Question

Liam Byrne

I've been wondering about something.

Many people seem to believe that Ahern is some loveable, forgiveable "cute hoor" who did no real harm.

And I'm just wondering if part of the reason that people view him that way is because of his Gift Grub character ?

I know there are people who will never realise that Haughey was a thieving and corrupt scumbag, and that was pre Gift, so maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help wondering...

His most objectionable moments on TLLS the other night were:
1) Joking about Haughey's taste in shirts when quizzed about signing blank cheques
2) Saying that he'd have done things differently "if he'd known he'd end up in front of a tribunal" (not otherwise ?)
3) Joking that economists told him different things every day of the week
4) Joking about his modest semi-d compared to Haughey's mansion and stables
5) Inferring that Haughey & O'Donoghue were good laughs to go for a pint with, and that Cowen was good craic when he relaxed; maybe Hitler or Saddam Hussein were too, but that doesn't change what they did with their power

So what's the story ? Are we all stupid enough to laugh along when he makes a laugh about a serious issue that he should treat seriously ? Or is it somehow more acceptable because we've listened to Gift Grub and know the alter-ego as a loveable character, even if it doesn't reflect the real Ahern ?

mega man

there is more than meets the eye when it comes to ahern. he must be a member of the illuminati or something.

population

Interesting question. I wonder if there may be even more to it than that. For example all the "doting grandad" pics with his celebrity grandkids. People just lap that sh1t up.

mikemac

Liam Byrne wrote: »

His most objectionable moments on TLLS the other night were:

3) Joking that economists told him different things every day of the week
4) Joking about his modest semi-d compared to Haughey's mansion and stables
5) Inferring that Haughey & O'Donoghue were good laughs to go for a pint with, and that Cowen was good craic when he relaxed;

Objectionable maybe but those three points are most likely true

Liam Byrne

mikemac wrote: »

Objectionable maybe but those three points are most likely true

No argument here, but like I said (and the only example I can come up with at this hour) Hitler might have been a great laugh with a few pints, but that doesn't stop him being a scum and it wouldn't excuse someone coming on TV and stating that as part of their memories of him - even if it were true.

phelixoflaherty

He was not that interested in politics, just power.Plick

thebman

When in a tense situation most people want the tension removed, he knows how to do that.

That's why the audience laughs. Laughed at some of those myself but about a second later the what a scumbag thoughts come back.

lugha

TBH OP, Many of us can't quite the indignation for Ahern that you obviously have. Personally I find it far more sinister to look at other political figures whose reputation had been effortlessly redeemed. Ahern never murdered or kneecapped anyone for example. Truth is, he is about as good as we can hope to get and it's delusional to think that the future won't throw up more characters like him. The Irish electorate are not willing to censor or reject such politicians and it has nothing to do with gift grub. It probably has more to do with the immature Irish attitude which affords a kind of respect to those that break the rules. Ahern will run for the Aras and will probably get it. Your criticisms might better be directed at those who put and kept the likes of Ahern in power, namely us.

imme

yeah I can't understand it. Have Fianna Fail supporters become immune to sharp practice? When Ahern was making a joke about signing cheques for Charlie Haughey from the party leader's account, it was like a murderer who was released from prison on a chat show explaining what murder weapon they had used. I know it's not a direct analogy, and is hyperboloic, but that's what I felt at the time.

Fulton Crown

Look ! Ahern has a degree of charm and comes across well on Television.

His "Ordinary man" persona is probably reasonably genuine and he likes his sport and a few pints in the pub.

Trouble is IMHO is that he is a member of a party in whom nods / winks and cute hooorism is genetically imprinted.....

Think the Castlebar long necks...think the Baron of Lucan,the Swords Supremo,the Midlands (selective) memory man et all.

I'm sure they are all "good craic" and did the country some service..but they will forever be branded as the thievin amoral fookoos who did so much damage and blew the boom in spectacular fashion.

Don't believe The Bert will make the Aras in an election .....too many unanswered questions......

hallelujajordan

So what's the story ? Are we all stupid enough to laugh along when he makes a laugh about a serious issue that he should treat seriously ? Or is it somehow more acceptable because we've listened to Gift Grub and know the alter-ego as a loveable character, even if it doesn't reflect the real Ahern ?

Or, some of us have respect for the man who led our country for 12 years and achieved a great deal during that time (Massive increases in foreign direct investment, Massive improvements in infrastructure, Peace in Northern Ireland) ..

Some more specific answers

Liam Byrne wrote: »

1) Joking about Haughey's taste in shirts when quizzed about signing blank cheques

You are ignoring the fact that he also said that he regretted signing the cheques and that he didn't know what they were for. He injected a little humour because, after all it was TLLS . .

2) Saying that he'd have done things differently "if he'd known he'd end up in front of a tribunal" (not otherwise ?)

I'll have to re-watch the show . . I think you are quoting him out of context here

3) Joking that economists told him different things every day of the week

Absolutely true . . The government of the day have economists, lobbyists and opinion groups throwing their opinion at them every day. Their job is to try to digest, understand and make the right decisions.

4) Joking about his modest semi-d compared to Haughey's mansion and stables

That's not a joke; he lives in a modest semi-D and certainly does not appear to have any significant wealth

5) Inferring that Haughey & O'Donoghue were good laughs to go for a pint with, and that Cowen was good craic when he relaxed; maybe Hitler or Saddam Hussein were too, but that doesn't change what they did with their power

Is is not the job of a chat show to try to get some insight into what life and people are really like behind the scenes


In all seriousness, I think you have a point about satirists like Gift Grub. I think they have influenced people in a positive way about Bertie. Similarly I think they ought to take a level of responsibility for the negative public perception of Brian Cowen.

DubTony

hallelujajordan wrote: »

That's not a joke; he lives in a modest semi-D and certainly does not appear to have any significant wealth

Don't kid yourself. The man was Taoiseach for 10 years. Nobody goes through €2.5 mill + when they're working 60 + hours a week. He may not show his significant wealth, but remember he has earned more in just 10 years than most people do in 2 working lifetimes.

jimmmy

plus his pension as ex taoiseach alone ( never mind any other pension or income ) is nearly twice the current working salary the prime minister of New Zealand - a country of similar size population ) earns, and nearly ten times the average industrial wage in the EC.

hallelujajordan

DubTony wrote: »

Don't kid yourself. The man was Taoiseach for 10 years. Nobody goes through €2.5 mill + when they're working 60 + hours a week. He may not show his significant wealth, but remember he has earned more in just 10 years than most people do in 2 working lifetimes.

That's not my point . . The only point I was making is that he lives in a modest Semi-D and shows no appearance of significant wealth as Haughey did. I've no idea how much money he has or what he does with it but the OP was taking objection to the fact that he commented about living in a semi-D as opposed to a mansion. A fact which I simply pointed out is true !

jimmmy

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I've no idea how much money he has

Given Taoiseach in this country each receive more than the p.m. of Uk, Germany , France etc....and ex Taoiseach get a 50% pension for life ( eg Fitzgerald is on a pension of well over 100k annually from his days as Taoiseach ) ....its time people in this country understood more where their taxes go.
Ahern lives in a semi.d, so what, so does Liam Carroll the developer

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

the OP was taking objection to the fact that he commented about living in a semi-D as opposed to a mansion. A fact which I simply pointed out is true !

A million miles out of context! Jeez, whatever about my occasional slip-ups in this regard, I'm in second place when it comes to your tactics!

My point was that - when asked about Haughey and corruption and dodgy payments, he joked about this.

I couldn't care less WHERE he lives (although given some of his party's policies, you probably do need to be a millionaire to live in a semi-d, but that's a whole other topic).

My point was that when asked about Haughey's corruption and his own dodgy finances, he used this as a jokey "out"......as you said, where he lives might not reflect his finances, so therefore it's NOT AN ANSWER, NOT RELEVANT, AND THE QUESTION WAS NOT SOMETHING TO BE JOKED ABOUT.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My point was that - when asked about Haughey and corruption and dodgy payments, he joked about this.

My point was that when asked about Haughey's corruption and his own dodgy finances, he used this as a jokey "out"......as you said, where he lives might not reflect his finances, so therefore it's NOT AN ANSWER, NOT RELEVANT, AND THE QUESTION WAS NOT SOMETHING TO BE JOKED ABOUT.

You need to listen to the interview again. Tubridy raised the question of the semi-D not Bertie.. . All Bertie said was something along the lines of "I'm still living in a semi-D" which is a fact, not a joke.

Bottle_of_Smoke

He comes across as a likeable guy when speaking in interviews. To most people anyway.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You need to listen to the interview again. Tubridy raised the question of the semi-D not Bertie.. . All Bertie said was something along the lines of "I'm still living in a semi-D" which is a fact, not a joke.

Not totally true, and not my point; when asked about the corrupt Haughey's mansion and stables, he should have said something along the lines"well, that's easy for him, given that the banks let him off and that he had questionable finances".....

But because Ahern was implicated in those "dodgy finances", he couldn't.

He said "I'm still living in a semi-d" with a big smirk on his face, so yes, he did intend it as a jokey deflection from the actual issues.

MysticalRain

Or, some of us have respect for the man who led our country for 12 years

Making empty promises and bribing the electorate by handing out money like there was no tomorrow wasn't "leadership" by any stretch.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Massive increases in foreign direct investment

The foundation for the FDI boom was laid by other politicians who came before Ahern. He just happened to reap the benefits and squander it. The FDI boom effectively ended in 2001 and was replaced by the imaginary economy of the property bubble.

Massive improvements in infrastructure

Why am I surfing this forum on a crap 1.7meg Eircom line (on a good day) when people countries like Sweden and South Korea enjoy speeds almost 50-100 times faster? Why do schools still have to beg for money? Why is our rail infrastructure still crumbling?

Peace in Northern Ireland

There was more to the peace process than just Ahern's involvement. He played his part, along with hundreds of other players. The real "credit" should go to the hotheads on either side for growing tired of the taste of the each others blood.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Not totally true, and not my point; when asked about the corrupt Haughey's mansion and stables, he should have said something along the lines"well, that's easy for him, given that the banks let him off and that he had questionable finances".....

But because Ahern was implicated in those "dodgy finances", he couldn't.

He said "I'm still living in a semi-d" with a big smirk on his face, so yes, he did intend it as a jokey deflection from the actual issues.

Oh come on . . if you are going to comment on it, then comment on the whole interview and stop taking sentences in isolation and trying to portray something in a way that is different to what actually happened.

1. Tubridy introduced the idea of the Semi-D, not Ahern. Ahern skillfully used the comment in a lighthearted way before going on to actually answer the question (without joking)
2. He went on to explain that he was only 25 at the time, that it was a time that you didn't ask questions of 'the Boss' (to do so would have been political suicide) and that he assumed that Charlie had got his money from his previous accountancy practice.

He didn't deflect the issue, he answered it . . you just don't like his answer.

hallelujajordan

MysticalRain wrote: »

The foundation for the FDI boom was laid by other politicians who came before Ahern. He just happened to reap the benefits and squander it. The FDI boom effectively ended in 2001 and was replaced by the imaginary economy of the property bubble.


Why am I surfing this forum on a crap 1.7meg Eircom line (on a good day) when people countries like Sweden and South Korea enjoy speeds almost 50-100 times faster? Why do schools still have to beg for money? Why is our rail infrastructure still crumbling?


There was more to the peace process than just Ahern's involvement. He played his part, along with hundreds of other players. The real "credit" should go to the hotheads on either side for growing tired of the taste of the each others blood.

This is very typical of the anti-Ahern, anti-FF attitude. . . blame him for everything that went wrong, but refuse to give him credit for any of the good things he did.

BTW, I am writing this on 20MB broadband. . .

Spiritoftheseventies

I have always thought Gift grub works against Politicians. I mean they crucify Kenny on it.

MysticalRain

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is very typical of the anti-Ahern, anti-FF attitude. . . blame him for everything that went wrong, but refuse to give him credit for any of the good things he did.

I'll give Ahern credit if, or when he deserves it. But unlike the FF apologists, I'm not going to pretend Ahern wasn't a dismal leader who led the country off a cliff.

BTW, I am writing this on 20MB broadband. . .

Translation: I've got mine, so screw the rest of the country.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Oh come on . . if you are going to comment on it, then comment on the whole interview and stop taking sentences in isolation and trying to portray something in a way that is different to what actually happened.

OK, so. The next time someone's asked about Saddam Hussein and says lots of things - including "he was a great man and did nothing wrong" - you seriously reckon we shouldn't take that as an accurate representation of his opinion, or point out that it is completely wrong to hold that view ?

I can guarantee you that if I posted pages of logic on these forums and said "Hitler was a great man*", or "Hitler did nothing wrong*" then I would be "rightly" lambasted for that single statement.

In fact, anything else I did say would be ignored, or else critically examined to ensure that I didn't have any other extreme or unacceptable views.

* Disclaimer : I in no way hold these views

So I'll ask again, rephrasing a little. What is the correct answer to :

"Mr Ahern, did Haughey ever ask you to do anything wrong ?"

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is very typical of the anti-Ahern, anti-FF attitude. . . blame him for everything that went wrong, but refuse to give him credit for any of the good things he did.

It makes a nice balance from the deluded FF stance - repeated by Ahern at the start of the interview - of "blame Lehman's for everything that went wrong, but take credit for any of the good things".

:rolleyes:

And again, we weren't (or rather, I wasn't, anyway) "anti-Ahern" or "anti-FF" until AFTER he screwed things up.....I used to actually vote for them many years ago, until O'Malley exposed Haughey for the rat that he was.

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is very typical of the anti-Ahern, anti-FF attitude. . . blame him for everything that went wrong, but refuse to give him credit for any of the good things he did.

BTW, I am writing this on 20MB broadband. . .

Did you ever heard the slogan "the buck stops here" ?
Oh wait you are a bertie apologist, as can be seen on all the threads around here, and your idea of the buck stops here is probably the same as his, which translates to "more bucks for me".

MysticalRain wrote: »

...
Translation: I've got mine, so screw the rest of the country.

Well that would be the typical ff mindset :rolleyes:

imme

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is very typical of the anti-Ahern, anti-FF attitude. . . blame him for everything that went wrong, but refuse to give him credit for any of the good things he did.

BTW, I am writing this on 20MB broadband. . .

ok 20MB broadband very good, but where's my Luas and my underground?

Spiritoftheseventies

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is very typical of the anti-Ahern, anti-FF attitude. . . blame him for everything that went wrong, but refuse to give him credit for any of the good things he did.

BTW, I am writing this on 20MB broadband. . .

Yes Bertie will always be linked to those "suicide" remarks when he lambasted an economist for suggesting that we were spending beyond our means.
But he fell asleep at the wheel. Between him and Cowen they let the banks and property developers and other vested interested run the show and money that should have been set aside for other projects is now being devoted to NAMA.
And still after all this we have not got a commitment to put an end to Political donations. Greens can say this that and the other but Fianna Fail are clearly not intent on giving up their old ways.

Liam Byrne

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes Bertie will always be linked to those "suicide" remarks when he lambasted an economist for suggesting that we were spending beyond our means.

Ah, but according to hallelujajordan, he still took that economist's advice seriously :rolleyes:

hallelujajordan

MysticalRain wrote: »

Translation: I've got mine, so screw the rest of the country.

Jaysus, you guys are so aggressive. . my point was only to illustrate that the type of infrastructure you say exists in Sweden and other countries also exists here ! throughout Ireland ! and it is part of the revised PfG to expand this even further.

jmayo wrote:

Did you ever heard the slogan "the buck stops here" ?
Oh wait you are a bertie apologist, as can be seen on all the threads around here, and your idea of the buck stops here is probably the same as his, which translates to "more bucks for me".

I'm not a Bertie apologist and I have said several times that he should have done more earlier about the property bubble . . I just think that, in reference to the OP's original question, Bertie Ahern should also be recognised for some of his positive achievements while in government.

Liam Byrne wrote:

OK, so. The next time someone's asked about Saddam Hussein and says lots of things - including "he was a great man and did nothing wrong" - you seriously reckon we shouldn't take that as an accurate representation of his opinion, or point out that it is completely wrong to hold that view ?

I can guarantee you that if I posted pages of logic on these forums and said "Hitler was a great man*", or "Hitler did nothing wrong*" then I would be "rightly" lambasted for that single statement.

In fact, anything else I did say would be ignored, or else critically examined to ensure that I didn't have any other extreme or unacceptable views.

* Disclaimer : I in no way hold these views

To be fair, that analogy is just ridiculous. You take one line out of an interview and btw he never said Haughey 'did nothing wrong'. You ignore the context in which it was said and make it appear like Bertie said and meant something entirely different.

You asked a question in the thread and if you want to debate it lets do so, but debate it fully and in context . . It really is stupid to pull one line out of an interview, highlight it in bold and make it appear that Bertie Ahern's only comment about Haughey on Friday night was that he was a good man.

So I'll ask again, rephrasing a little. What is the correct answer to :

"Mr Ahern, did Haughey ever ask you to do anything wrong ?"

Who are you addressing this question to because I personally have no knowledge of what Haughey asked Ahern to do . .

As I have said before, if you have specific evidence that Haughey asked Ahern to do something wrong, then lets hear it ?