Human Dissection

mardybumbum

sam34 wrote: »

with scumbags and knackers, it's different. there is no mental illness causing them to do what they do.

It may not be a mental illness that causes them to do what they do, but their behavior has been reinforced/conditioned from a very young age, right?
I may not have stated it clearly in my previous post but what I was trying to ask was why people who are born with "troubled" behaviour are treated more favourably than those whose behavior has developed from a very young age?

finally, i dont see what you mean about there being patients in psych units whose sole aim is to cause trouble??

Its just that in your previous post you said that you could tolerate being attacked by a psych patient because they do it out of genuine fears. Would you meet any patients whose sole intent is to cause harm?

sam34

mardybumbum wrote: »

It may not be a mental illness that causes them to do what they do, but their behavior has been reinforced/conditioned from a very young age, right?
I may not have stated it clearly in my previous post but what I was trying to ask was why people who are born with "troubled" behaviour are treated more favourably than those whose behavior has developed from a very young age?

i suppose it comes down to what is and isnt under your control. those who are behaving that way because it is just something they've always done, and because it works for them, are able to control that behaviour. they know it isnt normal acceptable behaviour but they continue to do it, they dont give a ****. if someone grows up in a family where the parents are criminals, and they turn out to be a criminal themselves, they are still responsible in a court of law. its teh same principle, just on a less extreme level.

mardybumbum wrote: »

Its just that in your previous post you said that you could tolerate being attacked by a psych patient because they do it out of genuine fears. Would you meet any patients whose sole intent is to cause harm?

well, yeah , i would see people like this. i think you're getting at people who have no mental illness as such, but who are just "bad" - those who are psychopaths. thankfully, they make a small proportion of psych patients, and the general aim would be to keep them out of the service and hospitals in particular.

i think i've answered your question? if not, let me know!

mardybumbum

sam34 wrote: »

i think i've answered your question? if not, let me know!

Thanks for responding, but I guess its impossible to really answer my question. Seems like a huge grey area. Anyway, we digress.

Back to dissections.
My anatomy project this year is on the contents of the orbit. I am going to need to remove the eyeball. Whats the best way to perform an enucleation?
I need to try and preserve as many of the muscles as possible.
I was thinking of boring a hole through the supra orbital fissure wide enough for my pinky and then popping it out.
Has anyone here ever done this before?

candlegrease

mardybumbum wrote: »

Thanks for responding, but I guess its impossible to really answer my question. Seems like a huge grey area. Anyway, we digress.

I would say they are treated differently because you would have to change their whole culture and way of life to change their behaviour. Sure if you helped one "scumbag" he might get it for a few days but eventually he would be roped back into his "behavioural problems" unless he was removed from the influence of other "scumbags" completely, and even then nothing is guaranteed.

So ya, I think they have behavioural problems like other cases, but they are just not as treatable, and besides, if you did one scumbag, you would have to do them all and good luck with that! :P

Prime Mover

mardybumbum wrote: »

Back to dissections.
My anatomy project this year is on the contents of the orbit. I am going to need to remove the eyeball. Whats the best way to perform an enucleation?
I need to try and preserve as many of the muscles as possible.
I was thinking of boring a hole through the supra orbital fissure wide enough for my pinky and then popping it out.
Has anyone here ever done this before?

If you are getting out the power tools I think you should leave the eyeball in place and take out a triangle of bone from the floor of the anterior cranial fossa. Look at Netter 4th ed plates 85/86 on the Orbit and contents. Scoop out the retrobulbar fat to expose the nerves, muscles and vessels. On the second eye, maybe you could just remove the tarsi and orbital septa for a different angle.

clartharlear

Fascinating thread.

With regard to the inappropriate comments (which I did not read, and I'm sure they were rightfully removed), I see two interesting aspects.
Firstly, the use of black humour, unto obnoxious remarks, as a coping and distancing mechanism for medical students first encountering human dissection. Secondly, the psychology of the "in-joke" and the strong taboo on breaking the bounds of the in-circle. Posting publicly on-line violates the bond of the blackly-humorous in-jokes and falls under the remit of "what you would say to the family", but I do believe there should be different rules on "what you could say to a fellow medic".

I don't have a subscription to the BMJ, but it looks like there are a few interesting papers on similar topics.

virtus

I have been doing dissections for a couple of weeks now and I have to say that everyone acts with respect and professionalism. I was actually quite surprised, as I am usually used to people dossing around chemistry labs. When someone has made such a sacrifice for your education you are going to make the most of the opportunity they have given you, and it seems that most students who have the luck to work with cadavars think likewise. I think its more disrespectful to not use your time with the cadaver well, or to hinder those who are trying to.

With regard to feeling queasy, I had my first experience of it today. Lets just say my lab coat was rather smelly from the week before.

Would many people here consider donating their body?

imported_guy

how are the cadavers obtained btw?, and are they ever returned to their famlies for burial etc?, do they use new cadavers every week/month/year? do the college pay for them? to the family etc?

Larianne

imported_guy wrote: »

how are the cadavers obtained btw?, and are they ever returned to their famlies for burial etc?, do they use new cadavers every week/month/year? do the college pay for them? to the family etc?

People decide to donate their bodies for medical research/training. They ring up the university and they are then talked through the process and sign a form. When they die it's made known that they are donor bodies and the relevant college is notified. The body get embalmed at the university and I think they cannot be used for a while... the cadavers I'm working on are 2 years old. I think the ones we're working on will be for the whole year. The college doesn't pay for them as they are donated. But the college provides the burial for them.

(That's what I gathered from my first day in anatomy but I could be wrong on some points.)

drkpower

tallaght01 wrote: »

When posting about dissections, try and imagine the person's family finding the thread before you say what you are going to say.

Interesting discussion.
While I can see the difficulty when someone who is clearly a present student at a specific medschool (and has identified that previously) comments (negatively or perjoratively) about dissections, I wonder whether the reality of dissection (and how students approach it) shouldnt be a matter for honest and robust discussion on sites such as this.

Certainly there is a possibility that a family member of someone who gave their body for dissection might seee and be offended by such a discussion. But the issue is surely worthy of a warts and all discussion (particularly in a forum like this) even if it might appear distasteful at times. I would have thought that the opinions of people like yourself would be helpful to those going through the process now who maybe dont realise the debt they owe the donators. I certainly recall that I had a fairly relaxed and immmature attitude to dissection when I was an undergraduate and probably could have done with a forum like this at the time!

Piste

^well said!


I was in the anatomy room studying for the anatomy test we had on friday and some people were in there removing craniums(crania?) with saws for the 2nd year anatomy practicals. I noticed a weird smell in the place but didn't think too much about it until one of the guys I was studying with said "I think that's the bone bust we're smelling". Suddenly it went from being a tolerable smell, to being the most disgusting thing I'd ever encountered, it's a horrible idea that you're inhaling somebody's bones (albeit tiny particles). Then later that day when I'd been out of the anatomy room for hours I noticed the smell had clung to my hair.

It was an experience to say the least!

Actually, out of interest, a guy in my anatomy group and I were wondering could any health issues arise from inhaling bone dust? Probably not for us as we were a few metres away from the bodies, but for the people using the saws who were right up close? They weren't wearing masks or anything.

GradMed

There is no issue with having a “warts and all discussion”, there is simply an issue with some of the language used.

tallaght01

Yea I certainly had an immature attitude to it all when I was an undergrad, but I needed someone to tell me it wasn't acceptable.

I think our duty to show the public that we have respect for donors of bodies is greater than our duty to encourage students to say what they like about those donors.

sam34

i think nearly all students underestimate the huge sacrifice made by the donors.

when you consider the cultural beliefs here about death, the after-life, sanctity of the body and soul etc, it is a phenomenal thing for someone to donate their body to further the education of complete strangers.

it is one of the most, if not the most, altruistic thing i can think of.

as such, the donors deserve major respect, as do their families. remember, the families have been denied the ritual of burial and having a grave to visit, both of which aid in teh grieving process.

distasteful, flippant comments have no place in any discussion about such people. they are not just cadavers lying on tables, they are peopel with families, loved ones and histories.

i know, and remember well, that human dissection is a hard thing to do, and that as a coping strategy people try and distance tehmselves form the human side of it. thats ok, while you're around teh table actually dissecting. but, imo, it's not ok outside of the DR and certainly not ok in casual discussions. the bigger picture should never be overlooked.