Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

graduate

Many degree courses in Ireland offer law with german, law with french, commerce with italian,german, french etc. If I was hiring a person with such a degree I would expect them to be proficient in both commerce and the chosen language. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Who says that it is not the case? Who says that Google etc. do not find useful people with Business degrees who spend a year in France or Germany are who study in that language during that year abroad. Perhaps the shortfall arises in people who speak Portuguese or Swedish.

if wages were not so high for teachers and lecturers then more money would be available to improve the system

Now that wages are introduced it will be interesting to see if the money is used to improve the system. More likely it will lead to further demoralisation of the sector, leading to poorer outcomes which will then be used as an excuse to spend even less money.

jimmmy

graduate wrote: »

Now that wages are introduced it will be interesting to see if the money is used to improve the system.

There is certainly room for improvement in the teaching of the English language.

ardmacha

Maybe if teachers put in the same hours + only took the same holidays as their continental counterparts that would help as well

Jimmmy, you keep harping on the same things regardless of the facts. I posted the chart below on another thread in this forum to refute a similar claim that teachers work a great deal less than other countries. Yet you come out with the same thing here again, you would do well in Sinn Féin .

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

Jimmmy, you keep harping on the same things regardless of the facts. I posted the chart below

Where did you get the chart from ? I see Germany in the chart is approx. the same as Ireland for secondary education....so why did the german principle, Uwe Stockmeier, ( who is now working in Ireland ) , say in the paper last weekend " In our school( in Ireland), we have parent teacher meetings in the evening which staff are paid for. In Germany you dont get any extra payment for doing that ". " Irish pay is 96,000 for the same job in Germany that pays 69,000." In addition, in Germany "the workload out of the classroom is much higher". Irish teachers " get three months all paid in summer , compared to only six weeks in Germany". He says " when I hear Irish teachers complaining , I can't understand why, I don't think they have anything to complain about at all." He says " Irish teachers get extra money for extra hours " . He wrote " Irish teachers have much better holidays than their German counterparts." I think Uwe should know, he is after all principle of a school here now.

ardmacha

Where did you get the chart from

Post a link to this famous newspaper article you keep quoting and I'll post a link to my chart.

I think Uwe should know, he is after all principle of a school here now.

No doubt Uwe has something to add to the debate. But this is the Indo, others who may have made other points would simply not have been included in the article, only those who supported the prejudice they were trying to prove.

Mind you I think the concept of being paid for parent teacher meetings is ridiculous and the small minded attitude of the teachers unions to this issue has done them real damage.

Tipp Man

ardmacha wrote: »

Jimmmy, you keep harping on the same things regardless of the facts. I posted the chart below on another thread in this forum to refute a similar claim that teachers work a great deal less than other countries. Yet you come out with the same thing here again, you would do well in Sinn Féin .

By my observation from the graph, and i stand to be corrected, the Irish Secondary School teacher is doing about 725 hours a year, wow i do that in my 5 quietest months of the year (so just the basic 36 hour week). Never mind that of the remaining 7 months, for 5 of them i do 45hours+ a week

It amazes me that teachers have gotten away so long with doing so little work, i honestly don't know how they can justify it to themselves. And then to top it all off they're paid a ridiculous salary, its mind boggling

ardmacha

It amazes me that teachers have gotten away so long with doing so little work

I expect that they don't, this is just direct contact hours and does not include grading, preparation etc.

The point about this is that in this forum certain people make all sorts of claims about all parts of the Irish public service being worse or working less etc than other places. There is a debate on pay levels, as these are higher for PS workers here than some other countries as pay is for everyone else in Ireland But for many sectors performance is typical of other countries, not perfect but not awful either. I wonder if Irish health is up to general European standards, or if Irish transport is up to general European standards, but I know that education is up to general European standards.

MysticalRain

Godge wrote: »

Google recently claimed that they could not get the required calibre of graduates from the Irish system and that they had to recruit from abroad. They also said it was putting their investment in Ireland at risk.

It might help matters if Google didn't have a rather arduous 8 month long interview process, or if they didn't automatically reject people without degrees - even if they happen to have 15-20 years experience in the IT industry.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Our education system has a lot to answer for, when many ( if not most ) people in the country are not even able to speak foreign languages at all. If you think an elderly French person or German or Italian needed help at a hotel reception in their own language, or in a restaurant, how many Irish people would be able to help ? Not only are our teachers paid considerably more than the European average ( as numerous surveys and reports have shown eg the one in this months Business Plus magazine ) , not only do they get double the summer holidays they do in Germany for example, but at the end of the day most continentals have to speak our languge, ( in general ) we cannot communicate with them in theirs.

An education system cannot teach a language.

It is simply not possible to learn how to speak a language in a class setting, the only way to do it is to speak the language on a daily basis with native or other fluent speakers.
No teacher can teach someone a language in three or four HOURS a week.

Do you have even the slighest idea about second language acquisition?

Just so you know where I am coming from. I'm a primary teacher myself. I am currently learning German as my girlfriend is German. She speaks 3 languages. She studied them in school alright, but she didn't learn to speak them fluently until she went abroad.
Of course, it is possible to learn a language without going to that country, but one must be in daily contact with the language.
She is also doing a doctorate in linguistics, and luckily enough, her parents are secondary teachers (in an oberschule), so I have some passing knowledge on the subject.

So I think it is fair for me to conclude that with regard to language teaching, you are talking out of your hole.

Secondly, I don't know if you are aware of this, but the cost of living in Ireland is much higher than in Germany.
I can get a nice apartment in Berlin for 250-300 euros per month.
I can buy a sandwich and a coffee for about 3 or 4 euros. I can get a big pizza for 5 euros.

So your comparison is false on that basis.

Basically, stop talking out of your arse.

By the way, I do support cuts in PS wages because I want to see a fall in our cost of living.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

There is certainly room for improvement in the teaching of the English language.

Indeed.

jimmmy wrote: »

Where did you get the chart from ? I see Germany in the chart is approx. the same as Ireland for secondary education....so why did the german principle, Uwe Stockmeier, ( who is now working in Ireland ) , say in the paper last weekend " In our school( in Ireland), we have parent teacher meetings in the evening which staff are paid for. In Germany you dont get any extra payment for doing that ". " Irish pay is 96,000 for the same job in Germany that pays 69,000." In addition, in Germany "the workload out of the classroom is much higher". Irish teachers " get three months all paid in summer , compared to only six weeks in Germany". He says " when I hear Irish teachers complaining , I can't understand why, I don't think they have anything to complain about at all." He says " Irish teachers get extra money for extra hours " . He wrote " Irish teachers have much better holidays than their German counterparts." I think Uwe should know, he is after all principle of a school here now.

It is 'principal', not principle.

Lockstep

#15 wrote: »

An education system cannot teach a language.

It is simply not possible to learn how to speak a language in a class setting, the only way to do it is to speak the language on a daily basis with native or other fluent speakers.
No teacher can teach someone a language in three or four HOURS a week.
.

Have to agree here.

It's nigh on impossible to learn a language without immersion.

#15

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Have to agree here.

It's nigh on impossible to learn a language without immersion.

Exactly. The few that can learn without immersion, are gifted anyway. The teacher makes no difference to such a person.

I wish some people would at least read up on the basics of second language acquisition before criticising teachers.

Even comparing French/German to English is ridiculous, continentals often have a huge amount of contact with English in their lives. This also provides a motivation for learning the language.

We have no contact with French/German, and no motivation/economic need to learn it.

ardmacha

I wish some people would at least read up on the basics of second language acquisition before criticising teachers.

I think #15 that you don't understand the idea behind this thread. This thread exists to allow people exhibit predjudice against people whose jobs happen to be provided within the public sector. These evil people, and not the bankers, builders and get rich quick merchants, caused the present economic difficulties. Logic is not the idea here, especially anything subtle.

#15

To be fair, I think there is a need to cut costs in the PS. But you are right, people seem to think the PS exists in a bubble.

I would guess we are near top of the table when it comes to social welfare payments, minimum wages, technology (look at iPhone prices ffs), food, rent etc.
And thats without mentioning how high our house prices went (I suppose that was the fault of the public sector too).

Like I said, reform is needed, but the hostility towards the PS is unreal.

Lockstep

#15 wrote: »

Exactly. The few that can learn without immersion, are gifted anyway. The teacher makes no difference to such a person.

I wish some people would at least read up on the basics of second language acquisition before criticising teachers.

Even comparing French/German to English is ridiculous, continentals often have a huge amount of contact with English in their lives. This also provides a motivation for learning the language.

We have no contact with French/German, and no motivation/economic need to learn it.

I think the teachers can make a difference but it's fairly small. I went to school in Brussels and the education system was almost useless when it comes to teaching languages (this in a school priding itself on it's nationality diversity and where you had to do half your courses in your second language), nearly everything I know came from hanging out with Francophones.
Right now, I'm trying to learn Dutch which is much harder; the Flemish have a great immersion for English so I'm finding the language much tougher (the Flemish all love English so like practising it, despite them all being pretty much fluent)

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Just so you know where I am coming from. I'm a primary teacher myself.

#15 wrote: »

So I think it is fair for me to conclude that with regard to language teaching, you are talking out of your hole.

Charming language from a teacher. What did I say about language teaching that so annoyed you ? Are you embarassed that you are paid 40% more than the European average, and that if the Irish ambulance driver ( who happens to be better paid than a Finnish consultant ) came upon a crash scene involving continental tourists, he has a much likeyhood of being able to converse in their own language as the hotel receptionists I saw here in Ireland recently who had absolutely no spoken French or German between them either ? Yet when we go abroad ( as many teachers I know seem to do on a very regular basis ), we expect everyone to speak English to us ?

Diarmuid

ardmacha wrote: »

I think #15 that you don't understand the idea behind this thread. This thread exists to allow people exhibit predjudice against people whose jobs happen to be provided within the public sector. These evil people, and not the bankers, builders and get rich quick merchants, caused the present economic difficulties. Logic is not the idea here, especially anything subtle.

you're painted all posters on this thread you disagree with, with the same brush.

ardmacha

you're painted all posters on this thread you disagree with, with the same brush.

A very broad brush is being used in this forum when the entire PS and everyone in it are characterised as parasites on the State (as occurred in another thread). But this is a fair point, two wrongs doesn't make a right.

The real need for proper decision making on getting the countrty out of the mess it is in is. This process is being endangered by unions and other who parrot simplistic statements to claim there isn't a problem and others who are more interested in predjudice than facts.

thebman

#15 wrote: »

Like I said, reform is needed, but the hostility towards the PS is unreal.

Probably because unions are threatening strikes every other day of the week.

dogbert27

thebman wrote: »

Probably because unions are threatening strikes every other day of the week.

And for pay INCREASES! :rolleyes:

#15

thebman wrote: »

Probably because unions are threatening strikes every other day of the week.

Fair enough, I don't agree with the unions either, they are living in dream land.
I don't think it would be bad idea if PS workers were legally prevented from striking, as in Germany.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Charming language from a teacher. What did I say about language teaching that so annoyed you ? Are you embarassed that you are paid 40% more than the European average, and that if the Irish ambulance driver ( who happens to be better paid than a Finnish consultant ) came upon a crash scene involving continental tourists, he has a much likeyhood of being able to converse in their own language as the hotel receptionists I saw here in Ireland recently who had absolutely no spoken French or German between them either ? Yet when we go abroad ( as many teachers I know seem to do on a very regular basis ), we expect everyone to speak English to us ?

Congratulations on missing the point again.

I will deal with your muddled thoughts one-by-one, as best I can.

Charming language from a teacher.

What? Are you serious?

When you stop talking out of your hole, I'll stop telling you that you are talking out of your hole.

What did I say about language teaching that so annoyed you ?

This is what you said ''Our education system has a lot to answer for, when many ( if not most ) people in the country are not even able to speak foreign languages at all.''

Anyone with an iota of knowledge about 2nd language acquisition knows that, generally, schools are not good places to learn languages.

To think that anyone can become a fluent speaker of a language without immersion or exposure to that culture is idiotic.

A big reason for foreigners having good English skills is due to their exposure to English speaking culture, and due to their own desire to learn it.
In general, no such desire is present here among the general population.
Nor is there any exposure to other cultures. We don't have Fench/German music on the radio, we don't have any knowledge of their movie stars etc etc etc.

Are you embarassed that you are paid 40% more than the European average

I am not paid more than the European average. I am at the bottom of the pay scale. I am still paying off debts from doing two university degrees. I am by no means well-off.

Also, teachers who earn 40% more than the European average should not be embarrassed. They live in a country where everything is inflated. When the cost of living comes down, it is only fair that they take a cut. However, earning inflated wages during a period of ridiculous valuations is, in itself, nothing to be embarrassed about. They have no more reason to be embarrassed than anyone else in this country.

I also believe they need to take a cut now, as the money simply isn't there (obviously) to pay them.
The problem I have is the way it will be implemented, the cuts should come from the top down.

and that if the Irish ambulance driver ( who happens to be better paid than a Finnish consultant ) came upon a crash scene involving continental tourists, he has a much likeyhood of being able to converse in their own language as the hotel receptionists I saw here in Ireland recently who had absolutely no spoken French or German between them either ?

It would be great if people could speak foreign languages, but they don't. They don't have to. Foreigners coming here (or to any English speaking country for that matter) are well aware that the likelihood of them finding a speaker of French/german/another is slim.

Its not an Irish thing, its a feature of the Anglophone world (Canada excluded).

I also do not think ambulance drivers should be paid more than consultants in Finland.

Yet when we go abroad ( as many teachers I know seem to do on a very regular basis ), we expect everyone to speak English to us ?

What has this got to do with the PS? or schools? There is nothing stopping anyone from learning another language. I'm learning German right now. I don't expect anyone to speak English to me. If I struggle to communicate, its my own problem, and my own fault.

You are talking about societal attitudes towards language learning now. This has nothing to do with the thread.

There are plenty of valid reasons for cutting public sector pay, including that of the teachers.
However, you have mentioned none of them.

The attitudes of Irish people towards learning foreign languages is not a valid reason.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

When you stop talking out of your hole, I'll stop telling you that you are talking out of your hole.

Charming language from a teacher. I hope you never teach my children / grandchildren.

#15 wrote: »

This is what you said ''Our education system has a lot to answer for, when many ( if not most ) people in the country are not even able to speak foreign languages at all.''

Anyone with an iota of knowledge about 2nd language acquisition knows that, generally, schools are not good places to learn languages.

So you think because I said ''Our education system has a lot to answer for, when many ( if not most ) people in the country are not even able to speak foreign languages at all.'' I am "talking out of my hole".
If indeed, as you say, Irish "schools are not good places to learn languages", then where would you suggest people get educated ? Why are we paying our teacher 40% more than the eurozone average ?

#15 wrote: »

I am not paid more than the European average. I am at the bottom of the pay scale.
.

But in years to come you will be paid better. I do not know about you personal circumstances but Irish teachers are paid much more than the eurozone average. Did you see the article in the Irish Independent last Saturday by a german school principal , who is currently working in Ireland, so compared the teachers lot in Ireland with Germany ? Not just pay, but holidays etc ?

#15 wrote: »

Also, teachers who earn 40% more than the European average should not be embarrassed.

Not their fault, its the government and the unions who should be blamed I suppose.

#15 wrote: »

I also believe they need to take a cut now, as the money simply isn't there (obviously) to pay them.
The problem I have is the way it will be implemented, the cuts should come from the top down.

agreed.:)

#15 wrote: »

I also do not think ambulance drivers should be paid more than consultants in Finland.

agreed

#15 wrote: »

What has this got to do with the PS? or schools? There are plenty of valid reasons for cutting public sector pay, including that of the teachers.
However, you have mentioned none of them.

I think I have mentioned plenty of them over the thread.

eg the money not there, overpaid compared with private sector, overpaid compared with public sector in other countries ( all other countries on " the planet", as the knowledgeable Eddie Hobbs said ), too many perks at the taxpayers expense ( eg excessive holidays, pension and in various areas of the public service other perks eg a paid half an hour to cash your paycheck, even though its paid by direct debit ).

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Charming language from a teacher. I hope you never teach my children / grandchildren.

I don't use bad language in front of children. Being a teacher has nothing to do with it.
I know plenty of adults who occasionally use a swear word, yet they wouldn't dream of doing it in front of children.
So please drop the 'holier-than-thou' attitude.

So you think because I said ''Our education system has a lot to answer for, when many ( if not most ) people in the country are not even able to speak foreign languages at all.'' I am "talking out of my hole".

Yes that is true. Look at my reasons again. I can not keep repeating myself if you won't read it or take it in.

Schools are not good places to learn languages, all over the world.

If you insist on ignoring that, it is clear that you are being selective in order to further your own agenda.

If indeed, as you say, Irish "schools are not good places to learn languages", then where would you suggest people get educated ?

Seriously, did you not read my post?

I did not say Irish schools. I said all schools. The nature of language learning means that large group settings (ie school classrooms) are very ineffective for language learning.

How do you expect anyone to learn a language in a few hours a week? Without immersion or cultural contact?
Are you in dreamland? It can not be done. In any country.

where would you suggest people get educated ?

In schools.

If you want to know where they would go to learn a foreign language, I would suggest that they listen to foreign music, watch foreign movies, use foreign websites, go on exchange trips, etc, just like anyone who wants to learn English manages to do it.

They get the basics in school, just like our kids do. The difference is that our kids don't do the rest. They have no exposure to foreign cultures, therefore no need to learn foreign languages.

My girlfriend learned to speak Englisha and Fench through 6 month exchanges in New Zealand and France. Like most of her friends, her parents financed foreign trips in order to help her learn the language. Irish parents don't put the same value on language learning, therefore they don't do things like that.

If you want to debate the best ways of acquiring a second language, read up on it, and come back. But leave it out of this discussion, its not relevant.

Why are we paying our teacher 40% more than the eurozone average ?

Because teachers lived in a society where everything was overpriced. Therefore their own wages were also inflated.

I amo not arguing that their wages should still remain high.

But as long as our cost of living is higher than average, isn't it natural that wages will be higher than average?

But in years to come you will be paid better. I do not know about you personal circumstances but Irish teachers are paid much more than the eurozone average.

No I won't be. I will only remain in Ireland if this mess gets sorted out, which means that we will have normal values on everything (cost of living, normal wages etc etc).
Otherwise I will move to Germany with my girlfriend. Her parents are teachers with beamte status and they have a very good lifestyle. They told me that they are considered to be well paid by German standards.

Did you see the article in the Irish Independent last Saturday by a german school principal , who is currently working in Ireland, so compared the teachers lot in Ireland with Germany ? Not just pay, but holidays etc ?

Yes I did see it. German teachers are relatively well off. He made a direct comparison, which was pointless. If you compare German teachers with their fellow Germans (rather than teachers in an abnormal economy), they are quite well off, even though they are paid less than the teachers from the abnormal economy.

Not their fault, its the government and the unions who should be blamed I suppose.

Exactly.

I don't support the unions at all. I am not a socialist in the slightest.

eg the money not there

Fair enough, thats reasonable.

, overpaid compared with private sector

I don't think there is any valid comparison for guards and teachers in the private sector. Nevertheless, I do agree that wages need to be cut.

, overpaid compared with public sector in other countries ( all other countries on " the planet", as the knowledgeable Eddie Hobbs said )

That is not a fair comaprison. Everything in Ireland is overpriced compared to other countries. Everything needs to come down, not just the PS wages. Can you not see that? Granted, private sector wages have come down, but there is still a way to go yet for everyone. Do you agree or disagree?

, too many perks at the taxpayers expense ( eg excessive holidays, pension and in various areas of the public service other perks eg a paid half an hour to cash your paycheck, even though its paid by direct debit ).

Is the excessive holidays in relation to all PS workers or teachers?

If it is for teachers, then what do you propose? That children go to school for longer? Extra support for weaker children may be an option, but that would be problematic for a number of reasons.


I don't know anything about perks in the PS, so I can't comment.
I'm sure all jobs have perks. Its excessive ones that need to be curbed.

Also, some people who work in govt departments could do with an attitude transplant, but thats another story.

graduate

so compared the teachers lot in Ireland with Germany ? Not just pay

Odd that the OECD shows German teachers pay slightly higher than in Ireland. But sure what would they know, aren't they a form of public sector worker, and so not to be trusted.

My girlfriend learned to speak Englisha and Fench through 6 month exchanges in New Zealand and France.

Oh Dear. Jimmmy will point out your typo and use it to show that the PS are illiterate.

ardmacha

Maybe if teachers put in the same hours + only took the same holidays as their continental counterparts that would help as well

Oddly enough these hard working Germans don't actually manage to give their kids as much instruction time as in Ireland, but at least they beat those Finns.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

That is not a fair comaprison.

Comparing pay with the public sector in other countries ( Irish public sector pay is higher than in all other countries on " the planet", as the knowledgeable Eddie Hobbs said ) is not a fair comparison ?

#15 wrote: »

Everything in Ireland is overpriced compared to other countries. Everything needs to come down, not just the PS wages. Can you not see that? Granted, private sector wages have come down, but there is still a way to go yet for everyone. Do you agree or disagree?
When p.s. wages and pensions come down from their levels then prices will come down more. There are still certain niches where I would like to see prices falling faster + further eg accountancy fees, doctors fees etc but that is another days work.

Yes everything needs to come down. Many things have come down already compared to a year or two ago. Deflation is what, minus 6.5% ?
Many people have had a cut in gross pay. Hundreds of thousands are out of work. Many self employed people have little or no income + cannot claim the dole. The price of many things has crashed.

ardmacha

Many people have had a cut in gross pay

Some people in the private sector have had a pay cut. Everyone in the public sector has.

The price of many things has crashed.

Which things exactly? Have prices been reduced as much as PS salaries?

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

Some people in the private sector have had a pay cut. Everyone in the public sector has.

I said gross pay.Has anyone in the public sector have had a pay cut in gross pay ? Them paying 7% towards something they will get later ( with a multiplied benefit ) is not a paycut.

ardmacha wrote: »

Which things exactly?

The prices of many things has come down. Air travel, food, oil, hotels, property, cars, electronic items, etc.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Comparing pay with the public sector in other countries ( Irish public sector pay is higher than in all other countries on " the planet", as the knowledgeable Eddie Hobbs said ) is not a fair comparison ?

No, not when it costs more to live here than in Germany.
What part of this don't you understand?

I'd be happy to live on German wages if I lived in a country that had the same cost of living as Germany.

There is a need for cuts in PS spending, but you are being dishonest by comparing it with Germany.

Yes everything needs to come down. Many things have come down already compared to a year or two ago. Deflation is what, minus 6.5% ?
Many people have had a cut in gross pay. Hundreds of thousands are out of work. Many self employed people have little or no income + cannot claim the dole. The price of many things has crashed.

Yes, and?

I never said PS pay shouldn't come down either.

Things may have crashed here, but its still more expensive than Germany. Do you think that everything should come down to German levels?
Or just public sector pay?

May I ask what job you do?