Laptop djing/button pushers

eeloe

What's everyones views on this?

I know the question has probably been brought up before but I said I'd throw it out there again to get some fresh answers!

Do people think it's acceptable for a Dj to turn up at a gig with a laptop running xponent?

djscubasteve

Honestly, I don't think it even comes into the equation anymore. You'll always have people knocking the use of laptops but personally I reckon that argument is null & void in this day & age. Just look at the technology put into the cdj-2000s! All I'd concern myself with is the tunes the dj's playing.

I use cds myself when playing live but I do use software at home to make my own edits of some tracks. It's so handy for extending or shortening an intro/outro, adding a bar or 2 here & there to get the drops, breakdowns etc. according to how I wanna mix them. Made a big difference to my mixes, allows me a lot more freedom.

A great man once boldly declared, "...coz it's not HOW you do it, but it's WHY you do it..." & to me that sums it up perfectly.:cool:

electrogrimey

djscubasteve wrote: »

All I'd concern myself with is the tunes the dj's playing.

QFT.

I don't understand all this bickering about Vinyl vs CDJs vs Laptops, 90% of the crowd won't even notice what the DJ is using, it's only the 10% of DJ anoraks at the back going "I can't respect this guy if he's using a laptop", everyone else is just listening to the tunes, and the way they're mixing, it shouldn't matter what they're using to do that.

Four-Percent

Yeah, what's wrong with it?

eeloe

Over the years i'v used technics, and cdjs, and about two years ago I sold my cdjs and never bothered replacing them.

Over the last couple of months iv wanted to
get back in to it again, and can't justify spending 1000's on two cd players when a midi controller can do exactly what I need.

I picked up xponent yesterday, and I have to say I'm well impressed with it!

seannash

for me personally djing with a laptop was a bit boring so i stuck with cds.

i dont have a problem with people using laptops but it is getting to a point where were basically just doing nothing but picking the songs and letting the computer worry about everything else.

(cue "picking the songs is the most important part" reply)

acman

seannash wrote: »

but it is getting to a point where were basically just doing nothing but picking the songs and letting the computer worry about everything else.
(cue "picking the songs is the most important part" reply)

True, but a DJ also has to pick where to bring the track in an out of. It's not just about a good tracklist, timing is another "human-only" factor.

It really, really, really, doesnt matter what technology you use to mix with. The only way you can honestly judge any DJ is by what comes out of the speakers...everything before that is just personal preference.

seannash

acman wrote: »

True, but a DJ also has to pick where to bring the track in an out of. It's not just about a good tracklist, timing is another "human-only" factor.

It really, really, really, doesnt matter what technology you use to mix with. The only way you can honestly judge any DJ is by what comes out of the speakers...everything before that is just personal preference.

technically not true.in ableton you set it up to fire off the tracks at 8/16 or 32 beat intervals.so you can press the launch button whenever the hell you want and itll play at exactly the begining of the bar.


as for what comes out of the speaker being the only way to judge it used to be the only way.
now you can go back in and erase bad mixes,make adjustments for leveling issues etc.so if someone handed you a demo it might not be what hell sound like live.the original recording could be riddled with mistakes that were happily edited out.

live on the other hand is different but there still is room for deceipt.
anyway
im not saying that everyone who uses a laptop cheats just pointing out it is possible to do it:D

Jev/N

This topic has been done to death before but anyway...

Personally I use Serato, use the vinyls at home and the cds elsewhere.

I don't really have a problem with laptop or controller djs as long as they're not staring at a screen for the whole night (the issue is crowd reading more so) or making use of sync or whatever without layering loops/acapellas with the time saved.

Different strokes and all that. As djscubasteve said, it's the tunes that count

jtsuited

ok first off look at the list of all these chancers!!

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/traktor-pro/?page=216

Good few of the best dj's going (imo) in that list.

Secondly, what really really pisses me off is hearing certain local djs in certain clubs trainwreck every second mix and not get one perfect the whole night. Especially when I've heard said dj's harp on about the 'cheating laptop dj's'. Either do something right or don't do it at all.

Some people like using cdj's. Some like using traktor. Some like using some sort of hybrid (Serato, Traktor Scratch etc.).

I couldn't care less what people use once the mixing is up to scratch (no pun intended) and they actually focus on the real art of djing namely:

1. forging a coherent sound and flow in their track selection, being able to stick a bit of their personality onto that selection.

2. Reading a crowd while still remaining true to their sound.

3. Getting a crowd going with unfamiliar music. This is the biggest difference between the bedroom warriors and the successful guys a lot of the time.

4. Being able to mix art and fun in equal measures.

5. Being on the frontline of new music, weeding out the rubbish and being a tastemaker.

The above endeavours require actual talent, musicality, balls, and artistic aptitude.

Whereas any old eejit can learn to beatmatch (hell I've even got the hang of cdj's lately).

electrogrimey

I don't really have a problem with a DJ using sync really, it's not that hard to learn to beatmatch, and in reality (hopefully) most laptop DJs started out on decks, Richie Hawtin etc, and have already proved they can beatmatch, so I'd prefer DJs to save the 2 minutes it takes to beatmatch, and use that time to look up at the crowd, or make the mix that nit nicer. I don't however agree with the young lads who come along with midi and can't beatmatch, and if the sync button broke they wouldn't know what to do.

Scubadevils

Without doubt its about the music so the format used to deliver shouldn't be in question.

Trial/demo version of Traktor on the download, looking forward to trying but I see you only get 30 mins a session!

jtsuited

Felixdhc wrote: »

Without doubt its about the music so the format used to deliver shouldn't be in question.

Trial/demo version of Traktor on the download, looking forward to trying but I see you only get 30 mins a session!

STEP AWAY FROM THE CREDIT CARD!

Scubadevils

jtsuited wrote: »

STEP AWAY FROM THE CREDIT CARD!

The credit card has already stepped away from me!

jtsuited

Felixdhc wrote: »

The credit card has already stepped away from me!

haha know the feeling!

tman

I personally find cdjs a lot more fun to use than either vinyl or any application I've tried out, but that doesn't mean I think less of anybody who uses software... I'm sure my opinion would change if I had a play around with a decent controller
At the end of the day I don't really give a crap what equipment someone is using, so long as the music is good and mixing isn't a total train wreck...

Get stuck into it eeloe

dubsbhoy

I've only started touching off all the digitial stuff and at the start i did feel like i was cheating now i'm quite happy to push buttons but mostly cos i'm a lazy fat bastard.

All joking aside i miss the feel of vinyl but must admit the software has a lot to offer, although i'm still trying to get my head round most of it

Zascar

Just under 10 years ago when CDJ's came on the scene all the Vinyl enthusiasts went bananas saying its cheating and its not the same bla bla bla, but several years later CDJ's replaced 1210's as the standard, and Vinyl pusists then became the minority. Seveal of my friends ate their words and switched to CDJ's after swearing that Vinyl was the one and only way to mix music.

Now CDJ's are being replaced by software and controllers and its the same silly stories flying around. The wax heads used the sound quality arguement for ages but it just does not stand up any longer.

For me and I assume many others, its a faily simple decision based upon a cost/effort/ability analysis. Quite simply, I like mixing records but I'm not prepared to pay €10 for one track, or lug heavy records around either. Also, I like mixing on CDJ's but I hate having to mess about with CD's, burning, cataloging etc and deal with skipping on occaision. I like the ability to search all my music on a screen - and then have the options as to my meduim (controller/software etc) as to how I turn what I see on screen into what comes out of the speakers. It Does Not Matter.

The 'Auto Beatmathcing is Cheating' arguement does not hold much weight either. "Beatmatching" is not "DJing" - its about 1% of it - yet a lot of people still need to learn this. Taking this away brings new possibilies which for the audience are a lot more exciting to watching a DJ bring two beats together.

CDJ-2000's are probably the best solution, but they can fuk right off if they think they are going to get 4k out of me for a set of decks!

run_Forrest_run

some intersting points here. I suppose I relate it to my own experience in photography. I started off with a film SLR and I wasn't a big fan of digital image editing until I actually purchased a DSLR and realised that the core technique remains the same no matter what type of equipment you have.

I have a midi controller hooked up to Traktor and yes, I actually use the beat sync button sometimes (OK, a lot of the time!). However I consider myself a total novice and I mess around with it all just purely for fun. I've never mixed for anyone bar myseld (not even the smallest of house parties).

From reading that great book 'How to DJ Properly' I understand there is way more to a DJ than just beat syncing.

However if someone is out there charging people for his/her performance then I expect that person to be competent in all the basics of DJing...but all in all I expect to be on the floor for most the set, otherwise I will be disappointed.

Since I bought my little midi controller and started messing around pretending to be a DJ:) I've gained a whole new level of respect for those hard working DJs, both pro and amateur out there today entertaining us all. Keep it up and who cares if the music's coming from the latest CDJ or a Fisher Price record player received form Santa back in '83...it's all about the music.

electrogrimey

Zascar wrote: »

Just under 10 years ago when CDJ's came on the scene all the Vinyl enthusiasts went bananas saying its cheating and its not the same bla bla bla, but several years later CDJ's replaced 1210's as the standard, and Vinyl pusists then became the minority. Seveal of my friends ate their words and switched to CDJ's after swearing that Vinyl was the one and only way to mix music.

Now CDJ's are being replaced by software and controllers and its the same silly stories flying around. The wax heads used the sound quality arguement for ages but it just does not stand up any longer.

For me and I assume many others, its a faily simple decision based upon a cost/effort/ability analysis. Quite simply, I like mixing records but I'm not prepared to pay €10 for one track, or lug heavy records around either. Also, I like mixing on CDJ's but I hate having to mess about with CD's, burning, cataloging etc and deal with skipping on occaision. I like the ability to search all my music on a screen - and then have the options as to my meduim (controller/software etc) as to how I turn what I see on screen into what comes out of the speakers. It Does Not Matter.

The 'Auto Beatmathcing is Cheating' arguement does not hold much weight either. "Beatmatching" is not "DJing" - its about 1% of it - yet a lot of people still need to learn this. Taking this away brings new possibilies which for the audience are a lot more exciting to watching a DJ bring two beats together.

CDJ-2000's are probably the best solution, but they can fuk right off if they think they are going to get 4k out of me for a set of decks!

Exactly what I would have said, if I had put my post more eloquently.

Daroxtar

I'm one of the few dinosaurs on here who uses only vinyl so i'm climbing right up onto a mighty high pedestal and clearing my throat. Ahemmm hemmmm.

I like to compare the decks to a musical instrument. To me, using a computer to do the beatmatching is like letting the guitar pluck the strings while you just concentrate on the chords.

I dont really care how good you are at Guitar Hero, you're not a guitarist. Ditto Djing. I prefer to be sh1t but honest rather than pretending i can do something but really its the computer doing it.

I see the point about taking 2 minutes to get a track in sync and TBH i kind of disagree. Most vinyl djs would be able to beatmatch in seconds once they've learned the skill. Its the manual handling of the records that takes up more time. If having the computer do the work for you saves that much time then you should be well able to mix loops and samples along with the tracks at a rate of 1 new loop/track starting every 20 seconds or so and have at least 4 tracks running constantly. Some guys do that and to them I give the credit they deserve but its rare to see. Usually its just plain linear 2 track mixing but with the tricky bit being done for you.

Zascar said that beatmatching is only about 1% of it. Thats true but that 1% is like the 1% difference between humans and chimps.

The real art of turntablism is being lost with only the hip hop djs keeping it alive and artists like Claude Young are being forgotten when they should be held in the same breath as virtuoso's like Joe Satriani or Stefan Grapelli. When i see someone on a laptop beat juggle 3 tracks using their elbow and their chin on the touch pad then I'll be convinced. Till then........ NOOOOOOOOO.

Having said all that, I agree completely about the music being the most important thing. If you aint got the tunes and cant read and feed the audience then it doesnt matter how or what you play.



Oh yeah, CDJs are fine.

Executive Steve

Zascar wrote: »

Quite simply, I like mixing records but I'm not prepared to pay €10 for one track, or lug heavy records around either.

You end up with a lot less muck in your record collection when you're paying a tenner a tune though...

leggo

Here's the thing that nobody has pointed out yet:

When technology grows, it gets easier to achieve results that yesterday would've been impressive...

...however, the bar also rises. So to stay on top of the game, to continue to get consistent work in hot spots, you need to raise your own individual game with it.

Because the easier it gets, the more amateurs are going to pick up on it as a hobby, so the more you need to work to remain a cut above the rest.

Output is what matters. Nothing else.

Being a good DJ isn't about beat-matching, it's not neccessarily about song choice, it's not about coming up with 'HAWT' remixes or whatever...

...it's about being whatever the punter needs you to be on any particular, individual night. iTunes will never be able to do that on its own.

Sounds

I found a few topics started on beatportal by so called professional djs
They were badmouthing digital djs for using laptops and software to mix and make digital music

I myself still love to spin my vinyl but it can be costly and you're limited by what's in your record box.
It's nice to be able to download what you want, even while playing live, and still spin it on time coded vinyl.
They're is a difference in doing it this way, you're music sounds better, but you can still get that vinyl sound and feel.
And that really opens up the whole world for my music creation, because you can get sounds faster, on the fly be more unique.

I could never part with my 1210's

On the other hand, i love the fact that technology keeps changing
and you can still mix the latest releases on your turntables using the
likes of Native Instruments - Traktor Scratch, or a cheaper version - Serato

The thing these newbie djs obviously haven't understood is that when roland groove boxes
were one of the most popular ways to make electronic music, they couldn't
function without software, basicaly these guys are talking out of their asses.

And if you're traveling to gigs, and you make quality sounds, then obviously you have your own tools to make your music,
I use ableton and novaion zero sl surface controler if using only digital music, it's great fun, very professional and versitile.
But more ofter i use technics and traktor scratch + ableton and zero sl www.myspace.com/vue3d

The biggest names in the industry, Sasha, Digweed etc, all use software for
their live performances and they're still pulling the large crowds
Nothing like watching a good dj spin a few tunes
It's also cool to see what tools a dj/producer might use at a live gig
Daft Punk have some setup
I'd love to own a Korg zero http://www.korg.co.uk/products/dance_dj/zero/dj_zero.asp

I've allways loved turntables, even years before i heard the Essential mix on bbc radio 1fm on sat nights
When i was 13 i couldn't afford a set of proper decks and had plastic cams for years, i loved them.
But when i saw Sasha for the first time i was hooked on vinyl, but seeing him change from that format to digital was a shock at first.

seannash

i know beatmatching isnt hard when you know how to do it but remember back to when you first got decks(those of you who did own a set).
it was pretty tricky to get to grips with.
much like driving.people say its easy but put someone whos never done it before behind the wheel and see how far they go.

it is a small part of it i agree but to be honest it does give you a good buzz everytime you sync two tracks up manually(i know a few of you wont understand that)

as for the price of cdjs.to be honest if i was at a place in my life where i was settled id have absolutely no problem whatsoever with paying 4 grand for a hobby thatll make me happy for many years to come.
for people who are new to it its alot of money but for anyone who knows that theyll continue to dj even when there "dj career" is over its a drop in the ocean.

anyway yeah the medium is all irrelevent but with all this time you guys are saving by using laptops do something to justify using a laptop.

dont just talk about the possibilities,show us.
dont do a set of a-b mixing because quite frankly you will have more fun djing this way on a set of cdjs or turntables imo

cjpeeton

Well guys ...I think if somebody knows how to mix with CDs and Vinyl , would be a problem to change to laptop .The problem is when a newbie just get a laptop and a lot of music and just go out to play music in a club and that guy has no any idea what is he doing . I saw that a lot of times . Even the guy didn't know how to do the beatmatching ....I see that a lot of times . They just use the sync button on the traktor or whatever and they don't even care if it's wrong with the beats ...It's killing the meaning of the DJ .
I think we won't see tooo much big Dj working with traktor . I just know Richy Hawtin and a few more ..but just imagine . One big Dj like Armin or Tiesto ( am a trance fan ) go just with a laptop and they don't even do anything just push the play button on the laptop . That's crap for me . I wouldn't enjoy it . The Dj WORK suppost to be a show , not just pushing the buttons .
Even with the cdj2000 .....You must have the basic CDJ knowledge to use it . It just has a feature like You can stick in Ur USB drive ...and why ? because as all of You know the CD is not a really safety thing . U just have a few scraches on it and it will skip nearly for sure .One another reason for the USB ......NO MORE CD cases ...Just a little hard drive and that's all .

I won't say the laptop DJing is a bad thing but at least just learn the things before U go out to play and don't make a lot of people crazy with the mistakes .

jtsuited

Daroxtar wrote: »

I'm one of the few dinosaurs on here who uses only vinyl so i'm climbing right up onto a mighty high pedestal and clearing my throat. Ahemmm hemmmm.

I like to compare the decks to a musical instrument. To me, using a computer to do the beatmatching is like letting the guitar pluck the strings while you just concentrate on the chords.

I dont really care how good you are at Guitar Hero, you're not a guitarist. Ditto Djing. I prefer to be sh1t but honest rather than pretending i can do something but really its the computer doing it.

I see the point about taking 2 minutes to get a track in sync and TBH i kind of disagree. Most vinyl djs would be able to beatmatch in seconds once they've learned the skill. Its the manual handling of the records that takes up more time. If having the computer do the work for you saves that much time then you should be well able to mix loops and samples along with the tracks at a rate of 1 new loop/track starting every 20 seconds or so and have at least 4 tracks running constantly. Some guys do that and to them I give the credit they deserve but its rare to see. Usually its just plain linear 2 track mixing but with the tricky bit being done for you.

Zascar said that beatmatching is only about 1% of it. Thats true but that 1% is like the 1% difference between humans and chimps.

The real art of turntablism is being lost with only the hip hop djs keeping it alive and artists like Claude Young are being forgotten when they should be held in the same breath as virtuoso's like Joe Satriani or Stefan Grapelli. When i see someone on a laptop beat juggle 3 tracks using their elbow and their chin on the touch pad then I'll be convinced. Till then........ NOOOOOOOOO.

Having said all that, I agree completely about the music being the most important thing. If you aint got the tunes and cant read and feed the audience then it doesnt matter how or what you play.



Oh yeah, CDJs are fine.

Ok first off, Joe Satriani makes truly awful music, virtuoso or not.

Secondly, if you apply your logic to the musician/dj debate, dj's are nothing but guys playing other people's records at the same speed.

Thirdly, and this is important: If there was a computer program out there that could pluck the strings on a guitar, I'd probably use it if it made my life THAT much easier. And I'm a fairly good guitarist.

It's as simple as this:

20 years ago, vinyl was the primary medium for dance music. To mix properly, you needed to manually beatmatch two vinyl records.

5 years ago, cd was the primary medium for playing dance music. To mix properly you needed to manually beatmatch two cd's in much the same way as vinyl.

Nowadays, computers are so reliable and such an integral part of everyday life, that djing on them is a simple endeavour. Why bother using a simulation of technology from yesteryear when it's merely gesturing?

250 years ago, similar debates raged when Jethro Tull came along. Should we get out and plant crops by hand simply because it takes more skill than using a seed drill?

Should we chase a boar, light a fire and make dinner that way or should we turn on the oven (or heaven forbid, the microwave)?

The whole argument is rather silly tbh.

Sounds

I have to say, i was able to use pitch control on decks when first played them,
Yet i find it difficult to learn to drive, strangly to me, most people can't mix.
I guess it's something you've allready been thinking about long before you had it.
And you're doing a lot of different things at once in your head, reprograming your brain.
I get a total buzz off mixing with mp3's also, especially since i started controling my software with surface controler.
The addition of an audio interface allows you to use your headset so you can do the mixing manualy, with aduio files, fun also.
Now i dont have to just mix vinyl, i can mix and produce and add efx on the fly, that's neat.
Maybe it's only the artists themselfs that think about the fusions of different sounds when they're mixing different sounds together perfectly.
That in itself is a rush!
Seriously though, what's the point in mixing if you don't do it manually, no fun in having a button to do it for you, allthough it's a great aid if you're adding samples, but still, nothing like matching them up in your headset, controling the music with your hands.
I'm not into scratching, that's a different style, im into the art of sound and how to it's created.
You're right, some of the world's top names are getting paid thousands to use beat matching software
Traktor scratch is a great tool, the user can use it to cheat! or aid them in mixing digital music, or they can do it the old fashioned way, with an endless supply of sounds.
Still nothing like watching someone preform with some decks, even if they're intergrated with some tools to make life easier
Adding on other equiptment to create electronic sounds and effects, run your decks through your audio interfaces, love it.
If i was traveling id like to keep it light, laptop, surface controler, traktor scratch for turntables, what a life that would be!
Life is short and music lasts forever, to share that with someone that's never discoered it before is the main thing.
Djs play other people's music, in their own style, or djs ceate their own style from other people's music

If i had the money i'd be running around a studio full of instruments! but im happy to have what i have so far.
I'd love an m-audio digital grand piano

run_Forrest_run

seannash wrote: »

it is a small part of it i agree but to be honest it does give you a good buzz everytime you sync two tracks up manually(i know a few of you wont understand that)

ooh, meeow! saucer of milk for this one

Daroxtar

jtsuited wrote: »

Ok first off, Joe Satriani makes truly awful music, virtuoso or not.

Secondly, if you apply your logic to the musician/dj debate, dj's are nothing but guys playing other people's records at the same speed.

Thirdly, and this is important: If there was a computer program out there that could pluck the strings on a guitar, I'd probably use it if it made my life THAT much easier. And I'm a fairly good guitarist.

It's as simple as this:

20 years ago, vinyl was the primary medium for dance music. To mix properly, you needed to manually beatmatch two vinyl records.

5 years ago, cd was the primary medium for playing dance music. To mix properly you needed to manually beatmatch two cd's in much the same way as vinyl.

Nowadays, computers are so reliable and such an integral part of everyday life, that djing on them is a simple endeavour. Why bother using a simulation of technology from yesteryear when it's merely gesturing?

250 years ago, similar debates raged when Jethro Tull came along. Should we get out and plant crops by hand simply because it takes more skill than using a seed drill?

Should we chase a boar, light a fire and make dinner that way or should we turn on the oven (or heaven forbid, the microwave)?

The whole argument is rather silly tbh.

First point is irrelevant as thats just taste. The same has more than likely been said about Kid Handsome.

Second point is just an echo of what Dickmau5 and a few others who never got the hang of beatmatching say. Proper turntablism is playing an instrument. Beat juggling, scratching, chopping, thats all a form of percussion. Your Decks/CDJs are your drums. There's no skill whatsoever in clicking a button, especially if you can click it whenever you like but the computer makes the sounds come out at a set time.

Thirdly, if you spend your time learning to play the guitar and take a bit of pride in it and then someone comes along with a gadget and lets technology do the work for them you'll never acknowledge them as a guitarist. Ever.

Take the difference between driving a manual car and an automatic. The end result is the same but realistically speaking Automatic cars are for retards who cant master one of the simplest bits so they let the machine do it for them. Thats fine but then what happens if the brakes fail? In a manual car you jus drop it down the gears and take control. In an automatic you either wreck your gearbox trying to do that or you crash.

I'm a carpenter and to me someone who uses a laptop to do the work for them and then calls themselves a DJ is the same as someone who puts together some flatpack furniture and then calls themselves a carpenter. Sure the flat pack makes life easier and you see it everywhere nowadays and any fool can get results from it but at the end of the day its just cheap mass produced sh1t with a plastic veneer.

jtsuited

Daroxtar wrote: »

First point is irrelevant as thats just taste. The same has more than likely been said about Kid Handsome.

Wrong. Satriani is widdler, putting his technical ability to widdle above all else. I'm flattered if anyone thinks I have any sort of technical ability that I'm flaunting over actual aesthetic aptitude. My point was that even though Satriani is a masterful virtuoso, his work lacks pretty much any sort of artistic merit. But that's not the point of satriani is it? (how the fcuk are we talking about satriani anywho).
It's one approach to music, so that's fair enough. But dance music is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Second point is just an echo of what Dickmau5 and a few others who never got the hang of beatmatching say.

Oh really???? I actually got the hang of beatmatching on cdj's in about an hour or two. And there's someone on boards who can vouch for this as he was there.
So that's that point straight out the window. And just so you know where I'm coming from. I play many instruments to a fairly professional level. And the actual technical ability to beatmatch perfectly is NOTHING to write home about compared to learning a musical instrument.

The fact that deadmau5 happens to have said something similar really doesn't discredit what I said at all.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Proper turntablism is playing an instrument. Beat juggling, scratching, chopping, thats all a form of percussion. Your Decks/CDJs are your drums.

Experienced drummer yeah? Turntablism is indeed akin to drumming. Beatmatching isn't. End of story. We're not talking about turntablists here anywho (well maybe you are).

Daroxtar wrote: »

Thirdly, if you spend your time learning to play the guitar and take a bit of pride in it and then someone comes along with a gadget and lets technology do the work for them you'll never acknowledge them as a guitarist. Ever.

Really? Thanks for letting me know who I'll acknowledge as this that or the other.
Just to point out something here. Many guitarists regard johnny marr as not being a 'real' guitarist because of his use of technology to define his sound. They are what I call 'backward ignoramuses'.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Take the difference between driving a manual car and an automatic. The end result is the same but realistically speaking Automatic cars are for retards who cant master one of the simplest bits so they let the machine do it for them. Thats fine but then what happens if the brakes fail? In a manual car you jus drop it down the gears and take control. In an automatic you either wreck your gearbox trying to do that or you crash.

Some people prefer driving automatic. Some people prefer driving stick. I'm in the latter category. Doesn't mean I get on my high horse about people driving automatics.

Daroxtar wrote: »

I'm a carpenter and to me someone who uses a laptop to do the work for them and then calls themselves a DJ is the same as someone who puts together some flatpack furniture and then calls themselves a carpenter. Sure the flat pack makes life easier and you see it everywhere nowadays and any fool can get results from it but at the end of the day its just cheap mass produced sh1t with a plastic veneer.

Well that's logically invalid. And the reason is in bold. The laptop does a small amount of the work for them. Not ALL the work. A tiny amount in fact.
Do you ever use power tools in your job as a carpenter?

If so, I'm sure there is some carpenter somewhere in the world who doesn't. And guess what, he doesn't view you as a real carpenter. But he'd be wrong. For the very same reason you are wrong.

milltown

Daroxtar wrote: »

The same has more than likely been said about Kid Handsome.

Fight! fight! fight! fight!

Daroxtar wrote: »

Take the difference between driving a manual car and an automatic. The end result is the same but realistically speaking Automatic cars are for retards who cant master one of the simplest bits so they let the machine do it for them. Thats fine but then what happens if the brakes fail? In a manual car you jus drop it down the gears and take control. In an automatic you either wreck your gearbox trying to do that or you crash.

That is jointly the most far fetched argument I've ever read against DJ software AND automatic gearboxes.

My point of view; Years ago I had decks and boxes of records and lots more time on my hands to practice. I was no more than average though. Now with software and a midi controller I could probably put together a better mix than I could back then while doing the ironing! (But don't tell Mrs.Milltown). Instead of just accepting that it's that easy now though, I'm being more creative with loops, filters, effects and even three and four decks.

A large part of the argument, I think, is down to the fact that the guy that does weddings and pub nights with €500 worth of citronics gear in a flight case, has the same job title as the guy with crates of rare vinyl, and acetates who knows how to work a room beyond "nobody's dancing to Stars on 45, better break out the jive bunny". They're both DJs but surely you know what to expect from them both. I've never been to a club night where a "performance" DJ has rocked the room and kept the crowd going all night and given a fiddlers whether he did it with vinyl, CDs, MP3s or just played the whole thing off his iPod to be honest.

Sounds

I think that's where the clubbers either know or care what formats the performer is using,
In most clubs today nobody cares what you're using as long as the music is good and the drink keeps coming.

That's sad but then agin, there's better clubs out their for people who want a proper session, peoplewith an aquired taste in unique sounding music.
Which is why i allways loved elecronic music, tech, prog, minimal etc
I think i'm too old to be bouncing around to techno anyway but i still love quality sounds.
I supose you're right in a sence about decks, they are a tool for mastering beats and so on.
I wish there was more opertunities for young djs when i was growing up, but you were either in the scene or one of the listeners, clubbers.
Was in a bar in amsterdam once, the bar had their cd decks built into the wall facing out, we enjoyed it but, would have been better if there were decks.
If you have good music and the ability to share it, no matter how you put it together, it's amazing if you can connect with a crowd.
The whole sync thing sounds a bit crappy though, cheating, taking the art out of it.
I actually came on here for the first time in years, to see how much peeps were selling 1210's for.
Now i really don't want to sell them, id get a set again anyway when i could afford them, but im not gonna take that chance, too expencive.
Even if i amuse myself then they are worth every penny, i've got my money's worth.
Even though i love the decks, it's amazing to see someone like daft punk create crazy sounds or even dave clarke, boxes of switches and knobs.
I love to try out new tools, plastic or metal or both, as long as they can help me produce something unique, manually so what.
The main reason i wanted to use a surface controler was because after a while you get sick of depending on your mouse to turn knobs in software.
Unless you're lucky enough to have a proper studio at your desposal.
Now i dont have to depend on an expencive mixing unit to add extras, run it all through an audio interface and add what ever effects you want over the live set with your effects software, you can't make most effects without software anyway, even the most expencive studio equiptment has firmware runing it.
The most important thing is that i do it because i love how it all sounds, the end result.
I'm also amazed at how a good musician with real instruments can play them and record them into loops and play them back as they would sound if he just played the sounds with the instruments only.
Great guitar player with a foot peddle, play some music hit foot peddle, record, loop, next instrument, that's how a lot music is composed these days, digitally remastered using hardware and software.
A one man band lol

A friend has the keys to an old church, haven't played in a church before, but should be exciting.
Gonna have the decks and the rest setup on the alter, generally just make music and enjoy ourselfs, maybe record some.
We'll most likely use ableton to record loops from the church organ pipes lol, laptop and software will come in handy there.
The sound should be amazing

Sorry i get off track with excitement thinking about this stuff, i'd love to do it as a professional career, traveling and all that lonely stuff, but i don't, it's hard to get out there and make a name for yourself, which i probably don't want.

Táck

jtsuited wrote: »

If so, I'm sure there is some carpenter somewhere in the world who doesn't. And guess what, he doesn't view you as a real carpenter. But he'd be wrong. For the very same reason you are wrong.

ha, thats very very true

Jev/N

jtsuited wrote: »

I actually got the hang of beatmatching on cdj's in about an hour or two.

I already expressed my views, but I will comment on this saying that beatmatching on CDJs is infinitely easier that doing the same on 1210's

kmick

Daroxtar wrote: »

The real art of turntablism is being lost with only the hip hop djs keeping it alive and artists like Claude Young are being forgotten when they should be held in the same breath as virtuoso's like Joe Satriani or Stefan Grapelli. When i see someone on a laptop beat juggle 3 tracks using their elbow and their chin on the touch pad then I'll be convinced. Till then........ NOOOOOOOOO.

Personally that stuff bores me to tears. Id much prefer to have 90 minutes of nicely beatmatched, interesting, varied music than 90 seconds of music followed by 90 more seconds of chin scratching, followed by 90 seconds of music, followed by 90 seconds of elbow scratching. I get enough infantile bahaviour chasing my kids around thanks very much.

electrogrimey

jtsuited wrote: »

Do you ever use power tools in your job as a carpenter?

If so, I'm sure there is some carpenter somewhere in the world who doesn't. And guess what, he doesn't view you as a real carpenter. But he'd be wrong. For the very same reason you are wrong.

I love this.

I'd just like to point out the fact that there's hundreds and hundreds of awful wedding/hotel DJs with a beautiful set-up of 3 CDJ-1000s and DJM-800, who can't mix whatsoever. I'd have infinitely more respect for someone on an xponent mixing good tunes, even if he is technologically assisted, then some knob on CDJs who can't mix.

brianc27

i usually find people that give out about laptop djs are those that have actually never tried to use some sort of djing software, to be honest id probably do just as tight a mix (beatmatching wise) on a set of cdj1000's as i would on traktor, due to the pitch adjust on the 1000's being so tight (obviously), i used to have a set a few years ago before i switched to a laptop, with the likes of traktor its not just a case of hitting sync and everything is matched up for the duration of the tracks, beatgridding on traktor is great but its not always 100% so you do have to have a good ear for mixing as you may need to make slight adjustments, but what traktor has over cdj's/decks is a fantastic looping system and the option for 4 decks if needed, plus all your music is there for you on your laptop.

i don't use ableton and my knowledge of it is minimal so i can't comment on that.

electrogrimey

brianc27 wrote: »

what traktor has over cdj's/decks is a fantastic looping system and the option for 4 decks if needed, plus all your music is there for you on your laptop.

i don't use ableton and my knowledge of it is minimal so i can't comment on that.

The new 2000s include both of these features, but in fairness they're far too expensive for most people. I see ableton as mostly for a producer playing live, or for producing. Can't really see how it would work well for DJ sets.

Sounds

You could use ableton as a mixing tool also, you just cant cue the music in your headphones like you would with a mixer and turntables
You'd need to add on an audio interface http://www.novationmusic.com/products/audio_interface/nio_2_4

brianc27

id never use ableton to just mix 1 track into another, if i was to use it i'd cut up any track i intend to use into loops and mix 3 or 4 of them together and so on.

SteveDon

Cant believe people are still harping on about laptop djs.

In all fairness what in the sh1t does it make a difference what tunes are mixed on if they are mixed well?

If you were a vinyl buff and you downloaded a mix off the net that you really enjoyed, only to find out it was mixed with traktor would that change your opinion on it?

Its like saying that using an arppregiator in production is cheating.

VinylJunkie

agreed pointless argument imo.

eZe^

Sounds wrote: »

A friend has the keys to an old church, haven't played in a church before, but should be exciting.
Gonna have the decks and the rest setup on the alter, generally just make music and enjoy ourselfs, maybe record some.
We'll most likely use ableton to record loops from the church organ pipes lol, laptop and software will come in handy there.
The sound should be amazing

That sounds immense, wanna invite us?

eeloe

I've been using the xponent all weekend, and i have to say i love it!

I have all my music in on place, without looking through CD cases.

It's excelent, and it sounds a lot better than i thought it would!:)

Zascar

I had the Xponent too and loved it, but from experience the sound quality is not up to par. Not sure why but I'm changing to Traktor..

gsparx

It's interesting to hear people's opinions on this. Obviously some folks still feel strongly about it.
But it is just about what comes out of the speaker and what moves the dance floor.

The whole era of the "superstar" dj was absurd but probably fun for a bit. People want heroes and like to put people up on a pedestal for a while.
When Sasha/ Digweed/ Oakenfold etc. were charging $50 in for 2 hour sets, was it because they were the most skillflul with the pitch control?
No, they were in the right place at the right time and people enjoyed the sets they put together.
Some people would have said, "they're just playing other people's music..wtf?"
Now other people are saying, "they're using a computer to match up the beats...wtf?

If you're only into vinyl dj's only go to see vinyl only dj's, that's fine.
But with new technology comes a new set of skills. Or if you want to see real turntable skill go to see Rob Swift or whoever.
Some people are into Satriani (there he is again) or Coltrane or whoever because they enjoy seeing/ hearing that type of skill on an instrument but with DJ'ing (with the exception of turntablism) it's about how you use the technolgy (whether 1200's or a computer) to create moving sets of music.
90% of all mix CD's released have used studio trickery to create a seamless flow. Does that make them any less valid? I don't believe so.
I personally love vinyl mainly because of the sound and feel but I've no problem with digital music and welcome the new technology because it has some serious advantages.

jtsuited

coltrane is spinning in his grave being mentioned in the same sentence as satriani!

Dragan

Zascar wrote: »

Just under 10 years ago when CDJ's came on the scene all the Vinyl enthusiasts went bananas saying its cheating and its not the same bla bla bla, but several years later CDJ's replaced 1210's as the standard, and Vinyl pusists then became the minority. Seveal of my friends ate their words and switched to CDJ's after swearing that Vinyl was the one and only way to mix music.

Now CDJ's are being replaced by software and controllers and its the same silly stories flying around. The wax heads used the sound quality arguement for ages but it just does not stand up any longer.

For me and I assume many others, its a faily simple decision based upon a cost/effort/ability analysis. Quite simply, I like mixing records but I'm not prepared to pay €10 for one track, or lug heavy records around either. Also, I like mixing on CDJ's but I hate having to mess about with CD's, burning, cataloging etc and deal with skipping on occaision. I like the ability to search all my music on a screen - and then have the options as to my meduim (controller/software etc) as to how I turn what I see on screen into what comes out of the speakers. It Does Not Matter.

The 'Auto Beatmathcing is Cheating' arguement does not hold much weight either. "Beatmatching" is not "DJing" - its about 1% of it - yet a lot of people still need to learn this. Taking this away brings new possibilies which for the audience are a lot more exciting to watching a DJ bring two beats together.

CDJ-2000's are probably the best solution, but they can fuk right off if they think they are going to get 4k out of me for a set of decks!

Pretty much. You also have plenty of producers who actually don't want to be a DJ, and want some easy and stable way to reproduce what they do live.

A software/controller set up seems to be a good way to go.

gsparx

jtsuited wrote: »

coltrane is spinning in his grave being mentioned in the same sentence as satriani!

Spinning? I don't think so.
Possibly rotating slowly.
Both prone to musical wankery...one in a suit, the other in leather pants.

Sounds

If i heard a great set on cd or the net by my fav dj i'd be impressed
If i found out they used some sync technology to have the software
match the beats for them, i don't think i'd be as impressed, definetly not.
But then again, i know my fav djs know how to put it all together proper!
All their effects and swishes wouldn't be possible without the software in their equiptment.

I don't know what they are doin mostly, never see their computer's screen!

Anyone can mix two or 3 or 4 tunes on vinyl or computer, with practise
To some people it just comes naturally, and they have unique music to play.
Not everyone can create a musical journey from their music.

You're not being creative if you let the software control mixing for you

Hardcore is for people that haven't aquired a taste for quality sounds.
Just thought i'd add that in.