Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Are you planning to publish a new economic theory?

I'm pretty sure what Jimmmy posted is a very old economic theory..
Based on the common sense!

beeno67

irish_bob wrote: »

one thing that should always be remembered though , the cost of living never ever makes the 1st move which is why wages need to fall 1st

Although at present prices have fallen 6% this year. Wages haven't fallen that much.

irish_bob

beeno67 wrote: »

Although at present prices have fallen 6% this year. Wages haven't fallen that much.

depends on what criteria you use , a couple of hundred thousand people have lost thier jobs , that to me is a pretty large pay cut , tradesman costs have fallen sharply in the past year , a hell of a lot more than 6%

jimmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

depends on what criteria you use , a couple of hundred thousand people have lost thier jobs , that to me is a pretty large pay cut , tradesman costs have fallen sharply in the past year , a hell of a lot more than 6%

+1. Farmers incomes are down 40 or 50% according to some, and many self employed have little or no income ( from tradesmen to auctioneers to salesmen to architects to sellers of luxury goods to boatbuilders to people who do decking to b+b owners to people making/selling furniture etc etc ).

Riskymove

irish_bob wrote: »

depends on what criteria you use , a couple of hundred thousand people have lost thier jobs , that to me is a pretty large pay cut , tradesman costs have fallen sharply in the past year , a hell of a lot more than 6%

+1. Farmers incomes are down 40 or 50% according to some, and many self employed have little or no income ( from tradesmen to auctioneers to salesmen to architects to sellers of luxury goods to boatbuilders to people who do decking to b+b owners to people making/selling furniture etc etc ).

if these two things are true then why is the cost of living not coming down more?

increasing wages and wellfare results in an increased cost of living just like reduced wages and wellfare results in reduced cost of living , its all about purchasing power

The CPI that indicated a 6% decrease was essentially based on house prices wasn't it?

there were a range on increases/decreases in various sectors IIRC

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

I'm pretty sure what Jimmmy posted is a very old economic theory..
Based on the common sense!

Some old economic theory:
- Suppose I run a business that makes garden gates, and I can sell them for €150 a pair, making a profit of €20.
- Then labour costs fall cutting my costs by €15 a pair. But the buyers are still willing to pay €150.
- I will, acting rationally in my own self-interest, continue to sell at €150, and be happy to pocket the higher profit.

Market prices tend not to follow labour prices downwards. The converse -- that labour prices can be driven down by market prices for goods and services -- is a more believable scenario. We are seeing a good deal of that at the moment.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Some old economic theory:
- Suppose I run a business that makes garden gates, and I can sell them for €150 a pair, making a profit of €20.
- Then labour costs fall cutting my costs by €15 a pair. But the buyers are still willing to pay €150.
- I will, acting rationally in my own self-interest, continue to sell at €150, and be happy to pocket the higher profit.

Market prices tend not to follow labour prices downwards. The converse -- that labour prices can be driven down by market prices for goods and services -- is a more believable scenario. We are seeing a good deal of that at the moment.

I'll keep it simple.
You are assuming that the demand for the gates will remain high enough at the original price... in that case, make your profit margin bigger. If others who wanted your gates can no longer afford them, due to their lower wages, let them by cheaper gates.

Market adjustment does not always mean a drop in all prices. It means a market shift to cheaper items of the same type!

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

I'll keep it simple.
You are assuming that the demand for the gates will remain high enough at the original price... in that case, make your profit margin bigger. If others who wanted your gates can no longer afford them, due to their lower wages, let them by cheaper gates.

Market adjustment does not always mean a drop in all prices. It means a market shift to cheaper items of the same type!

That's not keeping it simple, that's bringing in other factors that I didn't bring in because they do not touch on the core question that I was addressing: that labour prices are largely derived from the market for the goods and services that the labour produces.

If wages had been reduced in the construction industry when the market was high, the price of property would not have fallen as a result. Now that the market for new builds has collapsed, wages have gone way down. Wages tend to follow the market, not to lead it.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's not keeping it simple, that's bringing in other factors that I didn't bring in because they do not touch on the core question that I was addressing: that labour prices are largely derived from the market for the goods and services that the labour produces.

If wages had been reduced in the construction industry when the market was high, the price of property would not have fallen as a result. Now that the market for new builds has collapsed, wages have gone way down. Wages tend to follow the market, not to lead it.

In the construction sector, I fully agree with you. No one knows how to turn a profit like a builder!
But I do think my example was simple!

Tipp Man

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Some old economic theory:
- Suppose I run a business that makes garden gates, and I can sell them for €150 a pair, making a profit of €20.
- Then labour costs fall cutting my costs by €15 a pair. But the buyers are still willing to pay €150.
- I will, acting rationally in my own self-interest, continue to sell at €150, and be happy to pocket the higher profit.

Market prices tend not to follow labour prices downwards. The converse -- that labour prices can be driven down by market prices for goods and services -- is a more believable scenario. We are seeing a good deal of that at the moment.

Hold on now, if you cut the wages of your staff by 15, and your staff are consumers of gates then their purchasing power has fallen and they cannot afford to pay 150 for the gate so your assumption that the buyers are still willing to pay 150 is flawed, to sell you have to drop your prices to a level that they can afford at their new wage, so wages fall, prices fall. Conversly then you obviously don't agree that the huge wage increases in the PS contributed to our country becoming 1 of the most expensive in the world until recently??

I would disagree fundamentally with your last paragraph, we can see prices falling in this country as the purchasing power of people is dimishing. Why is the purchasing power fallen, well wage cuts, loss of wages (unemployment), higher taxes. Market prices are a combination of what a person is willing to pay for a good combined with how cheap it can be produced

optocynic

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hold on now, if you cut the wages of your staff to 15 from 20, and your staff are consumers of gates then their purchasing power has fallen and they cannot afford to pay 150 for the gate so your assumption that the buyers are still willing to pay 150 is flawed, to sell you have to drop your prices to a level that they can afford at their new wage of 15, so wages fall, prices fall

Actually, I'm not a bog fan of that arguement, that cutting PS pay will affect ALL prices.

To keep your analogy, P.Breathnach would still have a market for his gates, but it may be a bit smaller, and his gates would be seen as 'designer' or 'elite'... his workers would have to buy their gates in Lidl.

Isn't that the kind of market adjustment that would happen?

jimmmy

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hold on now, if you cut the wages of your staff to 15 from 20, and your staff are consumers of gates then their purchasing power has fallen and they cannot afford to pay 150 for the gate so your assumption that the buyers are still willing to pay 150 is flawed, to sell you have to drop your prices to a level that they can afford at their new wage of 15, so wages fall, prices fall

Plus you have plenty of competitors - sometimes people who you even let go + who set up now on their own - who find they can make gates for 110 or 120, and are happy to take 125 for them rather than get nothing at all. People who phone around + look on the internet for gates will call your ones a rip off @ 150. And to cap it all Lidl or Homebase or some co-op will buy in a container load of gates from China and sell them for 50 euro + still make money. Then you get a few bills for electricity ( 2nd most expensive if not the most expensive in Europe ), rates, water charges, vat, etc, rent, accountancy fees etc. Ever wonder why there are so many small Irish ( indigineous ) manufacturing firms left ? Been there, made the t-shirt, worn it, sold it. Never again. My advice to a bright 15 year old ; either emigrate or else do not study hard, join the Guards / public service, do not work 70 hour weeks, take holidays, do not re-invest your meagre profits back in to your livliihood, take sickies, get a pension, have no strees and retire at 50. Sorry for being so cynical but I am expressing the opinion of dozens of people I know who have seen decades of hard work + provisions of pension wiped out.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Plus you have plenty of competitors - sometimes people who you even let go + who set up now on their own - who find they can make gates for 110 or 120, and are happy to take 125 for them rather than get nothing at all. People who phone around + look on the internet for gates will call your ones a rip off @ 150. And to cap it all Lidl or Homebase or some co-op will buy in a container load of gates from China and sell them for 50 euro + still make money. Then you get a few bills for electricity ( 2nd most expensive if not the most expensive in Europe ), rates, water charges, vat, etc, rent, accountancy fees etc. Ever wonder why there are so many small Irish ( indigineous ) manufacturing firms left ? Been there, made the t-shirt, worn it, sold it. Never again. My advice to a bright 15 year old ; either emigrate or else do not study hard, join the Guards / public service, do not work 70 hour weeks, take holidays, do not re-invest your meagre profits back in to your livliihood, take sickies, get a pension, have no strees and retire at 50. Sorry for being so cynical but I am expressing the opinion of dozens of people I know who have seen decades of hard work + provisions of pension wiped out.

That's the throwing handfuls of dust approach to economic argument: blind people to the core argument.

And then have another pop at the public service.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Suppose I run a business that makes garden gates, and I can sell them for €150 a pair, making a profit of €20.
- Then labour costs fall cutting my costs by €15 a pair. But the buyers are still willing to pay €150.

Good luck with your business making garden gates : I suspect if conditions are such that your costs decrease by 15 euro, your competitors will suss that and adjust prices accordingly. Welcome to the real world.

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

My advice to a bright 15 year old ; either emigrate or else do not study hard, join the Guards / public service, do not work 70 hour weeks, take holidays, do not re-invest your meagre profits back in to your livliihood, take sickies, get a pension, have no strees and retire at 50.

What a rant!

First you can't join the public service till you are 18 and you need a leaving cert and if you plan to specialise in any of the depts you need a degree first (90% of the Public Service).

Who on earth retires at 50 in Public Service (besides the police)?

jimmmy wrote: »

Sorry for being so cynical but I am expressing the opinion of dozens of people I know who have seen decades of hard work + provisions of pension wiped out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence , but which cannot be proved with that evidence. It is normally a subjective statement and may be the result of an emotion or an interpretation of facts; people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts.

omahaid

S.L.F wrote: »

What a rant!

First you can't join the public service till you are 18 and you need a leaving cert and if you plan to specialise in any of the depts you need a degree first (90% of the Public Service).

Who on earth retires at 50 in Public Service (besides the police)?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence , but which cannot be proved with that evidence. It is normally a subjective statement and may be the result of an emotion or an interpretation of facts; people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts.

I find it kind of offensive that people opinions are dismissed so casually. Both my parents are/were public sector workers, one in the HSE and the other is retired from the Gardai, I have seen first hand the perks they have. I don't begrudge it to them but this attitude that everyones "opinions" can be dismissed off hand is very arrogant.

graduate

My advice to a bright 15 year old ; either emigrate or else do not study hard

You may have to emigrate but you are not are going to get a job in a university if you don't study hard!

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

First you can't join the public service till you are 18

I know that....the lads I know who joined the Guards dossed ( relatively speaking - I mean they did not study very hard ) at school between the ages of 15 and 18. No A or B or C's in higher level subjects for them, no need. Even if they had studied hard they probably would not have got A's or B's in higher level anyway, they were not academically gifted.
Now one for example is in his early fifties, with a 1.3 million pension pot, investment property etc....after an easy enough working life, as he says himself.

S.L.F wrote: »

and you need a leaving cert and if you plan to specialise in any of the depts you need a degree first (90% of the Public Service).

I doubt if 90% of the public service ( 350,000 people ) have degrees.

S.L.F wrote: »

Who on earth retires at 50 in Public Service (besides the police)?

Full pension is after 40 years service for most of the public service, 30 years for Gardai and 15 for the Judiciary.

Tipp Man

optocynic wrote: »

Actually, I'm not a bog fan of that arguement, that cutting PS pay will affect ALL prices.

To keep your analogy, P.Breathnach would still have a market for his gates, but it may be a bit smaller, and his gates would be seen as 'designer' or 'elite'... his workers would have to buy their gates in Lidl.

Isn't that the kind of market adjustment that would happen?

I think you've been given a couple of days rest but I'll reply anyway!!

Firstly I'm not at all saying that if you cut PS wages then ALL prices will fall. They won't. I was merely using the example provided

Secondly he has 2 choices with his gates either sell them at 150 as a premium brand or drop his price, remember if he doesn't drop his price someone else will supply the gates at the cheap prices

Tipp Man

jimmmy wrote: »

Good luck with your business making garden gates : I suspect if conditions are such that your costs decrease by 15 euro, your competitors will suss that and adjust prices accordingly. Welcome to the real world.

and this is the point, if you don't drop your prices somone else will.

jimmmy

Tipp Man wrote: »

and this is the point, if you don't drop your prices somone else will.

Exactly, I agree 100%. Thats why I wrote earlier :
"Plus you have plenty of competitors - sometimes people who you even let go + who set up now on their own - who find they can make gates for 110 or 120, and are happy to take 125 for them rather than get nothing at all. People who phone around + look on the internet for gates will call your ones a rip off @ 150. And to cap it all Lidl or Homebase or some co-op will buy in a container load of gates from China and sell them for 50 euro + still make money."

irish_bob

prices for retailers and business would fall even further were state costs not actually rising , local authority rates have actually risen in the past year , this incidentally effect less well off people in council houses but thats another debate

add to that the cost of electricity which while sort of private sector is run like a state outfit what with the level of union control and i might add 80k per year average salary , throw in increased VAT and the cross border flight of shoppers , i think most business are doing the best they can , the state is certainly doing nothing to help them

S.L.F

omahaid wrote: »

I find it kind of offensive that people opinions are dismissed so casually. Both my parents are/were public sector workers, one in the HSE and the other is retired from the Gardai, I have seen first hand the perks they have. I don't begrudge it to them but this attitude that everyones "opinions" can be dismissed off hand is very arrogant.

Where did I dismiss Jimmmy's friends opinions, please do quote the bit where I was offensive.

I quoted Wiki if you are saying their writing is offensive please give them a call :rolleyes:

jimmmy wrote: »

I doubt if 90% of the public service ( 350,000 people ) have degrees.

How many would you say then?

jimmmy wrote: »

Full pension is after 40 years service for most of the public service, 30 years for Gardai and 15 for the Judiciary.

So there are about 380,000 people in the PS so 14,000 are Gardai and say 1,000 are in the Judiciary,

*Licks top of pencil*

So that's 380,000 minus 15,000 = 365,000

So say 3.94% of people get to have very early retirement (and wrongly in my opinion).

So Jimmmy does the entire PS retire at 50 or not if it is just the judiciary and the Gardai then it is a very small amount of people in reality.

TCP/IP_King

jimmmy wrote: »

.. If public sector pay and pensions were reduced by 40% to EC levels, it would save the government - you and me - borrowing many billions.

I agree, but the problem I have with this is that while my kids education are reduced to the level across the water we still insist on pumping billions into failed/corrupt banks which my tax will be paying for the next 10 years.

paraletic

im a paramedic in the hse. NOT an ambulance driver. after tax i earn between 650 and 750 a week. (payslip in hand). others probably come home with less because i have a high tax credit limit 'coz my wife isn't working. some do more ot and probably come out with more.

I work in a very stressful, family unfriendly environment.

this thread went from a bunch of ill informed lies about our pay to a discussion on how to save our economy.
Only people who know what they are talking about are to reply to this post.

paraletic

Idbatterim wrote: »

can they not just hire civilians to be ambulance drivers? im sure a taxi driver would take up the offer, for about a quarter for what the current ambulance driver is getting!

we are CIVILIANS. But we are trained and qualified to help sick and injured people. and a taxi driver wouldn't deal with cot deaths, suicides, etc for 200 a week. (it takes 2 years to graduate as a paramedic and after 3 years qualified as a paramedic you can try out for the advanced paramedic program - a further 2 years to qualify as an advanced paramedic)

If you dont know anything - then keep it to yourself!

Anthony16

jimmmy wrote: »

There was an interesting two page feature in Saturdays Irish independent, featuring interviews with six foreigners who work or had worked in the Irish public service. They all compared wages with the public sector wages in their own European countries, and all thought Irish wages astronomically high,( eg double) in hospitals, universities and other areas of the public service. Other perks like hours worked , holidays, pensions etc were all out of line - to the taxpayers expense - in Ireland. Even I was surprised at what they had to say. Anyone else see the article / admire their honesty ?

Probably because the cost of living is quite low in finland,compared to here and they arent taxed much over there.Also,ambulance drivers have a tough tough job and provide a great service

Count Dooku

Anthony16 wrote: »

Probably because the cost of living is quite low in finland,compared to here and they arent taxed much over there.Also,ambulance drivers have a tough tough job and provide a great service

I afraid that cost of living is higher in Finland and taxes are much higher
Difference is only that Finish government is trying to give as much as possible to taxpayer and public servants in public are working for public, not for their own pocket

erictheviking

Count Dooku wrote: »

I afraid that cost of living is higher in Finland and taxes are much higher
Difference is only that Finish government is trying to give as much as possible to taxpayer and public servants in public are working for public, not for their own pocket

get real! Its the politicians who are corrupt . Not ordinary workers
PS why do you post in pigeon english?:):)

baubl

jmayo wrote: »

Jimmy to answer your original question ...

Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland ?

It's because they are ENTITLED to it.

How long have you being posting around here?
For God's sake you should know the answer by now

Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland


Where in the health service are there ambulance drivers
These people are paramedics, trained to save lives, not just a licence to drive.
I had the ambulance come for me, the paramedics looked after me brilliantly, one paramedics drove the ambulance while the other took care of me, reporting on my condition, plugged up to a heart moniter and oxygen, as far as i am concerned they saved my life, they are worth it,
Also that was a saturday night at 3 o clock in the morning, they work all shifts, calling on homes at the worst time of our life, I know if I or anyone in my household get seriously ill suddenly, I can ring 999 and have top people and professional people taking care of us,I would put my life in a paramedics hands any time, as that is what they are trained to do, be it a fall or else