Question

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

To be fair, that analogy is just ridiculous. You take one line out of an interview and btw he never said Haughey 'did nothing wrong'.

You ignore the context in which it was said and make it appear like Bertie said and meant something entirely different.

Please quit being so anal; I did not try to infer that that's the question that Bertie was asked and answered. I showed an EXAMPLE about someone being asked one thing and how one line WOULD be focussed on if that line was way off the mark. PERIOD.

Next thing you know you'll be saying that the inclusion of Hussein & Hitler in my examples somehow mean that I think Ahern committed genocide or started WWII !!!! :rolleyes:

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You asked a question in the thread and if you want to debate it lets do so, but debate it fully and in context . . It really is stupid to pull one line out of an interview, highlight it in bold and make it appear that Bertie Ahern's only comment about Haughey on Friday night was that he was a good man.

Not a hope - again! If you even bothered to read what I said above, I said that "no matter what else was said, the lie / opinion would stand out". But you chose to ignore that in order to twist it.

And before you go off on one again - show me ONE post where I've even REMOTELY implied that "Bertie Ahern's ONLY comment about Haughey on Friday night was that he was a good man"....go on....show me!

I have seriously never come across someone whose posts are so blinkered and frustratingly misleading.....you'd even give Ahern a run for his money on "explanations, counter-explanations, changes of story", etc.....

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Who are you addressing this question to because I personally have no knowledge of what Haughey asked Ahern to do . .

A well-documented fact. Ahern in charge of cheque-book, funds go awol and end up in Haughey's bank account. If you don't have any knowledge of that, you don't know your politics (or else you use Ahern's book as a historical reference).

http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0714/moriarty.html

hallelujajordan wrote: »

As I have said before, if you have specific evidence that Haughey asked Ahern to do something wrong, then lets hear it ?

You're doing it again! That's not what you asked before!!! You asked if there was evidence that Ahern knew it was wrong.....I couldn't be arsed linking back, but it's there in black and white.

You even ignored my answer; the answer to that question that you asked - as I've said before - is "no". Most people would have copped that blank cheques of that magnitude, made out to people they're not meant to be made out to, are 100% wrong....but I answered no and I even gave Ahern the benefit of the doubt by saying that he either (a) knew and had no problem with it or (b) was completely naive and crap at doing his job.

It HAS to be one or the other, though.

And I'll link to that post if you want me to, too. :rolleyes:

Spiritoftheseventies

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah, but according to hallelujajordan, he still took that economist's advice seriously :rolleyes:

Not seriously enough!

MysticalRain

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Jaysus, you guys are so aggressive. . my point was only to illustrate that the type of infrastructure you say exists in Sweden and other countries also exists here ! throughout Ireland !

It doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure out that they 20meg line is not comparable with 100 or 160 meg lines available in other countries. To have that level of broadband, we should have invested in a decent fiber-optic network during the boom years which would have costed a fraction of what we are currently spending on NAMA.

20 meg plans only exist in isolated pockets around the country. I can't get 20 megs in my part of the country, and if you walk a mile up the road from where I live, people living there are still on dial-up. I was told by a sales rep from Magnet.ie this morning that 10/20 meg lines are not available in some of the newer estates in Swords, Dublin...much to my astonishment. So I'll have to find some other place to move to if I want a decent connection.

and it is part of the revised PfG to expand this even further.

Empty promises. Too little too late etc. They've been telling us that for years now. Of course being a FF apologist, I'm not surprised you actually believe the official party line here.

imme

re Ahern listening to economists, he commissioned reports from economist Peter Bacon, both reports were not acted upon, what was the point of commissioning them?
Meanwhile Charlie McCreevy was allowed frolic away to his hearts' content in the Department of Finance on 'worthwhile' projects such as decentralisation.

hallelujajordan

MysticalRain wrote: »

It doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure out that they 20meg line is not comparable with 100 or 160 meg lines available in other countries. To have that level of broadband, we should have invested in a decent fiber-optic network during the boom years which would have costed a fraction of what we are currently spending on NAMA.

20 meg plans only exist in isolated pockets around the country. I can't get 20 megs in my part of the country, and if you walk a mile up the road from where I live, people living there are still on dial-up. I was told by a sales rep from Magnet.ie this morning that 10/20 meg lines are not available in some of the newer estates in Swords, Dublin...much to my astonishment. So I'll have to find some other place to move to if I want a decent connection.

Move to Celbridge I have 20 MB BB from UPC and it works great. I can't imagine why any residential customers would need 100 / 160 MB broadband. .

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And before you go off on one again - show me ONE post where I've even REMOTELY implied that "Bertie Ahern's ONLY comment about Haughey on Friday night was that he was a good man"....go on....show me!

I've been wondering about something.

Many people seem to believe that Ahern is some loveable, forgiveable "cute hoor" who did no real harm.

And I'm just wondering if part of the reason that people view him that way is because of his Gift Grub character ?

I know there are people who will never realise that Haughey was a thieving and corrupt scumbag, and that was pre Gift, so maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help wondering...

His most objectionable moments on TLLS the other night were:
1) Joking about Haughey's taste in shirts when quizzed about signing blank cheques
2) Saying that he'd have done things differently "if he'd known he'd end up in front of a tribunal" (not otherwise ?)
3) Joking that economists told him different things every day of the week
4) Joking about his modest semi-d compared to Haughey's mansion and stables
5) Inferring that Haughey & O'Donoghue were good laughs to go for a pint with, and that Cowen was good craic when he relaxed; maybe Hitler or Saddam Hussein were too, but that doesn't change what they did with their power

So what's the story ? Are we all stupid enough to laugh along when he makes a laugh about a serious issue that he should treat seriously ? Or is it somehow more acceptable because we've listened to Gift Grub and know the alter-ego as a loveable character, even if it doesn't reflect the real Ahern ?

Your original post . . implies that Ahern's references to Haughey on Friday night were only in jest and fails to recognise that he actually did criticise Haughey within the same interview.

A well-documented fact. Ahern in charge of cheque-book, funds go awol and end up in Haughey's bank account. If you don't have any knowledge of that, you don't know your politics (or else you use Ahern's book as a historical reference).

http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0714/moriarty.html

Ahern has explained the situation with the cheques and how he signed blank cheques for administrative reasons. That may be bad practice but it is generally acknowledged that it is true. I asked you for specific examples to back up your claim that Haughey specifically asked Ahern to do something that he knew to be wrong.

thebman

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Move to Celbridge I have 20 MB BB from UPC and it works great. I can't imagine why any residential customers would need 100 / 160 MB broadband. .

That's nonsense. Bandwidth requirements are only going one way. That's like saying you can't imagine why anyone would more than one toilet in their house or change to double glazing. Things change and we are behind.

Just because you personally may not be able make proper use of your 20Mbps BB from UPC does not mean there is no need for faster broadband in the country.

You do realise businesses need broadband too and that is where the real problem is with BB in this country? Both the speed and the cost are ridiculous and we are bottom of the tables in this area for the EU and we have the highest line rental in the world (or at least used to at one point and it hasn't come down so unless someone increased theres).

We are only falling further behind other countries with this foolish attitude.

hallelujajordan

thebman wrote: »

That's nonsense. Bandwidth requirements are only going one way. That's like saying you can't imagine why anyone would more than one toilet in their house or change to double glazing. Things change and we are behind.

Just because you personally may not be able make proper use of your 20Mbps BB from UPC does not mean there is no need for faster broadband in the country.

You do realise businesses need broadband too and that is where the real problem is with BB in this country? Both the speed and the cost are ridiculous and we are bottom of the tables in this area for the EU and we have the highest line rental in the world (or at least used to at one point and it hasn't come down so unless someone increased theres).

We are only falling further behind other countries with this foolish attitude.

Apologies . . I am in no way a telecoms expert and tbh I have no idea what the needs of small businesses are like.

I was responding to someone who was complaining about 1.5Meg BB to illustrate that there are better services available in Ireland

Personally, I work for a multinational company . . we have offices in 45 countries and I have visited a lot of them. I can honestly say that my connection to work and the internet is as quick (or quicker in many cases) from my home in Celbridge than it is from any of our global offices. .

But like I said, I am not an expert on these matters. . I accept that there is a need to improve BB infrastructure in Ireland (I think I said as much earlier !)

imme

Maybe someone could start a seperate 'What did Bertie do for us' thread.

Spiritoftheseventies

In answer to original post I think people are smart enough to separate the two. Bertie has good points but at the same time he seems to like being in the public profile and I don't that has changed since he went out of office.
The whole thing with him getting photoed with Cantona outside the Savoy as an election stunt for his brother was just a bit embarrassing to be honest and the public didn't fall for it.
He has not ruled out running for the Aras but really I think its time he called it a day.
Given how much of a deal we made about our image abroad during the Lisbon debate I'm not sure if he is the ideal candidate.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Your original post . . implies that Ahern's references to Haughey on Friday night were only in jest and fails to recognise that he actually did criticise Haughey within the same interview.

Did you even READ it ?

It's there in black and white :

Liam Byrne wrote: »

His most objectionable moments on TLLS the other night were:

You see that ? Absolutely no "implication" or inference that there was "nothing else" that he said. I listed his "most objectionable", and I introduced them as such.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Ahern has explained the situation with the cheques and how he signed blank cheques for administrative reasons. That may be bad practice but it is generally acknowledged that it is true. I asked you for specific examples to back up your claim that Haughey specifically asked Ahern to do something that he knew to be wrong.

That you did (well, in actual fact you asked for proof). The Mahon Tribunal can't even find that, so I definitely have none (because if I'd had it it would be on Mahon's desk by now).

So I said I had none. I also said that either (a) he knew or (b) that he was crap at his job. I said that in the absence of proof that I could give him the benefit of the doubt and that it might well be "only" (b); but that it was EITHER (a) or (b).

And you've now admitted - finally - that it was "bad practice". I've news for you - "bad practice" is "wrong". "Bad practice" might be acceptable from a volunteer novice treasurer in a small GAA club, or even a book-keeper in a small company, but for a Minister for Finance ?????

So do you still reckon the "doing nothing wrong" applies ? Nothing criminal, maybe, but DEFINITELY wrong.

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Jaysus, you guys are so aggressive. . my point was only to illustrate that the type of infrastructure you say exists in Sweden and other countries also exists here ! throughout Ireland ! and it is part of the revised PfG to expand this even further.

Ah yes ryan's idea of high speed broadband is a bloody 3G dongel.
Bullsh** to that.
Because Eircom was sold and resold etc there has been no rela major investment in broadband infrastructure.
Eircom could have been sold but the infrastructure shpould have remained in public ownership.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm not a Bertie apologist and I have said several times that he should have done more earlier about the property bubble . . I just think that, in reference to the OP's original question, Bertie Ahern should also be recognised for some of his positive achievements while in government.

But you are an apologist for him.
You thorw in the odd criticism but in general you thing he did a good job.
You try and dilute his responsibility by dragging other things into it.
It is just the typcial ff claptrap.
bertie oversaw regimes where nobody was ever responsible for anything.
It is thus so with HSE, Fás, etc.

BTW even the worse leaders in the world such as hitler had some positive achievements, but they are heavily outweighed by all the negatives.
And before you get excited I am not comparing hitler to bertie.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

As I have said before, if you have specific evidence that Haughey asked Ahern to do something wrong, then lets hear it ?

Ah yes the last argument to resort to to shut anyone up that questions very weird practices or unexplained occurrences of cash etc.
Proving corruption is very difficult since people rarely admit to it and leave little evidence.
BTW would signing blank cheques not be a questionable practice.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I can honestly say that my connection to work and the internet is as quick (or quicker in many cases) from my home in Celbridge than it is from any of our global offices. .

You do realist that that's like saying that the M50 exists, so therefore there must be a motorway in Mayo, too ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

But like I said, I am not an expert on these matters. . I accept that there is a need to improve BB infrastructure in Ireland (I think I said as much earlier !)

In massive areas of the country, there isn't a need to "improve" broadband infrastructure, there's a need to create one!

And outside of those, due to FF's short-sighted selling of Telecom Eireann's "last mile" infrastructure (which, remember, was ours, given that it was a state company), there's another massive tract of the country that has no option but to pay over the odds for their 2MB broadband, plus the lines won't support anything more.

Did you see the newspaper reports about business people on the Tipperary / Kilkenny border driving 3 miles with their laptops to stand in a graveyard in order to receive their emails ?

JonathanAnon

Ever since his Brian Dobson "role", I have always been suspicious of Bertie Ahern. He manipulates people into thinking he's the average punter that you would have a pint with. And he tries to make out that circumstances conspired against poor old Bertie, and that's why he got into a bit of trouble. Just to pick up on a few of his points:

1. Charlie's shirts: "I didnt know that he was buying shirts in France" - He was the accountant for the country, it was his job to balance the books and controls expenditure. He should have tackled his boss on the issue (as all accountants are expected to do), or else he should have resigned.

2. Injuring his leg: He made out that all he was capable of doing was writing his book. Do any of those gob****es who were guffawing at his every uttering realise that we are paying him over 200k a year (inc pension), whether he chooses to write his book or actually do the job we pay him to do.

3. Miriam: "We're still great friends". Bertie is always very careful how he portrays his relationship with his ex wife as he knows that if the wrong perception goes out on this issue he could lose the female vote. The truth is that he chose work over family life. Not that there is anything hugely wrong with that, but he shouldnt be looking for sympathy because his marriage broke up.

Bertie, imo, had the capability of preventing the property crash or at least making it softer. But his government laid out the red carpet for multinationals who were NEVER going to stay, brought in foreign workers (who are now filling our dole queues) for jobs that were NEVER going to stay here, allowed (through non regulation) the banks to lend millions for what is now worthless land and property to people who could NEVER keep up payments long term, allowed the banks to invest this money (whether directly or indirectly) into the American subprime, Didnt try to control the building of houses with planning, control expenditure etc etc etc there's just so many things they could have done ........ He will not be getting my vote for President.

Eutow

But he will get a load of votes from the deluded idiots that queued for his book signing, and all the others that think he is just a bit of a scoundrel, rather than the truth, that he didn't have the skills or the competence to properly lead this country.

hallelujajordan

Lest I get accused of dodging questions, work calls and I have to step on a plane in an hour or so . .

Will be offline for a couple of days . .

You may find some other FF-supporter to beat up

thebman

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Ever since his Brian Dobson "role", I have always been suspicious of Bertie Ahern. He manipulates people into thinking he's the average punter that you would have a pint with.

In fairness, its easy for him to keep that average punter appearance when the only TV station he appears on is RTE who wouldn't know what a hard question looks like and always let our politicians easily dodge questions.

Fulton Crown

Recent Presidents - indeed all Presidents - have been above repute in terms of dodgy financials.

Ahern does not fall into that category...and in my opinion has no hope of the Presidency

Too many questions.....far too many unanswered questions - stick to suburbia and pints o Bass in Fagans Bert.

ninty9er

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Recent Presidents - indeed all Presidents - have been above repute in terms of dodgy financials.

You might want to rethink that statement.

In answer to the OP...Gift Grub has SFA to do with anything. Fair enough it makes fools of our politicians in a satirical manner, but it also makes fools of the likes of Damien Duff, Stephen Ireland, Louis Walsh...the list goes on.

At the end of the day it's up to people to make their own minds up and I can't think of anyone I know who would be influenced by Gift Grub or Nob Nation. They may reference it, but would never base a decision on it.

ParkRunner

Another question. Is Jimmy a.k.a. Liam Byrne?:D

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

Fair enough it makes fools of our politicians in a satirical manner, but it also makes fools of the likes of Damien Duff, Stephen Ireland, Louis Walsh...the list goes on.

It didn't really make fun of Ahern, though; maybe the Bosco sketch, but most of the others played up to his "loveable rogue"...

Maybe I have this the wrong way around; maybe the real Ahern spotted the potential of being viewed as a "loveable rogue", and played up to it to almost perfection ?