Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

jimmmy

tallaght01 wrote: »

But comparing consultants in ireland with "consultants" pay in Germany is not comparing like with like.

One of the German consultants wrote " Irish consultants earn twice what their German counterparts do ".

Also, remember about six months ago when a senior official from the German embassy made some comment about how his daughter was a consultant, second from the top in a large hospital in a German city.....yet ( he was amazed ) her salary was half what she would get in Ireland. I would tend to believe people like that.

I wish you good luck in you career , tallaght01 ( you wrote you are " still about 3 years away from being a consultant "). Having been to Germany 3 or 4 times in my life, I think we could learn something from the way they do things regarding their economy + healthcare.

Riskymove

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Yeah and they are accused by unions and PS workers of being evil rich greedy capitalists! Did you see the way Eddie Hobbs was shouted down on Pat Kenny's Frontline show ? He and Jim power have siad they receive lots of abusive emails from PS workers too.

Public servants recieve plenty of abuse too, tis the way things are these days unfortunately

but whats that got to do with it? RTE either have these people on or they dont?

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

I dont have the paper so did not know there was a guard and a nurse...I did
not see you quote them

I wrote "Similar comments from the Danish Garda, Christian Madsen,..."
I quote " Madsen, who takes home about €400 a week as a junior Garda, believes the conditions and opportunities here are much better than those open to him at home.".( bear in mind he only left Templemore this summer ). Madsen writes " For me, the conditions of my job are perfect".
" Life is definitely cheaper here ". " Its not why I joined the Gardai, but money-wise, you end up with more here than in Denmark "

97i9y3941

i assume its down to the cost of living that they earn so much,along with the factor of the stresses of the jobs,doesnt brendan drumm get half a million a year for been HSE boss?...

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

I wrote "Similar comments from the Danish Garda, Christian Madsen,..."
I quote " Madsen, who takes home about €400 a week as a junior Garda, believes the conditions and opportunities here are much better than those open to him at home.".( bear in mind he only left Templemore this summer ). Madsen writes " For me, the conditions of my job are perfect".
" Life is definitely cheaper here ". " Its not why I joined the Gardai, but money-wise, you end up with more here than in Denmark "

you only included "Similar comments from the Danish Garda, Christian Madsen,..." without any actual quotes in the original and i must have missed it...my fault

tallaght01

jimmmy wrote: »

One of the German consultants wrote " Irish consultants earn twice what their German counterparts do ".

Also, remember about six months ago when a senior official from the German embassy made some comment about how his daughter was a consultant, second from the top in a large hospital in a German city.....yet ( he was amazed ) her salary was half what she would get in Ireland. I would tend to believe people like that.

I wish you good luck in you career , tallaght01 ( you wrote you are " still about 3 years away from being a consultant "). Having been to Germany 3 or 4 times in my life, I think we could learn something from the way they do things regarding their economy + healthcare.

The point I made was that a consultant in Germany is very different from a consultant in Ireland. But, ya know....

Diarmuid

tallaght01 wrote: »

The training to be a consultant in Germany is minimal. The standards are much much lower. That's not to say that healthcare in Germany is worse.

So it's much harder to become a consultant in Ireland, you get paid more but the results are the same? WTF!

avalon68

tallaght01 wrote: »

The point I made was that a consultant in Germany is very different from a consultant in Ireland. But, ya know....

Well maybe we should adapt their model. Their health system is much better than ours - maybe it has something to do with having more money available to invest in the system as they aren't paying ridiculous salaries to their staff. Personally I feel our health service would benefit from larger numbers of lower paid consultants. How much money does one person need???

jimmmy

tallaght01 wrote: »

The point I made was that a consultant in Germany is very different from a consultant in Ireland. But, ya know....

Maybe if the Irish ones train in Germany and work the same hours, ( the German consultant said " the official hours in Germany is 42 but it comes to about 48 in the end " , then one day our Irish health service may be as good as the German one. In the meantime, the german consultant "Robert Drescher", says when he returned to Germany ( after his contract with the Mater was up ) he "gets half what he earned in Ireland ".( even though he is " doing the same job there".)


He also wrote " when my colleagues in Germany heard how much I was earning in Ireland , they say "how can I get a job like that ? "

I could continue quotong from the paper about what these 6 public servants say about Irish public service pay etc but obviously those with a vested interest in the Irish p.s. will continue to defend their pay. Every excuse and tactic under the sun will be used eg they are only the top earners....they are not a good a worker ....you are not comparing like with like....Irish prices are higher + I have my holiday home in Croatia + my empty buy-to-let in Leitrim to pay for etc

These foreigners with experience of the Irish p.s. system + the guts to say it restores my faith in humanity.

tallaght01

Diarmuid wrote: »

So it's much harder to become a consultant in Ireland, you get paid more but the results are the same? WTF!

Health systems are not all about how good your consultants are. For the individual, your care is dependent on good clinical care. But there are so many other factors at play, like access to healthcare in particular.

But, regardless of what way you would like to twist what I say, having better consultants doesn't mean you get better healthcare. It means you get better care at the time of treatment.

I've worked in Ireland, England, Scotland, New Zealand, Oz and South Africa. Irish consultants are the best, by and large.

Because of the standards required, there are fewer. There are arguments for and against flooding the market with German style consultants. But those arguments need input from those with an expertise in health systems. The HSE have gone with this model, and it may or may not be the right one. People on boards who are annoyed at high wages are entitled to their opinion, but no one is going to change a health system on that basis.

Quality or quantity is a big argument at the minute. The UK are going for quantity in the next 15 years. That's for political reasons, rather than health reasons, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

tallaght01

avalon68 wrote: »

Well maybe we should adapt their model. Their health system is much better than ours - maybe it has something to do with having more money available to invest in the system as they aren't paying ridiculous salaries to their staff. Personally I feel our health service would benefit from larger numbers of lower paid consultants. How much money does one person need???

Just saw this...the Germans spend more on healthcare than we do, and get slightly worse results than we do, or the same results for some of their health indices. It's not true to say they have better healthcare than us.

dogbert27

Wouldn't the Germans obviously spend more than us on healthcare seeing as they have 20 times the population?

alfranken

tallaght01, I saw the WHO list of best health services in the world, do you know what factors they use to judge?

irish_bob

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Jimmy have you a link to that article? This should be read out on every current affairs show. LAst night on pat kenny frontline no mention of massive medical sector salaries eating up all the resources so that sick kids suffer. Union greed is killing sick kids, NOT HSE freezes/cuts.

something that has always baffled me is how it never ever seems to register with the parents of sick children that one of the main reasons thier are not proper services available for thier kids is due to the fact that the bulk of health expenditure goes towards wages for nurses and doctors and of course surplus to requirement ( union backed ) pen pushers , theese parents would have more or less immunity from criticism from unions or health workers as no one would dare challenge the parents of sick kids

alfranken

irish_bob wrote: »

something that has always baffled me is how it never ever seems to register with the parents of sick children that one of the main reasons thier are not proper services available for thier kids is due to the fact that the bulk of health expenditure goes towards wages for nurses and doctors and of course surplus to requirement ( union backed ) pen pushers , theese parents have more or less immunity from criticism from unions or health workers as no one would dare challenge the parents of sick kids

I'd sy alot of these have to do with the nepotistic nature of Irleand as much as anything.

jimmmy

tallaght01 wrote: »

Irish consultants are the best, by and large.

Given you are 3 years away from being a consultant, it would be easy to say " you would say that , would'nt you ? "

If an Irish engineer says Irish engineers are the best, by and large, I would not accept it just because some Irish engineer said it. Or because Irish public sector engineers is paid double what German public sector engineers may be paid. Instead I would look at the standard of general engineering in the 2 countries, among other things....;)
Pay double the money, you do not automatically get double the quality.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

Check the paper, there are also articles in it from the young Danish Gaurd ( who only graduated this summer from Templemore, but who says life is definitely cheaper here than in Denmark....he is stationed in Rathfarnham now. " There is no way I could afford to buy a car back home like I have here ". " If society needs me to take a pay cut, I have no problems taking one ") and from a Portugese nurse, Roberto Oliveira ( " The average nurse in Portugal earns about 7 euro an hour compared to about 20 here, although I know some who earn more than € 30 ". He writes : "Its ridicculous to hear Irrish nurses complaining about their salaries. They are the best paid in Europe") .

So riskymove, the young garda and the nurse....not untypical public servants ....but yet you continue to try to waffle your way out of the facts. Are they really "higher level workers not representative of the majority of public servants" ?

If only RTE, the state broadcaster, would show the non-union argument( instead of endlessly letting the union fellas in beards do all the talking + giving their spin on things ) things would not be so bad. I read and reread the article in the paper several times...even to me its surprising some of what these people say. Its amazing to me how some people in this county still believe the union propoganda, and try to justify p.s. pay + pensions. Quote " Eurostats most recent analysis of state sector earnings across the EU found that Irish salaries were 42pc higher than the Eurozone average."...but its the refreshing honesty of the immigrant workers willing to go public ( with their names + photos ) which is most refreshing. Why are not most Irish born employees in the Irish public sector as forthcoming, at least in public ?
I think the Irish taxpayer deserves more than the union whinging, given our country is borrowing so much enable it to pay all those it pays as much as it does.

those people who believe nurses and guards are very well paid here are foreigners , you have to remember that most irish people will say just about anything when it comes to defending thier pay packet , swearing black is white would be a walk in the park

dogbert27

It's like when we so often hear that the Irish education system is one of the best in the world.

Well then why are the colleges and universities that teach us so far down the world rankings?

We must all be natural genius' to graduate from lowly ranked colleges/universities and still be one of the best educated workforce!

jimmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

something that has always baffled me is how it never ever seems to register with the parents of sick children that one of the main reasons thier are not proper services available for thier kids is due to the fact that the bulk of health expenditure goes towards wages for nurses and doctors and of course surplus to requirement ( union backed ) pen pushers , theese parents would have more or less immunity from criticism from unions or health workers as no one would dare challenge the parents of sick kids

True enough. The amazing thing on the RTE frontline programme is that that point was not really emphasised or understood on last nights programme. Anyone who would suggest it would be shouted down by the public sector. The honesty and integrity of the foreign workers in the paper impressed me.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

something that has always baffled me is how it never ever seems to register with the parents of sick children that one of the main reasons thier are not proper services available for thier kids is due to the fact that the bulk of health expenditure goes towards wages for nurses and doctors and of course surplus to requirement ( union backed ) pen pushers , theese parents would have more or less immunity from criticism from unions or health workers as no one would dare challenge the parents of sick kids

I used to think that your posts were unpleasant, but perhaps I was adopting too charitable an attitude. Do you seriously think that if the pay of health professionals were reduced, and the number of administrative staff cut, that the quality of health care for children would improve?

Why play the sad violin for sick children, but not for geriatrics, unless you are trying to sell your argument on emotive grounds?

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

True enough. The amazing thing on the RTE frontline programme is that that point was not really emphasised or understood on last nights programme. Anyone who would suggest it would be shouted down by the public sector. The honesty and integrity of the foreign workers in the paper impressed me.

i doubt even that unhinged foaming at the mouth loon of an ambulance driver would have had the balls to start screaming at the mum or dad of a child with a serious illness , the cretin wouldnt have got out of the studio alive , as i said , theese parents have total immunity

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I used to think that your posts were unpleasant, but perhaps I was adopting too charitable an attitude. Do you seriously think that if the pay of health professionals were reduced, and the number of administrative staff cut, that the quality of health care for children would improve?

Why play the sad violin for sick children, but not for geriatrics, unless you are trying to sell your argument on emotive grounds?

do i think if nurses and doctors wages were lower , thier would be more money to spend on essential facilities etc , yes , im not an idiot , i also believe if teachers took a pay cut , thier would be more money to be spent on chalk and black boards

oh and dont give me the emotional blackmail blather , the nurses and teachers unions use kids and sick people as pawns in thier games all the time

dogbert27

irish_bob wrote: »

oh and dont give me the emotional blackmail blather , the nurses and teachers unions use kids and sick people as pawns in thier games all the time

Just have to take a look at the recent IMPACT billboard

tallaght01

alfranken wrote: »

tallaght01, I saw the WHO list of best health services in the world, do you know what factors they use to judge?

There's stacks of parameters. But Ireland didn't submit full data for the last few reports, whih skewered things a lot.

irish_bob wrote: »

something that has always baffled me is how it never ever seems to register with the parents of sick children that one of the main reasons thier are not proper services available for thier kids is due to the fact that the bulk of health expenditure goes towards wages for nurses and doctors and of course surplus to requirement ( union backed ) pen pushers , theese parents would have more or less immunity from criticism from unions or health workers as no one would dare challenge the parents of sick kids

This is why we need people with expertise in health systems to have these debates. But, as an aside, you should ask a parent of a sick baby what we should be paying the staff looking after their kid. Quality or quantity....From a long career in paediatrics, I know what they'd say.

jimmmy wrote: »

Given you are 3 years away from being a consultant, it would be easy to say " you would say that , would'nt you ? "

On the contrary. I have the travel bug. I'll be an Ozzie consultant, as opposed to an Irish trained one.

graduate

Well then why are the colleges and universities that teach us so far down the world rankings?

They are not low, they are extraordinarily highly ranked given that Irish colleges and universities have feck all money.

We must all be natural genius' to graduate from lowly ranked colleges/universities and still be one of the best educated workforce!

You were well taught in institutions making a fist of mediocre resources. And Ireland educates a higher proportion of its youth, itself a higher number than other nations, at third level.

ronbyrne2005

alfranken wrote: »

tallaght01, I saw the WHO list of best health services in the world, do you know what factors they use to judge?

Irelands health care is great in my opinion. I just whip out my VHI card when anything goes wrong and luckily im in my 20s so dont be sick often. I even have a VHI emergenc clinic near near to avoid the kip that is the mater.

Forget about quality of doctors here or there, We dont have the money to keep nearly 400,000 PS workers the best paid PS workers in the world. Thats all. They arent being asked to loose jobs or do loads extra unpaid hours or work for less than PS workers in Europe only to move towards the average EU pay levels for the good of the WHOLE country.

jimmmy

graduate wrote: »

And Ireland educates a higher proportion of its youth, itself a higher number than other nations, at third level.

But the fact we are so far down in the rankings suggest we try to go for quantity, not quality. Maybe if Irish teachers + lecturers were not overpaid ( compared to counterparts in other countries ) our education budget would go further. Indeed one of the foreign academics had good reasons for the lack of quality caused by the higher wages in academic life here." He said " Academia is an international profession and it is really important to travel abroad and work in other universities but by paying such high salaries, the incentive to leave the Irish system becomes non-existent. You are tying people to Ireland and curbing their educational development".

tallaght01

jimmmy wrote: »

But the fact we are so far down in the rankings suggest we try to go for quantity, not quality. Maybe if Irish teachers + lecturers were not overpaid ( compared to counterparts in other countries ) our education budget would go further. Indeed one of the foreign academics had good reasons for the lack of quality caused by the higher wages in academic life here." He said " Academia is an international profession and it is really important to travel abroad and work in other universities but by paying such high salaries, the incentive to leave the Irish system becomes non-existent. You are tying people to Ireland and curbing their educational development".

TCD is ranked 43rd in the world, and UCD is in the 80s. That puts them both in the top 1% of unis worldwide. Both are ranked higher than, say, Georgetown uni, if I remember correctly.

Moriarty

jimmmy wrote: »

Given you are 3 years away from being a consultant, it would be easy to say " you would say that , would'nt you ? "

If an Irish engineer says Irish engineers are the best, by and large, I would not accept it just because some Irish engineer said it. Or because Irish public sector engineers is paid double what German public sector engineers may be paid. Instead I would look at the standard of general engineering in the 2 countries, among other things....;)
Pay double the money, you do not automatically get double the quality.

.. and given that you apparently have no qualifications whatsoever to back up your economic fetishism, I think it's fair to say that far fewer will listen to you, would you not agree?

It's pretty rich, but not at all unexepted from you since it's all you seem to do, to dispose of expert opinion if it disagrees with your assumptions. Your assumptions which are obviously more valid because, well, your dreaming stuff up is obviously more valid. QED, right?

You are the equal of those union reps who defend lazy workers so that they never have to concede a point, as if the cause will suddenly evaporate if you even quietly consider the idea in your head for a moment. You and others with your attitude are the problem - they're found equally on both sides, inevitably shrieking at one another and blocking out reasoned debate from the sober individuals in the centre.

graduate

Academia is an international profession and it is really important to travel abroad and work in other universities but by paying such high salaries, the incentive to leave the Irish system becomes non-existent. You are tying people to Ireland and curbing their educational development".

Where did this quote come from? Cite your source. Anyone can find someone person to say anything.

That puts them both in the top 1% of unis worldwide.

Exactly. People seem to forget that the republic of Ireland has less than 0.5% of the population of the OECD, you wouldn't expect any universities to be in the top 1% yet there are.

Even leaving aside TCD which has some historical advantages, UCD is similar in the Times ranking to Emory, Purdue and Georgia Tech in the US. Do you imagine for one moment that UCD has anywhere near the budget of these places or that its staff are better paid than in these places?