Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

hitbit · 12-10-2009 11:26pm

We keep hearing about the high cost of wages in Ireland compared to other countries. The yokes who keep bringing this up always forget to mention the cost of living in "these other countries". You could buy a county for the cost of a 2 bed apartment in Ireland. The politicians in said other countries have to do a bit of work for an awful lot less waghes than the cute hurs up in the Dail. They don't get to run up 2 or 3 million in state jet trips to their mates opening days. I wonder are the politicians in these other countries related to or buddies with the local billionaire builders. Things are as they are in this little Ireland as a result of the greedy gits within and supported by the mentioned cute folk and no one else.

Hitbit

ronbyrne2005 · 13-10-2009 12:02am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We were rich, and we are rich -- just not filthy rich.

No we're not. Forget about gnp figures. Look at public infrastructure, rich countries like Japan and Germany have great infrasttructure, it is an asset on their notional national balance sheet, ours is much poorer. Look at the levels of non property assets held by countries on a per capita basis, likes of Germany etc have much much more. Look at the natural resources the rich nordic countries have, we do not have that.
Look at the high levels of private sector debt, we are much higher than other developed countries.
Our national debt is also spiralling and will be a very high % of GNP before the crisis is over.
Statistics using GDP are often quoted by unions to suit their agenda, GNP is the only appropriate stat to use.

We are rich by world standards but average or below average in Europe so cant pay PS workers the highest pay/pension packages in EU.

lmimmfn · 13-10-2009 12:14am

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Why don't we ask those lovely Finish consultants to come and be our consultants? Get rid of our highly paid people here and have twice as many consultants.

I think we'd have a hard time convincing anyone to come here never mind new foreign consultants lol

ghost_ie · 13-10-2009 12:39am

Idbatterim wrote: »

right so I take it that the driver is also a paramedic! exscuse the ignorance but nothing, nothing would shock me here! including paying a paramedic to be a driver and just performing driving duties! incase any of the other paramedics needed a second opinion on the way back to the hospital!

Not only is the driver also a paramedic, but in Dublin both members of an ambulance crew (unless they're HSE) are members of Dubin Fire Brigade who are rostered for ambulance that day. They might just as easily have been rostered on a fire engine where they may be called upon to risk their lives at a fire

cyclopath2001 · 13-10-2009 7:51am

ghost_ie wrote: »

They might just as easily have been rostered on a fire engine where they may be called upon to risk their lives at a fire

Or dodging bricks thrown at them by playful locals.

Diarmuid · 13-10-2009 9:08am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or dodging bricks thrown at them by playful locals.

but the taxi drivers/bin men/shopkeepers which work in the same locality would never have those issues.

itarumaa · 13-10-2009 10:05am

OK,

some facts, average finnish fireman/ambulance driver salary is 2 318 €/month with everything included (extra pay from nightshifts etc)

So around 27k / year before tax.

I really wonder how much that salary is in Ireland?

meathstevie · 13-10-2009 10:23am

I don't doubt that figure but how does it relate to the cost of living in Finland. How do you pay for healthcare in Finland ? What's the average cost for housing ? What are foodprices like ? What's car insurance like ? What about utilities like electricity and phone etc ? A hundred Euro in Dublin wouldn't do a lot for let's say a week's worth of shopping in Dublin for a family with two kids but how does that compare to Helsinki ?

Riskymove · 13-10-2009 10:40am

itarumaa wrote: »

OK,

some facts, average finnish fireman/ambulance driver salary is 2 318 €/month with everything included (extra pay from nightshifts etc)

So around 27k / year before tax.

I really wonder how much that salary is in Ireland?

I think the pay scale for (fulltime) firefighters goes from around €400 to €600 a week, probably before allowances

however very few of our fire services are fulltime (a couple of the cities I think); the rest of the country is mainly a part time service with people working other jobs etc

Amhran Nua · 13-10-2009 11:29am

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much is a mortgage repayment in Finland & how much here?

More to the point, how many Finnish public sector workers bought second homes/investment properties/got top up mortgages, contributing heavily to the rise in house prices? The perceived security of public sector jobs made them bank favourites when it came to handing out loans, and I'd be very interested to see exactly what kind of mortgages are outstanding among this class of workers.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Big mortgages to meet cost of grossly overpriced houses fuelled demand for more pay: yes or no?

No, there was no real relationship between house prices and wage levels, except in so far as record tax returns enabled the government to put more money into persistent costs.

ronbyrne2005 · 13-10-2009 11:36am

meathstevie wrote: »

I don't doubt that figure but how does it relate to the cost of living in Finland. How do you pay for healthcare in Finland ? What's the average cost for housing ? What are foodprices like ? What's car insurance like ? What about utilities like electricity and phone etc ? A hundred Euro in Dublin wouldn't do a lot for let's say a week's worth of shopping in Dublin for a family with two kids but how does that compare to Helsinki ?

I know these concerns are real for Irish public sector employees but they are irrelevant in terms of competitivness and economic recovery. To use that logic our failing export companies could go to customers in rest of Europe and say "lads , the cost of living and doing business in Ireland is so high i think you should pay me more than the psnaish or german company i am competing with". For better or worse the Irish people through their selection of politicians have voted for neo liberal free market economics where we compete with other countries and therefore must keep all costs in economy(including PS pay/pensions/capital investment) at around average EU levels.

Also as part of a monetary union we cannot revalue our currency to avoid cutting nominal pay. In real terms PS workers have taken big cuts in past(70s 80s) but inflation disguised it. under growth and stability pact we cant keep borrowing at levels we are for long, the ecb will eventually turn off the funding after markets have turned againt us and they will insist on draconian measures. Everything from PS pay and privates sector pay to cost of electricity(PS workers in ESB) to cost of groceries(falling a lot in tesco for me anyway) must fall to around average EU levels, as in a monetary union prices/costs in individual states tend to move towards the middle.

ronbyrne2005 · 13-10-2009 11:42am

Public sector here should not be benchmarked aginst private sector, let the private sector sort itself out, they should be benchmarked against public sectors in other EU countries of similar size and wealth (GNP per capita calculated yearly) and with an allowance for higher cost of living here but pay should fall with falling cost of living here. Why cant PS accept this ? We could also guarnatee no compulsory redundencies and a special fund to ensure no PS worker loses his/her home due to inability to pay mortgage. Why cant they accept such a scheme? Are they more entitled than the PS in rest Europe? I am not asking for them to be cut to Greek Public sector levels where new teachers get12k a year despite being a eurozone country, more like 24k a year rather than the 36k they get now(approx figures but reltively accurate).

dogbert27 · 13-10-2009 11:57am

meathstevie wrote: »

I don't doubt that figure but how does it relate to the cost of living in Finland.

Over the last 5 years I have been to Finland on numerous occasions and the cost of living is identical.

meathstevie wrote: »

How do you pay for healthcare in Finland ?

Finland has a higher tax rate and actually the government actually knows how to use that income and provide a good public healthcare system

meathstevie wrote: »

What's the average cost for housing ?

It's about the same as here. Helsinki prices are identical to Dublin prices. In 2007 a 1 bedroom apartment in Helsinki cost €260,000.

meathstevie wrote: »

What are foodprices like ?

About the same although in the last few weeks they have reduced their VAT rate on food items but increased the excise on alcohol.

meathstevie wrote: »

What's car insurance like ?

About the same.

meathstevie wrote: »

What about utilities like electricity and phone etc ?

About the same. They still import some of their electricity and gas from Russia but are looking to become independent with their energy by using nuclear power (I think they have 3 stations at the minute and are looking to build a 4th). Their tv licence is actually more expensive than ours.

meathstevie wrote: »

A hundred Euro in Dublin wouldn't do a lot for let's say a week's worth of shopping in Dublin for a family with two kids but how does that compare to Helsinki ?

It would do a lot less for a family with two kids living in Helsinki.

Sconsey · 13-10-2009 12:04pm

hitbit wrote: »

We keep hearing about the high cost of wages in Ireland compared to other countries. The yokes who keep bringing this up always forget to mention the cost of living in "these other countries". You could buy a county for the cost of a 2 bed apartment in Ireland.
<snip>
Hitbit

We keep hearing that crazy wages are needed so that people can buy houses...who says we need to buy these highly inflated houses, just rent FFS.

meathstevie · 13-10-2009 12:34pm

Sconsey wrote: »

We keep hearing that crazy wages are needed so that people can buy houses...who says we need to buy these highly inflated houses, just rent FFS.

Now that's the plaster on the wooden leg; guess three times what the rent for an expensive house is going to be.....drumroll....expensive.

jimmmy · 13-10-2009 12:48pm

In his article in the feature in the paper, Robert Drescher the german consultant radiologist says he gets half what he earned in Ireland, after he returned to his German hospital near Berlin doing the exact same job, after his contract with the Mater came to an end. Also consultants in Germany work a longer official working week ( its 42 but comes to about 48 in the end ). Also, " in Germany, doctors are not civil servants. They are employed by the hospital, so they do not have the same security".

The dutchman Richard Tol , who works in the ERSI said in his article in the feature " I get paid so much its ridiculous"..... ".in the ERSI we follow public pay scales " . He says when he came to Ireland he was offered 50% more than what he was earning at the univ of Hamburg.

The german principle, Uwe Stockmeier, , says Irish pay is 96,000 for the same job in Germany that pays 69,000. In addition, in Germany "the workload out of the classroom is much higher". Irish teachers " get three months all paid in summer , compared to only six weeks in Germany". He says " when I hear Irish teachers complaining , I can't understand why, I don't think they have anything to complain about at all." I think Uwe should know, he is after all principle of a school here now.;)

Similar comments from the Danish Garda, Christian Madsen, and the dutch uni. lecturer in Trinity, Jacco Thjssen, who says he earns in the region 75 to 80 k : in Holland it would be between 50k anf 55k.

A few Irish public servants have been saying things like the above in private, but lets take our hats off to these immigrant workers in the public sector. I admire their honesty and bravery in saying things as they are.
As one of them says " I'm not sure the people you hear whinging on TV and radio are strongly representative of the public service, but if they really feel life in Ireland is so terrible, they are free to leave".

If some of our Irish public sector strike....would 'nt it be great if they could be replaced by public servants from the EC such as these.

ronbyrne2005 · 13-10-2009 12:59pm

jimmmy wrote: »

In his article in the feature in the paper, Robert Drescher the german consultant radiologist says he gets half what he earned in Ireland, after he returned to his German hospital near Berlin doing the exact same job, after his contract with the Mater came to an end. Also consultants in Germany work a longer official working week ( its 42 but comes to about 48 in the end ). Also, " in Germany, doctors are not civil servants. They are employed by the hospital, so they do not have the same security".

The dutchman Richard Tol , who works in the ERSI said in his article in the feature " I get paid so much its ridiculous"..... ".in the ERSI we follow public pay scales " . He says when he came to Ireland he was offered 50% more than what he was earning at the univ of Hamburg.

The german principle, Uwe Stockmeier, , says Irish pay is 96,000 for the same job in Germany that pays 69,000. In addition, in Germany "the workload out of the classroom is much higher". Irish teachers " get three months all paid in summer , compared to only six weeks in Germany". He says " when I hear Irish teachers complaining , I can't understand why, I don't think they have anything to complain about at all." I think Uwe should know, he is after all principle of a school here now.;)

Similar comments from the Danish Garda, Christian Madsen, and the dutch uni. lecturer in Trinity, Jacco Thjssen, who says he earns in the region 75 to 80 k : in Holland it would be between 50k anf 55k.

A few Irish public servants have been saying things like the above in private, but lets take our hats off to these immigrant workers in the public sector. I admire their honesty and bravery in saying things as they are.
As one of them says " I'm not sure the people you hear whinging on TV and radio are strongly representative of the public service, but if they really feel life in Ireland is so terrible, they are free to leave".

If some of our Irish public sector strike....would 'nt it be great if they could be replaced by public servants from the EC such as these.

Brilliant. Let see PS unions defeat those facts. They really havent a leg to stand on in terms of pay cuts given the CRISIS we are in yet to hear the constant stream of text messages to radio stations(probably envcouraged by union officials) you would think they were made to work 80hours a week for less than minimum wage. They really are in cloud cuckoo land in the PS with exception of those on temp contracts( a small %)

ronbyrne2005 · 13-10-2009 1:02pm

Jimmy have you a link to that article? This should be read out on every current affairs show. LAst night on pat kenny frontline no mention of massive medical sector salaries eating up all the resources so that sick kids suffer. Union greed is killing sick kids, NOT HSE freezes/cuts.

Riskymove · 13-10-2009 1:19pm

I can already forsee the defence based on the fact that we are talking about quotes from a Consultant, a University lecturer and a Principal

we already know about the issues with consultant contracts and the fact that Health and education are the major costs in the punlic payroll

the defence is likely to be that a Consultant, a Univeristy lecturer and a principal are higher level workers not representative of the majority of public servants

as for

Union greed is killing sick kids

have you ever thought of a career in the "Daily Mail"?

dan_d · 13-10-2009 1:25pm

The cost of living is far higher here than in Finland.

Doesn't make it right.But that's why.

jimmmy · 13-10-2009 1:27pm

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Jimmy have you a link to that article?

I have not even tried looking online, , but it is the full of two pages in last Saturdays Irish Independent. ( a Saturday paper I do not normally get or read ).

Dublin_Gunner · 13-10-2009 1:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

can they not just hire civilians to be ambulance drivers? im sure a taxi driver would take up the offer, for about a quarter for what the current ambulance driver is getting!

That would be great. Risk having our ambulances blocking a major thoroughfare each time they strike because they still aren't being paid enough.

God knows what the fare would be if the ambulance picked up 2 patients...

Sconsey · 13-10-2009 1:39pm

meathstevie wrote: »

Now that's the plaster on the wooden leg; guess three times what the rent for an expensive house is going to be.....drumroll....expensive.

Not really, even in boom times...example, a mortgage of 300K @5% interest (over 25 years) is a monthly payment of €1600 plus the cost of owning a house on top. By the way in your first payment of 1600, 1250 of it is interest on the loan, money which is just as 'dead' as rent money.

How much would rent be on a similar property? not 1600+ a month. People felt compelled to buy even when it did not make sense. 300K was not even an expensive house on 2006, so I no I don't think renting would have cost anything like buying, and people should have figured that out a long time ago.

tallaght01 · 13-10-2009 1:40pm

I am one of those murderers of sick children, so i may be biased. But comparing consultants in ireland with "consultants" pay in Germany is not comparing like with like.

The training to be a consultant in Germany is minimal. The standards are much much lower. That's not to say that healthcare in Germany is worse. But everyone gets to be a consultant, and it takes only a few years in Germany.

Ask any of the myriad of German docs here in Oz or New Zealand. They all come here to become consultants, so they can go home and work privately. People flock to them because they are trained overseas.

I'm still about 3 years away from being a consultant, and guys who are much more junior, and who I supervise, have already qualified as consultants in Germany.

Also, like I said earlier, the wage quoted for Finnish consultants isn't their actual wage. I've no idea what their training is like.

dogbert27 · 13-10-2009 1:46pm

dan_d wrote: »

The cost of living is far higher here than in Finland.

Doesn't make it right.But that's why.

And where is your evidence?

jimmmy · 13-10-2009 1:46pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I can already forsee the defence based on the fact that we are talking about quotes from a Consultant, a University lecturer and a Principal

Check the paper, there are also articles in it from the young Danish Gaurd ( who only graduated this summer from Templemore, but who says life is definitely cheaper here than in Denmark....he is stationed in Rathfarnham now. " There is no way I could afford to buy a car back home like I have here ". " If society needs me to take a pay cut, I have no problems taking one ") and from a Portugese nurse, Roberto Oliveira ( " The average nurse in Portugal earns about 7 euro an hour compared to about 20 here, although I know some who earn more than € 30 ". He writes : "Its ridicculous to hear Irrish nurses complaining about their salaries. They are the best paid in Europe")

.

So riskymove, the young garda and the nurse....not untypical public servants ....but yet you continue to try to waffle your way out of the facts. Are they really "higher level workers not representative of the majority of public servants" ?

If only RTE, the state broadcaster, would show the non-union argument( instead of endlessly letting the union fellas in beards do all the talking + giving their spin on things ) things would not be so bad. I read and reread the article in the paper several times...even to me its surprising some of what these people say. Its amazing to me how some people in this county still believe the union propoganda, and try to justify p.s. pay + pensions. Quote " Eurostats most recent analysis of state sector earnings across the EU found that Irish salaries were 42pc higher than the Eurozone average."...but its the refreshing honesty of the immigrant workers willing to go public ( with their names + photos ) which is most refreshing. Why are not most Irish born employees in the Irish public sector as forthcoming, at least in public ?
I think the Irish taxpayer deserves more than the union whinging, given our country is borrowing so much enable it to pay all those it pays as much as it does.

Riskymove · 13-10-2009 1:53pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Check the paper......

So riskymove, the young garda and the nurse....not untypical public servants ....but yet you continue to try to waffle your way out of the facts. Are they really "higher level workers not representative of the majority of public servants" ?

I dont have the paper so did not know there was a guard and a nurse...I did
not see you quote them

in any event I simply put forward what I could forsee as the defense...I didn't say anything (on this thread) or anywhere else disagreeing

you should really learn to digest people's comments before reacting so defensively

If only RTE, the state broadcaster, would show the non-union argument( instead of endlessly letting the union fellas in beards do all the talking + giving their spin on things )

funny I see and hear IBEC, Jim Power, Eddie Hobbs etc giving their opinions all the time

podge3 · 13-10-2009 1:55pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Similar comments from the Danish Garda...

Can you give us a quote on how much extra this guy is getting here in Ireland please?

ardmacha · 13-10-2009 1:56pm

Check the paper,

Why don't you post the link, then.

ronbyrne2005 · 13-10-2009 1:58pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I dont have the paper so did not know there was a guard and a nurse...I did
not see you quote them

in any event I simply put forward what I could forsee as the defense...I didn't say anything (on this thread) or anywhere else disagreeing

you should really learn to digest people's comments before reacting so defensively

funny I see and hear IBEC, Jim Power, Eddie Hobbs etc giving their opinions all the time

Yeah and they are accused by unions and PS workers of being evil rich greedy capitalists! Did you see the way Eddie Hobbs was shouted down on Pat Kenny's Frontline show ? He and Jim power have siad they receive lots of abusive emails from PS workers too.

Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

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