF now regret it speaks volumes.

legal-eagle wrote: »

I won't be blaming the Irish government for the global credit collapse.

No-one blames them for that, and saying otherwise is disingenuous. But they are entirely to blame for the mismanagement of government funds over the last 12 years and they are also to blame for failing to deal with the domestic property bubble.

In fairness I do remember Bertie Ahern leaving his own Mother's funeral early so he could push the Good Friday Agreement ahead, you wouldn't hear too much fanfare about the likes of that.

legal-eagle wrote: »

I'm sure there is the same level of corruption in politics as there is in every other industry.

Corruption in the public finances is not the same as corruption in a private sector roll. Surely that's obvious?

johnnyskeleton

Joey the lips wrote: »

+1 thread closed. Practiceing to be a mod!

Sorry, but an impeccable ability to spell is a fundamental requirement for the job.

Joey the lips

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sorry, but an impeccable ability to spell is a fundamental requirement for the job.

True

Butt f u no wat i mean u get de message! Or as I am fond of saying if you understand the correction you understand the word. All you have achieved is changing the subject but seen as though you started.

Where did you obtain your degree in arrogance? I have no doubt your job suits the education!

20goto10

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Assuming, of course, there's cash coming in with which to do that. Not all of us have the ability to screw a few taxpayers in order to get extra cash in our wallets.

Plus, why are you using the self-employed as the comparison ? Those in the Dail are OUR EMPLOYEES.

It wasn't a direct comparison. But a self employed person has a choice to pay his taxes in full or he can spend it and put it down as an expense. Most people think it's better to spend it on yourself than give it to the tax man. My point is everyone is at it and there is nothing illegal about it. John o' donoghue actually did nothing wrong. Not one rule broken, not one law broken. That's because the system allows it. And the system is not unique to Ireland.

skirish

There were so dodgy things going on during the Lisbon Treaty vote. An 82 year old person who voted in the last one was denied a vote. No reason given. For some reason they could not find my name either.
Anyway now we can really take government and pseudo government departments who are contravening people's rights to the European Commission. !

bauderline

legal-eagle wrote: »

People like me? What have people like YOU done about it? You and everyone else like you had your say in the last election. I won't be blaming the Irish government for the global credit collapse. In fairness I do remember Bertie Ahern leaving his own Mother's funeral early so he could push the Good Friday Agreement ahead, you wouldn't hear too much fanfare about the likes of that.

I'm sure there is the same level of corruption in politics as there is in every other industry.

blame for the global economic crisis... no ....

blame for the irish economic crisis.... yes....

The policies of the current government are the primary cause of the property bubble in this country, which in turn is the primary cause of our banking crisis, which in turn has caused many other problems such as negative equity, job losses, massive personal debt, lack of credit to small businesses etc etc.

I have two main gripes with the government of the past decade...

1. They failed to regulate the banking sector in order to prevent the massive property bubble and subsequent crash. It is plainly obvious that the banks and Anglo in particular were out of control. It should have been picked up on and something done about it, moreover they were warned about it by numerous persons of note. The warnings were brushed aside.

2. The social partnership fiasco is just as bad as the above if not worse. This has given rise to a vastly overpaid and overstaffed public service. It was nothing more than an economic "doodey" for the unions for the last ten years. The government looked at the figures and decided they had the money and it was a easy way to keep the unions quiet and keep that feel good factor alive in the country.

Whatever else may be said about political corruption and who well paid TD's are and how hard they work it is really a side show to the above policies which has led Ireland to the disastrous situation it nows finds itself in.

For sure our government must be held accountable for their failed policies, that is a given !

lugha

I would have some sympathy with the OPs view in the sense that I don't personally feel any great anger to politicians or bankers. I consider the former to be a very demanding job, one that I would not do. As far as greed and corruption goes, well I honestly think that that is part of our culture. Not political culture, culture. Any of use who dabbled small time in the property market didn't baulk at accepting massive mark ups on a site or property bought for investment even if that meant crippling the buyer with a 40 year mortgage. Even with such a massive profit, many of use would duck and dive and try to avoid paying capital gains, often doing so only because of a fear of getting caught, not out of any sense of right or wrong. And of course there are the cash payments to trades men which almost none of us have any difficulty with. Now, I know of course that some will say, paying your window cleaner cash isn't in the same league as knocking out €500 K in expenses. But it is hard to escape the conclusion that most of use do not engage in greed and tax evasion on a big scale, not because of any great principles, but because we do not have the opportunity. I would love to see a political system where those that behaved badly were held to account, but held to account by the people. If John O' Donoghue has to run for the Dail next time around, we all know he will almost certainly succeed, and if he doesn't, it will not be because of his expenses “issues”. And the same would happen in any constituency. And while that remains the case, we will continue to get the politicians we deserve.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Joey the lips wrote:

They are answerable to us

Wishful thinking.

Also, the plumber doesn't set his own rate, because you can decide whether to hire him or someone else.

.

Well, actually they are answerable to us insofar as once every 5 years (often more frequent) they have to reapply for their jobs and we decide whether or not to reemploy them based on their performance. Where else in society do you have such a brutal performance management system ! And yes, of course we decide whether to hire him or someone else. In most constituencies we get to choose between up to about 10 different people for the job, plus we get the opportunity to throw our own hats in the ring if we so desire.

It is for these reasons that I do agree with the overall message the OP is putting across (if not all the detail). Of course it is not OK for them to take bungs and fiddle expenses. . thats just silly ! But I'm a bit fed up of all this talk of politicians who do no work and get paid way too much money. I work in the private sector, I usually work about 50-60 hours a week and I often travel at the weekends in order to be in a different part of the world on Monday morning but I do not believe that I work harder than most politicians. I certainly don't work harder than those in cabinet. . How often have you heard a certain minister debating an argument on Morning Ireland at 7am and then continuing the same debate on Prime Time or Vincent Brown later that evening. I have direct access to my poiticians every Saturday in various clinics spread all around my constituency. . how many of us in the private sector do that as a matter of routine !

And how many of us give up well paid jobs in the Private Sector in order to earn less money, face public criticism and have to reapply for our positions once every 4-5 years.

Brian Lenihan could be earning 3 or 4 times his current wage, working half his hours if he had remained as a practicing barrister. By all means attack his policies, attack the expenses system but don't attack the work ethic. These guys work harder longer hours than most of us !

Mr. Incognito

People like me? What have people like YOU done about it? You and everyone else like you had your say in the last election. I won't be blaming the Irish government for the global credit collapse. In fairness I do remember Bertie Ahern leaving his own Mother's funeral early so he could push the Good Friday Agreement ahead, you wouldn't hear too much fanfare about the likes of that.

I'm sure there is the same level of corruption in politics as there is in every other industry.

What have I done about it- the only thing I can - Vote.

no-one is blaming the Irish government for the global credit collapse but you must have not even a passing knowledge of simple economics to actually swallow that line that all of Ireland's woes are to blame on the global credit crunch.

We have had a property bubble in this country that had billions flowing into the coffers of the Irish government- money they blew on construction contracts that over ran not 10% or 15% but up to 100 % and 200% (Think of the Port Tunnel) The government and Charlie McCreevy's response was to curry popular support by reducing taxation and hiking public expenditure to unsustainable levels in the public sector. The HSE was formed and NOT ONE person was let go in the old Health Boards, probably the biggest swindle the Unions have pulled over this government who didn't have the backbone to stand up to them. By far the biggest public expense is the public sector wages and these people have a shock coming in the budget.

Anglo, with its predatory lending practises led to a race to the bottom and what happens- we bail Anglo out to the tune of 5 billion. This bank that was supposedly vital to the Irish economy hasn't lent a red cent since September 2007- go figure that one out.

Anyway- I'm not going into all that because it's going to take too ling if I go down this road, I'll focus on one key point that actually sickens me about your attitude.

You don't care if they take bungs and you believe that politics is no more corrupt than any other profession. You sir are sadly mistaken. The thing that came out in the tribunals that sickened me- was not that councellors were being paid off but how little their integrity was worth. They rezoned land that made developers millions for as little as 2000 euro at a time. This has led to the unplanned, unserviced wasteland of suburbs that I feel will lead to huge social problems in the next ten years as the kids that live on these vast estates having no where to kick a ball turn to drugs and unsocial behaviour. Idle hands do the devils work.

Finally as a professional and a solicitor, your handle, legal eagle worries me. I would hope that someone who professes not to care about people lining their own pockets at the publics expense is not entrusted with said monies. Seeing the unethical practises of some solicitors out there sickens me and I hope these people are stuck off at the earliest opportunity. There are levels of greed in this country that have sprung up with the celtic tiger that are truly horrific.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

we decide whether or not to reemploy them based on their performance.

Ideally, this would be the case. But unfortunately - with people defending the indefensible (and if the cap fits, etc.....) they are not reemployed based on their performance; they are reemployed based on dynasties, being "cute hoors", being "one of the people" (or at least working hard to appear to be).

In addition, if their performance involves doing something right, they take credit; if it involves screwing up spectacularly, then it's because - as Ahern alluded to last night - the "expertise" wasn't there, or "the rules weren't changed", or "Lehman Bros".

In all of this, there's one UNDENIABLE fact; the ONLY people who can change the rules are those in the Dail, and they don't. Why ? Because it suits them, and because it gives them an out and deniability when they screw up.

Why - for example - are outlandish expenses only being dealt with NOW; while all of us had to take a wallop in a Budget A YEAR AGO ? Plus a SECOND wallop in an extra, unwarranted Budget 6 MONTHS AGO ? Plus - despite the damage to the economy and the supposed "urgency" - a 4 month holiday while the country racked up a phenomenal rate of debt per day, with banks refusing to lend and businesses going to the wall, adding to the dole queue ?

If votes are "performance related", then the Greens and FF deserve a very large boot, and the sooner the better.....