Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

Scofflaw

#15 wrote: »

Jimmy, if the govt cuts teacher wages, will you be calling for the savings to be invested into employing more teachers?

Please don't avoid this question, a simple yes or no will do.

Bear in mind that jimmmy won't be able to answer that question for 3 days.

moderately,
Scofflaw

#15

Scofflaw wrote: »

Bear in mind that jimmmy won't be able to answer that question for 3 days.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I realised after I posted!

I will leave it there and maybe he will get around to answering it sometime.

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

Bear in mind that jimmmy won't be able to answer that question for 3 days.

Given that it is such a difficult question, it is as well that he has time to mull it over.

wolfpawnat

Well though Jimmmy will not be able to reply to this for some time, I will still say, it is a known fact that the Portugese nurse will be paid more to work here than at home, as it does not take €40 to fill a basket in Tescos with basic weekly supplies in Portugal.

I truly believe that if the price of living came down in Ireland and if mortgage rates were not crushing people, ALL Irish people would be willing to take paycuts. The only reason national minimum wage is so high is because the cheapest you can get a 4 pack of semi-decent toilet roll here is the same as getting a months supply of Charmins in Germany!:)

Damn Irish government!!!! I bet they have Charmins comfort deluxe in the Dail, and the tax payers paying for it!

P. Breathnach

wolfpawnat wrote: »

... I truly believe that if the price of living came down in Ireland and if mortgage rates were not crushing people, ALL Irish people would be willing to take paycuts...

I don't think so. We have seen many indications here that people in general seem to be in favour of paycuts for other people, but not for themselves.

wolfpawnat

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. We have seen many indications here that people in general seem to be in favour of paycuts for other people, but not for themselves.

Ok I should actually change my statement to ; people who be less likely to strike and give out about paycuts if it were cheaper to live here:)

Yes sadly there seems to be alot of features of to quote Animal Farm Animalism here. Except all areas of Irish society wish to see themselves as the Pigs:)

P. Breathnach

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Ok I should actually change my statement to ; people who be less likely to strike and give out about paycuts if it were cheaper to live here:)

Yes sadly there seems to be alot of features of to quote Animal Farm Animalism here. Except all areas of Irish society wish to see themselves as the Pigs:)

I'd go along with that.

What can be done about those whose income comprises fees rather than wages? Will lawyers, accountants, doctors, dentists, and their ilk reduce their charges?

Many other categories of self-employed, such as retailers or craft workers, will be experiencing income falls because of trading conditions.

If prices fall by X%, and incomes generally also fall by X%, the income reduction will not fall evenly. There will be a great deal of friction as new relativities are "negotiated".

dresden8

gurramok wrote: »

Okay, your explanation is the best so far.

In the table, what i can see is that the after tax deduction is about 3%-4% for most on under 80k, thats a paltry deduction considering most are overpaid (ESRI studies).

This reduction is in contrast to the screaming from the rooftops types who stated it was 7% when quite clearly it was not as those people themselves were quoting disposable income.

Benchmarking was also subject to Tax, PRSI and pension contributions on the way up. And also now with income levies and "pension levy". The disposable income part of benchmarking would be reduced, similar but opposite to the tax saving on the deduction you mention above.

I believe this is the third or fourth time I have called you on gross or net increases and deductions.

cyclopath2001

dresden8 wrote: »

Benchmarking was also subject to Tax, PRSI and pension contributions on the way up. And also now with income levies and "pension levy". The disposable income part of benchmarking would be reduced, similar but opposite to the tax saving on the deduction you mention above.

I believe this is the third or fourth time I have called you on gross or net increases and deductions.

Rough calculation: Pay cut 20% from a 50k salary, that's 10k. The government loses income tax, PRSI and levies (total about 60%) on that, so now its a net 4k saving. The worker cuts back on spending, so that's another 21% of that lost (in VAT), now leaving a net saving to the government of 3,200 euro. Since that 3,200 has not been spent in the economy, it loses tax and PRSI on the labour content that of which could be up 50% approx, making a net gain to the economy of 1,600 minus the cost of paying dole to the now-unemployed workers who've just lost 300,000 customers.

I think it's called a 'deflationary spiral'?

It may be necessary, but don't forget the downside.

jimcarver

To clarify a few things in response to jimmmy's opener, the article referred to did not say Paramedics earn more than hospital consultants. It said paramedics are in the same salary league as Finnish consultants. what type of consultant is Gemma the columnist talking about, the gardener in a Finnish B&Q or maybe the Finnish version of Eddie Hobbs, maybe they have an Olav Hobbs there. To set the record straight, there are no "ambulance drivers" employed by the statutory ambulance services in Ireland. The ambulance service provided by the public sector to the general public is carried out by HSE nationally or the HSE and Dublin Fire Brigade in the Dublin area, DFB doing so on a contract basis for the HSE. DFB paramedics are on a totally different pay scheme to HSE paramedics. All paramedics are registered practitioners on the PHECC register, Pre Hospital Emergency Care Council...google it if you are interested! The average industrial wage in Ireland is €32,000 we are led to believe. A paramedic on the last increment, which is after 9 years service, earns €38,666. The gross yearly salary with any allowances and overtime is approx €60,000. For this €60k you can expect to work 12 hour shifts on a 24 hr basis, two weekends a month, 21 days annual leave and not 50 and 60 days as some commentators will have you believe. A paramedic's pension on retirement is less than €100 per week. A paramedic will drive an ambulance 50% of the working week and alternate to providing professional care in the saloon, or back of an ambulance, the remainder of the time. Paramedics on a daily basis deal with life and what it throws. I am a Paramedic and have been for 18 years. I am proud of what I do. I believe i earn every cent of what i get. I appreciate the fact I have a job but like everyone else, public or private sector, my take home pay has been affected. I have assisted mothers deliver their babies into this world both at home and on the side of the road and gently cared for these babies in the first vital few moments of their lives, yet I am not trained in obstetrics or midwifery. I have sat and listened to deeply troubled psychiatric patients, yet I am not a psychiatric nurse or a psychiatrist. I have tried to smooth domestic disputes and I have spoken to disturbed people with knives pressed against their wrists and throats, yet I am not a trained negotiator. I have been assaulted on occasions and get abused regularly, and probably will be again tonight as I work a 12 hr night shift, on flat time, as no HSE paramedic gets a night duty allowance. I have lifted burned charred remains into body bags. I crawl into mangled wrecks to check for signs of life on sometimes mangled bodies. I have cut people down from their attics and sometimes I will just sit and hold the hand of an old woman as she tells you her life story while being transported. Before any begrudger or detractor gives me a violin to play, I will finish by saying this, I would not do anything else. I am angered by the spin doctors trying to drive a wedge between public sector workers and the average Joe Soap on the factory floor, wondering if next months mortgage will be paid. We all know that numerous nurses and other frontline staff have been laid off since January but no managerial positions have been lost. We all know where the blame lies, anyone that does not should just pull the duvet cover back over their heads.

murf313

jimcarver wrote: »

To clarify a few things in response to jimmmy's opener, there are no "ambulance drivers" employed by the statutory ambulance services in Ireland. The ambulance service provided to the general public is done by HSE or Dublin Fire Brigade in the Dublin area on a contract basis for the HSE. All paramedics are registered practioners on the PHECC register, Pre Hospital Emergency Care Council...google it if you are interested! The average industrial wage in Ireland is €32,000 we are led to believe. A paramedic on the last increment, which is after 9 years service, earns €38,666. The gross yearly salary with any allowances and overtime is approx €60,000. For this €60k you can expect to work 12 hour shifts on a 24 hr basis, two weekends a month, 21 days annual leave and not 50 and 60 days as some commentators will have you believe. A paramedic's pension on retirement is less than €100 per week. A paramedic will drive an ambulance 50% of the working week and alternate to providing professional care in the saloon, or back of an ambulance, the remainder of the time. Paramedics on a daily basis deal with life and what it throws. I am a Paramedic and have been for 18 years. I am proud of what I do. I believe i earn every cent of what i get. I appreciate the fact I have a job but like everyone else, public or private sector, my take home pay has been affected. I have assisted mothers deliver their babies into this world both at home and on the side of the road and gently cared for these babies in the first vital few moments of their lives, yet I am not trained in obstetrics or midwifery. I have sat and listened to deeply troubled psychiatric patients, yet I am not a psychiatric nurse or a psychiatrist. I have tried to smooth domestic disputes and I have spoken to disturbed people with knives pressed against their wrists and throats, yet I am not a trained negotiator. I have been assaulted on occasions and get abused regularly, and probably will be again tonight as I work a 12 hr night shift, on flat time, as no HSE paramedic gets a night duty allowance. I have lifted burned charred remains into body bags. I crawl into mangled wrecks to check for signs of life on sometimes mangled bodies. I have cut people down from their attics and sometimes I will just sit and hold the hand of an old woman as she tells you her life story while being transported. Before any begrudger or detractor gives me a violin to play, I will finish by saying this, I would not do anything else. I am angered by the spin doctors trying to drive a wedge between public sector workers and the average Joe Soap on the factory floor, wondering if next months mortgage will be paid. We all know that numerous nurses and other frontline staff have been laid off since January but no managerial positions have been lost. We all know where the blame lies, anyone that does not should just pull the duvet cover back over their heads.

well said

jimmmy

jimcarver wrote: »

To clarify a few things in response to jimmmy's opener, the article referred to did not say Paramedics earn more than hospital consultants.

jimcarver wrote: »

what type of consultant is Gemma the columnist talking about, the gardener in a Finnish B&Q or maybe the Finnish version of Eddie Hobbs, maybe they have an Olav Hobbs there.

Not an hospital consultant in an IRISH hospital. Or a Finnish gardening consultant. It referred to the pay of Irish ambulance drivers with Finnish hospital consultants.
With regard to the pay of Irish hospital consultants ,in his article in the feature in the paper, Robert Drescher the german consultant radiologist says he gets half what he earned in Ireland, after he returned to his German hospital near Berlin doing the exact same job, after his contract with the Mater came to an end. Also consultants in Germany work a longer official working week ( its 42 but comes to about 48 in the end ). Also, " in Germany, doctors are not civil servants. They are employed by the hospital, so they do not have the same security".

#15

Hi Jimmy, I posted a question for you before your banning. Its at the top of this page, it would be great if you could respond to it, rather than making a point and not bothering to defend it.

parsi

Don't hold your breath. Jimmmy just throws out accusations, hearsay, stuff he heard down the pub whilst three sheets to the wind.

These threads are becoming tiresome with makey-uppy facts being thrown around like confetti at a wedding.

International comparisons are fraught with difficulty - we can pick and chose example from other places that bolster our position and demolish somebody elses.

If we're going to compare with another country we need to compare the whole package - eg goods cheaper in the UK but hey they end up paying it back in Council Tax, petrol is cheaper here than anywhere else in Europe, teachers earn less in Germany and with it is a dysfunctional education system , public transport is generally better in Germany but with it comes your restrictions on shopping hours, Copenhagen is better value for nurses but has also has a tremendous youth alcohol problem.

My point ?

Our society is a result of the mix of a lot of things - you can't pick one of those things out of its environment and compare it with a similar item also plucked from its environment.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Jimmy, if the govt cuts teacher wages, will you be calling for the savings to be invested into employing more teachers?

Depends by how much. If public sector pay is reduced by 40% to the EC average ( as shown by the eurostat ) , then yes savings can be partly invested in to providing more teachers, better classrooms etc.

jimmmy

parsi wrote: »

teachers earn less in Germany and with it is a dysfunctional education system ,

The Germans would not see very much right with our educational standards. Many will tell you so in perfect English. Few here will be able to tell the Germans in German our engineers etc are better than theirs, or our native grown multi-nationals etc. Check our home produced cars, exports, roads, transportation system, political system and infrastructure etc;)

As the German teacher innow working in Ireland has shown, our teachers wages here are much higher. And teachers here get more holidays etc

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

The Germans would not see very much right with our educational standards.

Yes they would. You are wrong.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

Check our home produced cars, exports, roads, transportation system, political system and infrastructure etc;)

as opposed to our foreign-produced exports

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Depends by how much. If public sector pay is reduced by 40% to the EC average ( as shown by the eurostat ) , then yes savings can be partly invested in to providing more teachers, better classrooms etc.

Partly invested. So you favour taking some money out of the education system, is that correct?

Yes or no please.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Partly invested. So you favour taking some money out of the education system, is that correct?

Yes or no please.

Yes, shock horror, I favour paying teachers in Ireland less than they currently are. Why should they be paid so much more than the EC average when the country can not afford it ?

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes, shock horror, I favour paying teachers in Ireland less than they currently are. Why should they be paid so much more than the EC average when the country can not afford it ?

No, you misunderstand me. I know you favour pay cuts. I want to know what you would do with the money.

If you pay teachers less, do you want reinvest ALL of the savings back into education? Just a yes or no.

jimmmy

"home produced cars, exports, roads, transportation system, political system and infrastructure etc"

Absurdum wrote: »

as opposed to our foreign-produced exports

Our Irish educational system has not exactly been known to product world class "home-grown" manufacturing companies over the past number of decades , has it ? Most of our exports are from US and foreign owned companies who locate here because of our tax advantages, our English language and as a stepping stone to Europe. Not too many germans are coming here to learn from us how to run schools, build railways and underground transportation systems, design, market or make cars, etc.
Judging by those in the paper, most are astonished our public servants are paid so much here eg the hospital consultant paid twice as much here compared to when he returned to Berlin etc.

dvpower

#15 wrote: »

If you pay teachers less, do you want reinvest ALL of the savings back into education? Just a yes or no.

We are currently borrowing to fund our current account. There would be no savings. There would just be less borrowings.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Judging by those in the paper

:rolleyes:

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

No, you misunderstand me. I know you favour pay cuts. I want to know what you would do with the money.
.

borrowings should be reduced. Thats why the ECB has told our govt to reduce public expenditure by 4 billion this year, and a further 4 billion next year. The measly 7% public sector pay cut will only achieve one point something million....and possibly less when tax implications are taken in to account.

#15

dvpower wrote: »

We are currently borrowing to fund our current account. There would be no savings. There would just be less borrowings.

I know, I am trying to get to the point here with Jimmy. He won't answer questions unless I ask him one thing at a time. I have a wider point to make once he clarifies his position.
Sorry that its not so clear, its just a difficult discussion with him.

parsi

Today's Irish Times has an article which tells us that on 1 year in the 90's builder/land-owners made €6billion profit due to the way they controlled the land.

That money sure would be handy now.

However that profit is spent (by the builders/landowners) and now we have to pay for their losses...

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

I know, I am trying to get to the point here with Jimmy. He won't answer questions unless I ask him one thing at a time.

I have a wider point to make once he clarifies his position.

I have answered all of your questions. Now, what is your point ?

jimmmy

parsi wrote: »

Today's Irish Times has an article which tells us that on 1 year in the 90's builder/land-owners made €6billion profit due to the way they controlled the land.

Have you a link for that ? Was it just paper money that was reinvested in further property borrowings ? If so, Nama now has that money. If it was money taken off the table, then tax was paid on it. Capital gains tax etc. The tax paid the public service.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

borrowings should be reduced. Thats why the ECB has told our govt to reduce public expenditure by 4 billion this year, and a further 4 billion next year. The measly 7% public sector pay cut will only achieve one point something million....and possibly less when tax implications are taken in to account.

OK great.
You favour pay cuts as a means of cutting spending and borrowing. Thats fine.

Now please stop acting like you care about improving the education system.
Your focus is on cuts, which is a different thing entirely.

Earlier, you said

Originally Posted by jimmmy
But if Irish teachers were not paid so much more than the european average, then the governments education budget could be spent on employing more teachers, thus bringing down the ratio.

but if we are going to cut pay to reduce borrowing, we wouldn't have the money to employ more teachers.

Your arguments are all over the place.

First you argued to cut pay, to allow more teachers to be employed, and therefore, reduce the pupil-teacher ratio (which would mean reinvesting any savings)

but then you argued that costs should be cut to reduce borrowing, which would mean no extra investment, no new teachers, no reduction in PT ratio.

Many people favour cutting costs in the current climate. Thats fine. But they usually do not argue for increased investemnt at the same time, which is basically what you have done.

You are saying the first thing that comes into your head.