Trade unions

Aliprey

Not sure if this is particularly suited for Politics, but it seems better than AH.

Do trade unions in Ireland publish public accounts?

Looking at the kind of money Jack O'Connor is on, and how much SIPTU spend on cars each year - I'd love to know so I can hate trade unions even more.

Hootanany

Think isaw it on another thread he on about €155,000 + expense's

TheInquisitor

Yup thats about right. Id say roughly 200k including everything maybe more with pension. Unions were grand at the beginning trying to protect workers. But not they are actually causing companies to fail and costing people jobs.

Company sales fall 20%
Wages need to fall 20% to avoid collapse of company or redundancies.
Unions oppose wage cuts and redundancies. Start strike. Company now looses much more money and closes down. Hey presto, well done unions. They are no longer reasonably negociating, they just demand

Long Onion

McLoone is on €155,000 O'Connor is on around €125,000 as far as I recall. I presume that there would be generous expenses drawn on top of that, car allowances, dinners, accomodation mileage etc.

David Beg is on around €136,000 - the Independent ran an article on it not so long ago. I would presume that audited accounts are available somewhere, the members must be entitled to a copy if they so requested.

Edit: was going to add the missing 'g' from Beg's name but then realised that it was actually quite apt.

starbelgrade

Long Onion wrote: »

Edit: was going to add the missing 'g' from Beg's name but then realised that it was actually quite apt.

He won't be doing much begging on those wages!

Joey the lips

I can see where this thread is going so for my pce I shall start,

There is many problems with unions in Ireland. But the main problem is failure of workers to take a self interest, The union needs you just as much as you need the union.

Having worked on both sides of the table ie been a union rep and been a manager delagating with unions I cannot understand how poorly employees understand there rights and how many get buy without unions.

Some of the strongest unions in the world are not in places like china, Korea or tiwan. They are in America and france. Is this painting a picture.

Lastly, The biggest hinderence to an ecomomist screwing an economy or and its alleged michael o leary has said "Squeezing its employees like lemons" is the Unions.

If you are in a union part of your fee's go directly to the labour party.

So I ask you. If you have a problem in work go to your union rep. If your not happy speak to your branch manager. If your still not happy go to Liberty hall and lastly if your stone cold hitting a wall write to your local labour councillor or TD.

But sitting back and doing nothing.... What do you expect. Look at what we pay T.D's and they do shag all!

Long Onion

Joey the lips wrote: »

I can see where this thread is going so for my pce I shall start,

There is many problems with unions in Ireland. But the main problem is failure of workers to take a self interest, The union needs you just as much as you need the union.

Having worked on both sides of the table ie been a union rep and been a manager delagating with unions I cannot understand how poorly employees understand there rights and how many get buy without unions.

Some of the strongest unions in the world are not in places like china, Korea or tiwan. They are in America and france. Is this painting a picture.

Lastly, The biggest hinderence to an ecomomist screwing an economy or and its alleged michael o leary has said "Squeezing its employees like lemons" is the Unions.

If you are in a union part of your fee's go directly to the labour party.

So I ask you. If you have a problem in work go to your union rep. If your not happy speak to your branch manager. If your still not happy go to Liberty hall and lastly if your stone cold hitting a wall write to your local labour councillor or TD.

But sitting back and doing nothing.... What do you expect. Look at what we pay T.D's and they do shag all!

I think that we need to draw a distinction between collective bargaining and union movement as it exists in Ireland today. The former is a fantastic way to secure good pay and conditions for employees and does indeed act as a natural barrier against exploitation. The latter, is a fumbling Marxist dinosaur, out of touch with the reality of modern economics and feels that it is fine to spend a multi million euro sum on the redevelopment of Union hall in the depths of the worst recession in recent memory whilst paying top officers salaries above and beyond those of the above mentioned TD's and, at the same time not reducing union dues payable by the workers who are finding it harder to make ends meet.

I would love to feel that my Union were relevant and of help the reality, however is that they are not. The world is no longer drwn on marxist/capitalist lines, the grey areas in between are where the vast majority of us dwell. Ireland owes a debt of gratitude to Connolly, Larkinet al but this is a debt that can be repaid best by driving forward the place of collective bargaining in a way which is of most relevance to the members.

In my opinion, the unions need to re-visit their membership and seek a fresh mandate, I know of very few people who agree with the way Irish unions are run.

Soldie

Long Onion wrote: »

In my opinion, the unions need to re-visit their membership and seek a fresh mandate, I know of very few people who agree with the way Irish unions are run.

If people disagree with the way their union is run then they should cancel their membership.

lmimmfn

dont agree with unions in europe other than preventing bad working conditions( covered by law anyway ), ensuring fairness based on age/sex/religion( again covered by law and doesnt need a union ), ensuring redundent employees get the best they can.

Other than that i hate them when they hold our country to ransom for stupid PS greed and stupid crap about 'not in my job description' or 'need more money to learn a new system'

The do have their purpose but they need their power reduced when they can hold a country to ransom, 'too big to fail' ring any bells?

turgon

Soldie wrote: »

If people disagree with the way their union is run then they should cancel their membership.

Whats interesting is that they dont. My father has been repeatedly ****ed over by the INTO in his primary school. When I tell him he should quit because they have never helped him out (and there have been times when he really needed it), he dosent do more than shrug. Its just complacency.


As Ive said before the Unions are a great irony. Supposed fighters against greed its their inordinate greed for wages and social welfare that has caused this huge budget deficit.

brianthebard

Long Onion wrote: »

I think that we need to draw a distinction between collective bargaining and union movement as it exists in Ireland today. The former is a fantastic way to secure good pay and conditions for employees and does indeed act as a natural barrier against exploitation. The latter, is a fumbling Marxist dinosaur, out of touch with the reality of modern economics and feels that it is fine to spend a multi million euro sum on the redevelopment of Union hall in the depths of the worst recession in recent memory whilst paying top officers salaries above and beyond those of the above mentioned TD's and, at the same time not reducing union dues payable by the workers who are finding it harder to make ends meet.

If this was any other organisation then this would be seen as a vital stimulus to the economy-instead because its the Unions its dumped on.

Ireland owes a debt of gratitude to Connolly, Larkinet al but this is a debt that can be repaid best by driving forward the place of collective bargaining in a way which is of most relevance to the members.

I would question your sincerity in this statement, if you truly believe in repaying Connolly and Larkin you would be calling for increased union membership and putting the worker above businesses, which is not the case.

In my opinion, the unions need to re-visit their membership and seek a fresh mandate, I know of very few people who agree with the way Irish unions are run.

I agree that most of the Unions could benefit from rethinking their present politics. However Unions are as Joey pointed out the sum of their parts. It is the workers who join the Unions which push their ideology forward. People need to educate themselves about the value of a union.
Then they might realise that just because the Union hasn't sorted out your own personal issue as in Tugron's example, they will still be smart enough to realise that Union representation has benefited them individually and collectively, as his dad perhaps understands.

FlutterinBantam

Unions today are run for the benefit of wasters and malcontents in my opinion.

Who makes the most use of the Union.?

1.. the honest genuine worker who believes in doing an honest days work for an honest days pay.

2.. the mouthy malcontent who knows everything but rides the system ragged and is first up to the shop steward if someone tells him/her to pull their weight.?

No prizes for figuring that one out.

Unions would be better in my opinion if they told those work shy gimps to sling their hook and don't be wasting their time and concentrate on helping those who want to contribute.

Seth Brundle

Don't forget income from board memberships etc.
IIRC Begg is on Aer Lingus & the Central bank!

FlutterinBantam

You are correct Sir.

lmimmfn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Unions would be better in my opinion if they told those work shy gimps to sling their hook and don't be wasting their time and concentrate on helping those who want to contribute.

Thats not the unions job, thats the employers job, the problem is unions have far too much power in this country, theyre effectively a monopoly and even the irish constitution forbids this( how eircon got through ill never know ) without giving context of course, they should come under competition law as per regular companies.

brianthebard

How can Unions be a monopoly if there are several different unions in different sectors of business? Secondary school teachers are represented by at least 3 I think.

lmimmfn

brianthebard wrote: »

How can Unions be a monopoly if there are several different unions in different sectors of business? Secondary school teachers are represented by at least 3 I think.

there is of course,( ITU, TUI etc. ), but theyre sector based and some like siptu encompass several sectors. The simple fact that theyre sector based means they can monopolise, monopolies are sector based. I will admit that the teachers unions are slightly different but those tossers are out at the earliest opportunity and when one is on strike the rest follow straight away.

If i was in charge( lol ) then based on labour court rulings they should also decide if the employees while on strike should repay monies lost due to damage caused by their strike and the individuals have to pay it back over a period of time.

FlutterinBantam

lmimmfn wrote: »

Thats not the unions job, thats the employers job, the problem is unions have far too much power in this country, theyre effectively a monopoly and even the irish constitution forbids this( how eircon got through ill never know ) without giving context of course, they should come under competition law as per regular companies.

Never said it was the Unions job.

Yet they keep defending the indefensible, wasting thousands of man hours on wasters who should never be tolerated either by Unions or Mngmt.

That's where they fall down.

lmimmfn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Never said it was the Unions job.

Yet they keep defending the indefensible, wasting thousands of man hours on wasters who should never be tolerated either by Unions or Mngmt.

That's where they fall down.

i agree, the "what about me and my pet hamster" mentality, i.e. bringing up the most irrevalent crap.

Theyre too powerful, end of story and will listen to any old $hit, look at the crap in cork where the driver wouldnt train a new employee cos it wasnt in his job description and management dismissed him so they all went on strike, FFS in the private sector youre out, thats it, end of story, no job is laid in stone, were not fecking robotic atonoms

FlutterinBantam

Spot on there poster, archaic irrelevant issues which wouldn't be tolerated in any well run company.

Unfortunately as long as we have left wing "heroes" of the Michael D Higgins mentality this kind of bulldust will always have credence.

In other words, "I don't give a **** who pays for it as long as I don't."

A lot of these war horses should ask themselves this question.

"If I ran a small business ,would I employ a person like me?"

:cool:

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Never said it was the Unions job.

Yet they keep defending the indefensible, wasting thousands of man hours on wasters who should never be tolerated either by Unions or Mngmt.

That's where they fall down.

Do you have any actual examples or is this just a rant?

lmimmfn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

"If I ran a small business ,would I employ a person like me?"

that my friend is verging on one of the most important questions that every person employed in ireland should ask themselves every day and its:
"If i consider myself a subcontractor of my position, am i providing value for my employment?"
I continually ask myself this question and try my best to provide value for money, i.e. that my net contribution exceeds profitibility made on my results.

FlutterinBantam

Plenty, but privacy regs prohibit me from expanding.

Are you for real?

I am a "C" status executive running a large business and you expect me to post up examples on a public forum.?

Anyone who has any experience in commercial life in state or semi state companies can tell you that.

We just can't post it in the frikken internet.

lmimmfn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I am a "C" status executive

sorry off topic, but what does C status executive mean?

FlutterinBantam

Chief exec.

lmimmfn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Chief exec.

ahh right, not familiar with that lingo( and will freely admit it ) but if your employees are unionised by one of the large unions then i feel sorry for you.

FlutterinBantam

There you go, lots of man hours lost in the HR Dept. with whiners and wasters who just bed in, and draw their wages ,completely forgetting that they must PRODUCE something to justify that.

Mick O' Leary had it right, from the outset he was dead against Unions and fought a very hard battle to keep them out.

The results are plain to see.

Now proper Union/Company interaction is good, but from my experience the shop floor is always hijacked by the war horses and vested interest people and the genuine worker is subsumed into the morass of turgid meeting after meeting .

That has been my experience anyway.

mikemac

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Chief exec.

Ah, I wasn't familiar with C Exec
I was thinking it was less then an A or B exec
You know, like a Z list celebrity

If you're negotiating with unions and trying to run a company then fair play, not everyone is cut out for that.
Having been a shop floor worker just saying that the majority just want to get on and do well in their job but it's loudest workers who get noticed and drive agendas.
If you see the union calling demanding certain points, it's not that everyone is demanding them. It's just that many won't or can't speak up, hey you can hardly blame them. Go against a union and you're a "lackey", go against a strike and you're a "scab"
Takes a brave person to go against the grain, I'm not one, I'll admit that

FlutterinBantam

Indeed.

I was referring mainly to unions backing recalcitrant employees in disciplinary situations when it is as plain as a pikestaff that the employee is a total waster.

The amount of exec and shop steward man hours that are wasted in these procedures is staggering.

And the subject of the exercise will never, never, I say again, never justify a red cent paid in productivity.

Wear one out so it would.:(

meglome

On of my best friends is high up in a union (some arguments there I can tell you) and the story's he tells us just shock me. He openly admits he's more often than not had to defend wasters in the past. He doesn't bat an eyelid as that's what he's always had to do. Not that he'd accept they should be fired, he is a true union man after all.

I really admire Connolly and Larkin but don't try and tell me modern unions are admirable in the same way.

We are now in the toilet and our unions are preparing for strikes for more pay when many of their members are already comparatively overpaid. It really makes me angry.

Joey the lips

meglome wrote: »

On of my best friends is high up in a union (some arguments there I can tell you) and the story's he tells us just shock me. He openly admits he's more often than not had to defend wasters in the past. He doesn't bat an eyelid as that's what he's always had to do. Not that he'd accept they should be fired, he is a true union man after all.

I really admire Connolly and Larkin but don't try and tell me modern unions are admirable in the same way.

We are now in the toilet and our unions are preparing for strikes for more pay when many of their members are already comparatively overpaid. It really makes me angry.

Your hardly going to have anything postitive to say about your friend and the union if your annoyed. My best friend is in fianna fail..... Enough said

you catch my drift.

I still have not changed my opinion that unions are the responsability of the members if you dont take it on board you are not members you are sheep.

and look what happens to sheep!