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Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

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    #332
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    gosplan wrote: »
    Can't you debate this nonsense on the Indo's website or something.

    Indo doesn't like debate, as it turned off all comments some time ago.


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    #333
    soden12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 154 ✭✭soden12


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Nobody is criticising them, not even the nurse from another EC country who could not and can not believe how much nurses are paid in this country....up to three times more than his own country. Criticing the pay day their unions have negiotaed with our govt is another thing though, esp when we are borrowing 25 or 26 billion a year. Don't shoot the messenger..

    Fair play to you jimmmy.

    You're the same down the pub - not afraid to stand up and be counted.


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    #334
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Never mind me. The two page article in the paper was full of facts, figures and quotes from half a dozen people who has experience of both Irish public service and the public service in their own EC countries. Hats off to them for being so honest.


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    #335
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    The two page article in the paper was full of facts, figures and quotes from half a dozen people who has experience of both Irish public service and the public service in their own EC countries.

    This thread has facts, figures and quotes from people working in the service of the public. But the Indo is gospel, of course.


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    #336
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Never mind me. The two page article in the paper was full of facts, figures and quotes from half a dozen people who has experience of both Irish public service and the public service in their own EC countries. Hats off to them for being so honest.

    jimmmy, if you want to discuss public affairs, you should learn to distinguish between anecdote and evidence, and you should learn to read critically -- particularly recognising when an author is advancing an agenda.


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    #337
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    jimmmy, if you want to discuss public affairs, you should learn to distinguish between anecdote and evidence, and you should learn to read critically -- particularly recognising when an author is advancing an agenda.
    P.Breathnach, instead of making another personal attack on me, you should learn to go for the ball, not the player. Do you think the half a dozen people who were photographed and had lengthy articles in the paper, and who gave multiple facts and figures regarding their hours worked, salary, holidays etc etc in Ireland compared to their European mainland countries, were acting out of self-interest ? When most of them were still working in the Irish public service. I do indeed ready critically, and when anecdotes and evidence are in agreement, I take my hat off to the courage to these people who disclosed their earnings, stand of living, taxation, cost of living, employment conditions in Ireland compared to their European country. A breath of fresh air. As one of them said , Irish public servants can go to other European countries if they do not like it in Ireland ( or words to that effect : the exact words were quoted earlier in this thread ).


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    #338
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    P.Breathnach, instead of making another personal attack on me...

    It's not a personal attack. It's advice on how to make an effective case.

    You give us a crock of ****, and tell us ad nauseam how great it is. It's still a crock of ****.

    If you want to prove something, don't over-hype the anecdotal stuff. Give evidence, the sort of evidence where somebody conversant with statistics might say "yeah, that is persuasive".


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    #339
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimmmy wrote: »
    P.Breathnach, instead of making another personal attack on me, you should learn to go for the ball, not the player.

    ...in addition, you might learn to distinguish between a personal attack, and an attack on your methodology, or lack thereof.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    Do you think the half a dozen people who were photographed and had lengthy articles in the paper, and who gave multiple facts and figures regarding their hours worked, salary, holidays etc etc in Ireland compared to their European mainland countries, were acting out of self-interest ?

    You do know what a biased sample is, I trust?


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    #340
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Give evidence, the sort of evidence where somebody conversant with statistics might say "yeah, that is persuasive".
    In the same paper there was reference to the Eurostat findings that Irish public sector pay is 40% higher than the EC average. You ignore that. However, the human angle is what was interesting in the paper, and it refreshes ones faith in humanity to see people willing to call a spade a spade, to make sacrifices in their personal take home pay / career for the sake of the government finances and everyones long term good.


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    #341
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Nodin wrote: »
    You do know what a biased sample is, I trust?

    Of course, I see it the whole time. ;)
    The continentals are often remarkable people. Some germans are trying to convince their government to charge higher tax rates. If they were the highest paid public sector in the known world , and their government was having to borrow heavily, I suspect many of them would hand some of it back. ;)


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    #342
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    In the same paper there was reference to the Eurostat findings that Irish public sector pay is 40% higher than the EC average. You ignore that...

    Of course I ignore it, because (a) I don't read the Indo and (b) you didn't, so far as I can see, bring that point here with a useful link.
    However, the human angle is what was interesting in the paper, and it refreshes ones faith in humanity to see people willing to call a spade a spade, to make sacrifices in their personal take home pay / career for the sake of the government finances and everyones long term good.

    A bit of colour writing is acceptable -- but one needs to understand what it is.


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    #343
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Of course, I see it the whole time. ;)
    The continentals are often remarkable people. Some germans are trying to convince their government to charge higher tax rates. If they were the highest paid public sector in the known world , and their government was having to borrow heavily, I suspect many of them would hand some of it back. ;)

    No they wouldn't. You obviously don't know any Germans.
    No need to go making stuff up Jimmy.


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    #344
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    jimmmy wrote: »
    In the same paper there was reference to the Eurostat findings that Irish public sector pay is 40% higher than the EC average. You ignore that.

    Hi Jimmy, you're looking a bit silly here. You have repeatedly ignored lots of information yourself, including explanations as to how why our public sector pay average is higher than other countries.

    Of course it is time to lower it.

    But you're not really having a discussion on the matter if you just keep repeating yourself and ignoring anyone who even disagrees slightly with you.


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    #345
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Of course I ignore it, because (a) I don't read the Indo and (b) you didn't, so far as I can see, bring that point here with a useful link.
    Read the two page article in the paper. It will open your eyes.


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    #346
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    jimmmy wrote: »
    P.Breathnach, instead of making another personal attack on me, you should learn to go for the ball, not the player.

    Jimmy, thats a bit hypocritical of you. You were more than willing to take a pop at me, based on my job.
    If you can't take it, don't dish it out.


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    #347
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    #15 wrote: »
    No they wouldn't. You obviously don't know any Germans.
    I do actually, both here and in Germany, and I have spent time in Germany on 5 different occassions. Thats besides the point. Please go for the ball, not the player. This thread is what people in the paper had to say , including the German school principal, now working / teaching in Ireland.


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    #348
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    While interviewing 6 people who think that they have better conditions in Ireland is interesting, it does not say anything about the other 6 million public servants in Germany who do not think it worthwhile to move to Ireland. I am pretty sure you can find 6 Irish people who have found it worthwhile to move to Germany. Oddly enough the Indo doesn't seem necessary to have such an article.


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    #349
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    ardmacha wrote: »
    While interviewing 6 people who think that they have better conditions in Ireland is interesting,

    They do not just think it : they actually came clean with the salary figures , the number of hours worked, the holidays etc .....and compared what they earned in Ireland compared with Germany, Holland etc.
    ardmacha wrote: »
    it does not say anything about the other 6 million public servants in Germany who do not think it worthwhile to move to Ireland. I am pretty sure you can find 6 Irish people who have found it worthwhile to move to Germany.
    There are not 6 million jobs for Germans in the Irish public service - its hard enough for Irish people to get jobs as teachers, Guards etc.


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    #350
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Read the two page article in the paper. It will open your eyes.

    I'm not going out to look for a newspaper that I don't normally read, and is a few days old. If you want something discussed here, bring what you want discussed to the table, preferably with a useful link so that it can be verified and checked fully.


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    #351
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    If you want something discussed here... .

    It has been discussed here, over 24 pages of discussion. Nobody has disputed any of the facts, figures or quotes in the two page article .


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    #352
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It has been discussed here, over 24 pages of discussion...

    I challenged you on what you said about Eurostat findings. You are distorting the discussion -- yet again. Bring your evidence here, or give up.
    ... Nobody has disputed any of the facts, figures or quotes in the two page article.

    Given that large numbers have not read it (you failed to provide a link) and most responders did not address it directly, that means little.


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    #353
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I challenged you on what you said about Eurostat findings.
    It was not me who mentioned the Eurostat findings, it was in the paper in black and white.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Bring your evidence here, or give up.
    Maybe Independent newspapers have all of their articles online, I do not know. Look at their website yourself if you could never bring yourself to cough up the few bob necessary to buy a copy. What was reproduced over many pages in this thread was word for word extracts, figures, quotes - all highlighted in itallics.


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    #354
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Given that large numbers have not read it ...

    I am sure a lot of people did read it ; it is after all Irelands best-selling broadsheet is it not ?


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    #355
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It was not me who mentioned the Eurostat findings, it was in the paper in black and white.

    You mentioned it here.
    Maybe Independent newspapers have all of their articles online, I do not know. Look at their website yourself ...

    No. It is incumbent on you to back up your posts. I should not have to be your research assistant. You have been posting here long enough to know the rules and the traditions.
    ... if you could never bring yourself to cough up the few bob necessary to buy a copy.

    A nasty tone creeps in.
    ... What was reproduced over many pages in this thread was word for word extracts, figures, quotes - all highlighted in itallics.

    How am I to know if what you posted is accurate? You provided no links.


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    #356
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    How am I to know if what you posted is accurate?
    Buy the paper, google it, or else ask any of the many people who did buy the paper / see the article if any of the "word for word extracts, figures, quotes - all highlighted in itallics" were inaccurate. It was one of the main features in that Saturdays paper, which as I said is (as far as I know ) Ireland best selling broadsheet , so I am, sure a lot of people did read it. It was in the common domain.


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    #357
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Buy the paper, google it, or else ask any of the many people who did buy the paper / see the article if any of the "word for word extracts, figures, quotes - all highlighted in itallics" were inaccurate. It was one of the main features in that Saturdays paper, which as I said is (as far as I know ) Ireland best selling broadsheet , so I am, sure a lot of people did read it. It was in the common domain.

    Back up your posts.


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    #358
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    read the 2 page article in the paper, Never mind me or what I say. See what the 6 or 7 people over those 2 page say. Go for the ball, not the player.


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    #359
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    read the 2 page article in the paper, Never mind me or what I say. See what the 6 or 7 people over those 2 page say.

    Back up your posts.
    Go for the ball, not the player.

    If you think I am going for you, report my post. Otherwise withdraw your innuendo.


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    #360
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

    the difference is we're Irish :o


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    #361
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Back up your posts.

    As far as I can see, Jimmy has provided the information of where exactly he is taking his information from.

    There is no requirement in the charter or anywhere else to always provide an online source.

    You've been told where in the public domain, no less, the information comes from. That meets any reasonable requirement of supplying sources.

    Now you and jimmy both....stop the bickering.


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