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Gerry Adams for President
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Well dlofnep didn't give a satisfactory explanation why Adams as SF leader does not censor those within his party who refer to the state as the 26 counties or who decline to condemn the murder of the defenders of the state. So you can have a crack at that one if you want?Your other point, about how could Ireland have a 'head of state' that does not recognise that state, is also moot, since Adams clearly recognises the states on this island, as evidenced by the current political process.
EDIT: dlofnep beat me to it!
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Well dlofnep didn't give a satisfactory explanation why Adams as SF leader does not censor those within his party who refer to the state as the 26 counties or who decline to condemn the murder of the defenders of the state. So you can have a crack at that one if you want?
Censor? I've already explained quite categorically that the term 26 counties is a term used to highlight the partition of this island. It has absolutely nothing to do with accepting that for now, two states exist - with SF operating and supporting each institution. Let's not forget - you are against the idea of Irish Unity, I am for it. It therefore makes sense to see the partition of the country as a temporary measure, while you wish to see it as a permanent measure. That's the difference, and the real issue on why we are colliding on the topic.
If SF did not support the institutions, then they would not have supported the GFA. Not to mention policing in the north, which they supported despite knowing that they would lose votes because of it.
As for Jerry McCabe - It's a regrettable loss, and I think it's a valid point to bring up the issue. Gerry Adams stated that it was reprehensible - he is under no illusions that it was wrong, and obviously wishes that it never happened. If you have an issue with Toiréasa's lack of condemnation about the issue - why don't you get in contact with her and find out exactly why. She's only a phone-call or an e-mail away.0 -
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I think you will find that pretty much ALL Unionist say NI is part of Britain!Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »Loads of people say "the south" or "the 26 counties", Saying "Ireland" up here causes confusion because a lot of unionists actually say northern ireland is part of britain.
I suspect you are unfamiliar with Sinn Fein speak. There are a number of phrases and expressions Sinn Fein use (more so in the past than now) which appear to the casual listener to have a pretty benign meaning or no meaning at all. Perhaps the most frequently heard example in the bad old days arose when a Sinn Fein leader were asked if they condemn some IRA atrocity. Their reply invariably was “we condemn all violence” or “all loss if life is regrettable”. To someone who knew no better, that was a perfectly proper and measured response. But we all knew (and republicans in particular knew) that that was code for “no, we do not condemn it”. I challenge you to find a single instance from the troubles where a Sinn Fein representative used the word “condemn” in a specific response to an IRA action (in fairness to Adams, he does now use the term in relation to dissident republican activities although many in the lower ranks of SF including Ms Ferris will not) Do you think they have some aversion to that particular word? Of course not. But everybody understands that if a republican were to condemn a particular republican action then they really do condemn it. And it is something similar with references to “the 26 counties” or “the six counties”. In Sinn Fein speak, these expressions are used, not as alternative labels as one might refer to “the north” or “the south”. They explicitly are used to convey the message that they do not fully recognize either state. If you think this is just pettiness can you explain why you it is difficult to find a Sinn Fein web site that uses the terms “Northern Ireland” and “The Republic of Ireland”. If there are no hidden meaning to these terms why are Sinn Fein so averse to using them? I think some republicans would quite readily admit all of this to you. Perhaps dlofnep is genuinely unaware of all of this but I somehow doubt it.Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »If he referred to the north as the "occupied counties" on a regular basis I could see your point, but you're just making a silly point to have a petty go at Gerry.
And all of this is relevant to the OP question. Anybody who does not fully recognize and give their allegiance to any state has no business seeking to be its head.0 -
Sinn Féin speak :rolleyes:I suspect you are unfamiliar with Sinn Fein speak. There are a number of phrases and expressions Sinn Fein use (more so in the past than now) which appear to the casual listener to have a pretty benign meaning or no meaning at all. Perhaps the most frequently heard example in the bad old days arose when a Sinn Fein leader were asked if they condemn some IRA atrocity. Their reply invariably was “we condemn all violence” or “all loss if life is regrettable”. To someone who knew no better, that was a perfectly proper and measured response. But we all knew (and republicans in particular knew) that that was code for “no, we do not condemn it”. I challenge you to find a single instance from the troubles where a Sinn Fein representative used the word “condemn” in a specific response to an IRA action (in fairness to Adams, he does now use the term in relation to dissident republican activities although many in the lower ranks of SF including Ms Ferris will not) Do you think they have some aversion to that particular word? Of course not. But everybody understands that if a republican were to condemn a particular republican action then they really do condemn it. And it is something similar with references to “the 26 counties” or “the six counties”. In Sinn Fein speak, these expressions are used, not as alternative labels as one might refer to “the north” or “the south”. They explicitly are used to convey the message that they do not fully recognize either state. If you think this is just pettiness can you explain why you it is difficult to find a Sinn Fein web site that uses the terms “Northern Ireland” and “The Republic of Ireland”. If there are no hidden meaning to these terms why are Sinn Fein so averse to using them? I think some republicans would quite readily admit all of this to you. Perhaps dlofnep is genuinely unaware of all of this but I somehow doubt it.
And all of this is relevant to the OP question. Anybody who does not fully recognize and give their allegiance to any state has no business seeking to be its head.
You're inferring what you will.
The SDLP also try to avoid using the terms 'Northern Ireland' and 'Republic of Ireland'. Are they refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of those states? I suppose if that was the case, they'd be refusing their own legitimacy too.0 -
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I think you will find that pretty much ALL Unionist say NI is part of Britain!
Its part of the UK and geographically part of the island of Ireland. However due to the fact that their nationality is British, some Unionists say its part of Britain, which is in fact the big island to the right.I suspect you are unfamiliar with Sinn Fein speak. There are a number of phrases and expressions Sinn Fein use (more so in the past than now) which appear to the casual listener to have a pretty benign meaning or no meaning at all. Perhaps the most frequently heard example in the bad old days arose when a Sinn Fein leader were asked if they condemn some IRA atrocity. Their reply invariably was “we condemn all violence” or “all loss if life is regrettable”. To someone who knew no better, that was a perfectly proper and measured response. But we all knew (and republicans in particular knew) that that was code for “no, we do not condemn it”. I challenge you to find a single instance from the troubles where a Sinn Fein representative used the word “condemn” in a specific response to an IRA action (in fairness to Adams, he does now use the term in relation to dissident republican activities although many in the lower ranks of SF including Ms Ferris will not) Do you think they have some aversion to that particular word? Of course not. But everybody understands that if a republican were to condemn a particular republican action then they really do condemn it. And it is something similar with references to “the 26 counties” or “the six counties”. In Sinn Fein speak, these expressions are used, not as alternative labels as one might refer to “the north” or “the south”. They explicitly are used to convey the message that they do not fully recognize either state. If you think this is just pettiness can you explain why you it is difficult to find a Sinn Fein web site that uses the terms “Northern Ireland” and “The Republic of Ireland”. If there are no hidden meaning to these terms why are Sinn Fein so averse to using them? I think some republicans would quite readily admit all of this to you. Perhaps dlofnep is genuinely unaware of all of this but I somehow doubt it.
And all of this is relevant to the OP question. Anybody who does not fully recognize and give their allegiance to any state has no business seeking to be its head.
I suspect you have never lived here. As I was saying its used by nationalists and unionists to avoid ambiguity. Its not in the same league as "all deaths are regrettable"0 -
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