Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

murf313

jimmmy wrote: »

Charming language from a teacher. What did I say about language teaching that so annoyed you ? Are you embarassed that you are paid 40% more than the European average, and that if the Irish ambulance driver ( who happens to be better paid than a Finnish consultant ) came upon a crash scene involving continental tourists, he has a much likeyhood of being able to converse in their own language as the hotel receptionists I saw here in Ireland recently who had absolutely no spoken French or German between them either ? Yet when we go abroad ( as many teachers I know seem to do on a very regular basis ), we expect everyone to speak English to us ?

I cant believe your bashing PARAMEDICS (they are not ambulance drivers) now!
I would bet my right arm that you couldnt do the job they do!
Imagine everyday going to work and being called to a fatal road accident and having to try and resusatate someone. Or telling a mother her 2 month old baby has just died of cot death. etc etc

Is no one safe from your begrudgery and contempt for all the public service?

you make me sick......:mad:

97i9y3941

people in dublin get paided more than their country cousins dont they?

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

I said gross pay.Has anyone in the public sector have had a pay cut in gross pay ? Them paying 7% towards something they will get later ( with a multiplied benefit ) is not a paycut.

Thats's quite a dishonest thing to say. There's no change in their legal pension entitlement before the levy or after it. The law was quite explicit about it. And, if the government can levy pay just like that, nothing can be considered certain. So that could well be 7% towards nothing at all. Logically: it's a pay cut.

jimmmy wrote: »

IThe prices of many things has come down. Air travel, food, oil, hotels, property, cars, electronic items, etc.

Capital repayments on mortgages? And, once the main European countries start to recover, interest rates will go up. Oil too will go up and that ill feed into consumer goods and services.

gurramok

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Thats's quite a dishonest thing to say. There's no change in their legal pension entitlement before the levy or after it. The law was quite explicit about it. And, if the government can levy pay just like that, nothing can be considered certain. So that could well be 7% towards nothing at all. Logically: it's a pay cut.

I asked you before for a link pointing to the legislation where pension relief did not count and you did not provide it. You still get the money back on in later life.

Capital repayments on mortgages? And, once the main European countries start to recover, interest rates will go up. Oil too will go up and that ill feed into consumer goods and services.

Hence get the public sector cuts in now before the cost of borrowing skyrockets to punitive rates.

FGR

#15 wrote: »

May I ask what job you do?

This question intrigues me, too.

cyclopath2001

gurramok wrote: »

I asked you before for a link pointing to the legislation where pension relief did not count and you did not provide it. You still get the money back on in later life.

The levy is not a pension contribution, subject to pension tax relief it's not dealt with by the same legislation. The amount paid is simply not regarded as income, much in the same way as if you get a pay cut, you don't get taxed on it.

7.—(1) Nothing in this Act is to be read as conferring any additional benefit payable, or that may become payable, under a public service pension scheme.

This means that the levy has nothing to do with your pension entitlement.

gurramok wrote: »

Hence get the public sector cuts in now before the cost of borrowing skyrockets to punitive rates.

And keep piling on the borrrowing to bail out the banks and to keep property prices high?

professore

tallaght01 wrote: »

I am one of those murderers of sick children, so i may be biased. But comparing consultants in ireland with "consultants" pay in Germany is not comparing like with like.

The training to be a consultant in Germany is minimal. The standards are much much lower. That's not to say that healthcare in Germany is worse. But everyone gets to be a consultant, and it takes only a few years in Germany.

Then why don't we implement the same system here? Have a good quality healthcare system at a much lower price.

professore

murf313 wrote: »

I cant believe your bashing PARAMEDICS (they are not ambulance drivers) now!
I would bet my right arm that you couldnt do the job they do!
Imagine everyday going to work and being called to a fatal road accident and having to try and resusatate someone. Or telling a mother her 2 month old baby has just died of cot death. etc etc

Is no one safe from your begrudgery and contempt for all the public service?

you make me sick......:mad:

Heving recently had firsthand experience of the health services due to a very ill child I have great respect for most (but not all - there were a few who were appalling and frankly dangerous to patients in my opinion - but where do I complain?) in the front lines of the health service. Your statement makes no sense and has nothing to do with pay. It's that sort of "because you're worth it" attitude that got us in this mess in the first place.

I don't think anyone's bashing paramedics. Let's just pay them all € 300 K per annum as they deserve it. In fact everyone who does a good job should be paid € 300 K P.A. I'll be on the next Ryanair flight out of here as THE COUNTRY IS BROKE. We can cut costs and wages across the board or the IMF can do it for us. You decide.

Dr Galen

professore wrote: »

Then why don't we implement the same system here? Have a good quality healthcare system at a much lower price.

the issues with the health system in this country would not be fixed just by implementing the German consultant model. There are many many other things that need to be done more urgently tbh than this, which would create real savings, and improvements in patient care, not just headlines for the Irish Indo

dfbemt

We've heard this all before mods.

Jimmmy attempts to rise ps workers with the usual overpaid / underworked garbage, some answer back with valid arguments and Jimmmy then retorts with childish comments which show that all he is about is shallow ps criticism, most likely because he was rejected for ps posts in the past. He constantly thanks those who fight his corner and has a new pal in ronbyrne2005.

Ah young Ronser, he who had to watch his father go to work on Christmas night while leaving his wife and 2 boys at home. Is that where the chip on your shoulder comes from? What about the picture that appeared in the papers in 2003 / 2004 of a fire on Ormonde Quay with your father carrying a baby down a ladder, covered in smoke and blackened soot? Without your father and the rest of the firefighters there that child could have died! Do you think your father was worth his pay that day, one of many such incidents he attended over his years of service?

What about your father having to work on his days off, pulling furniture around so he could put you through DCU and give you an education so you would not have to do what he had to do and see some of the things that he had to see. Is that why you love to bash the ps?

As for the sleeping all night comment, how do you know he did this? Is this what he told you? Maybe he did not want his family to worry about what he had to do during the night and he played it down? In fact he possibly hardly ever slept because he was worried about his sons and the inability of some to even leave their bedroom to go to DCU!

And what's wrong with the girl who gave up Analytical Science to joing DFB? Her skills have been used during incidents involving chemicals and hazardous substances. Sure we have ex nurses, plumbers, electricians and maybe even an ex boxer shortly. Have you wondered why, or more importantly, why not you?

Maybe if you asked yourself this question you will have the answer to why your ps bashing is now getting tiresome. Would you do any of these ps jobs? If yes, why didn't you apply? If no, then you are talking about something that you really do not have experience of.

erictheviking

professore wrote: »

I'll be on the next Ryanair flight out of here as THE COUNTRY IS BROKE. We can cut costs and wages across the board or the IMF can do it for us. You decide.

When the going gets tough. The tough get going!:rolleyes:
I love the way the complainers/whingers/keyboard warriors solution to it all is to abandon ship instead of getting stuck in to get us out of the mess!
Why do the keyboard warriors keep bringing up the IMF? Its not going to happen. We are part of the EU!
PS. I've got news for you....the country has always been broke! Mainly because of the golden circle milking Ireland for all its worth.

murf313

professore wrote: »

Heving recently had firsthand experience of the health services due to a very ill child I have great respect for most (but not all - there were a few who were appalling and frankly dangerous to patients in my opinion - but where do I complain?) in the front lines of the health service. Your statement makes no sense and has nothing to do with pay. It's that sort of "because you're worth it" attitude that got us in this mess in the first place.

I don't think anyone's bashing paramedics. Let's just pay them all € 300 K per annum as they deserve it. In fact everyone who does a good job should be paid € 300 K P.A. I'll be on the next Ryanair flight out of here as THE COUNTRY IS BROKE. We can cut costs and wages across the board or the IMF can do it for us. You decide.

where did I say paramedics should get 300k? I also never stated they should more than they do, but i do believe their pay should not be cut.
They do a great job under stressful circumstances. The ambulance service is very understaffed and paramedics have ti pick up the slack from closing a&e's etc.
A pay cut would be a very demoralising blow for guys that are very much under appreciated.

btw a hospital porter has a better basic annual wage than a paramedic.

ArmaniJeanss

erictheviking wrote: »

When the going gets tough. The tough get going!:rolleyes:
I love the way the complainers/whingers/keyboard warriors solution to it all is to abandon ship instead of getting stuck in to get us out of the mess!
Why do the keyboard warriors keep bringing up the IMF? Its not going to happen. We are part of the EU!
PS. I've got news for you....the country has always been broke! Mainly because of the golden circle milking Ireland for all its worth.

Its sounds as if Professore is actually the type who would be 'willing to get stuck in to get us out of this mess', unfortunately most people are burying their head in the sand.
I'm not sure why you are convinced the IMF wouldn't get involved. Just being part of the EU wouldn't prevent it - the IMF have previously gone into countries that were part of similar trading blocs.
Some people seem to think that the EU (or effectively the German taxpayer) is going to bail us out eventually. I'm not so sure - to an extent they have given us a bailout already by allowing us to borrow beyond the permitted rules etc. There is a fair chance that thats our lot.

murf313 wrote: »

where did I say paramedics should get 300k? I also never stated they should more than they do, but i do believe their pay should not be cut.
They do a great job under stressful circumstances. The ambulance service is very understaffed and paramedics have ti pick up the slack from closing a&e's etc.
A pay cut would be a very demoralising blow for guys that are very much under appreciated.

btw a hospital porter has a better basic annual wage than a paramedic.

I think Professore was using the obviously ludicrous €300K figure to get across the point that there should be more to pay levels than 'how great a job someone does' or what effect it has on their morale.

gurramok

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The levy is not a pension contribution, subject to pension tax relief it's not dealt with by the same legislation. The amount paid is simply not regarded as income, much in the same way as if you get a pay cut, you don't get taxed on it.

This means that the levy has nothing to do with your pension entitlement.

Link?

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And keep piling on the borrrowing to bail out the banks and to keep property prices high?

No, you know what they did there was highway robbery. We don't want to be robbed twice

cyclopath2001

gurramok wrote: »

Link?

See section 7:

7.—(1) Nothing in this Act is to be read as conferring any additional benefit payable, or that may become payable, under a public service pension scheme.

(2) A deduction under section 2 is not a pension contribution for the purposes of the Pensions Act 1990.

It's not a pension contribution, it brings no entitlements. It's a pay-cut or, if you prefer a tax on public servants to pay for some of the bank bailout.

gurramok wrote: »

No, you know what they did there was highway robbery. We don't want to be robbed twice

Indeed, the levy was brought in to fill a hole in the national pension fund (which includes YOUR pension too) after it was raided to bail out the banks.

murf313

forgive me if I missed it, but has the OP provided a link for the subject of this thread yet?

Or is it just another load of hearsay from jimmmy?

irish_bob

dfbemt wrote: »

We've heard this all before mods.

Jimmmy attempts to rise ps workers with the usual overpaid / underworked garbage, some answer back with valid arguments and Jimmmy then retorts with childish comments which show that all he is about is shallow ps criticism, most likely because he was rejected for ps posts in the past. He constantly thanks those who fight his corner and has a new pal in ronbyrne2005.

Ah young Ronser, he who had to watch his father go to work on Christmas night while leaving his wife and 2 boys at home. Is that where the chip on your shoulder comes from? What about the picture that appeared in the papers in 2003 / 2004 of a fire on Ormonde Quay with your father carrying a baby down a ladder, covered in smoke and blackened soot? Without your father and the rest of the firefighters there that child could have died! Do you think your father was worth his pay that day, one of many such incidents he attended over his years of service?

What about your father having to work on his days off, pulling furniture around so he could put you through DCU and give you an education so you would not have to do what he had to do and see some of the things that he had to see. Is that why you love to bash the ps?

As for the sleeping all night comment, how do you know he did this? Is this what he told you? Maybe he did not want his family to worry about what he had to do during the night and he played it down? In fact he possibly hardly ever slept because he was worried about his sons and the inability of some to even leave their bedroom to go to DCU!

And what's wrong with the girl who gave up Analytical Science to joing DFB? Her skills have been used during incidents involving chemicals and hazardous substances. Sure we have ex nurses, plumbers, electricians and maybe even an ex boxer shortly. Have you wondered why, or more importantly, why not you?

Maybe if you asked yourself this question you will have the answer to why your ps bashing is now getting tiresome. Would you do any of these ps jobs? If yes, why didn't you apply? If no, then you are talking about something that you really do not have experience of.

how come british fireman , british nurses , british doctors , british police all face the same challenges yet recieve on average over 25% less pay , your whole post is one big long emotional ( tug at the heartstrings ) guilt trip

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

how come british fireman , british nurses , british doctors , british police all face the same challenges yet recieve on average over 25% less pay , your whole post is one big long emotional ( tug at the heartstrings ) guilt trip

Last time i checked british police, british firemen,british nurses don't live in Ireland.

irish_bob

Paulzx wrote: »

Last time i checked british police, british firemen,british nurses don't live in Ireland.

so crime , fire and sickness is more accute in ireland , is it



dunnes stores , were different cause were irish

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

so crime , fire and sickness is more accute in ireland , is it



dunnes stores , were different cause were irish

Duh!! Course its not. Are you having a brain freeze:rolleyes:


Seeing as Dunnes have come into it i'll use them. If buying a slice pan in a mythical Dublin Dunnes store i'll be handing over much more of my hard earned cash than in a mythical Dunnes store in the UK.



Thats of course if i bothered getting up off my fat, lazy public service arse to go to the shop.

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

Last time i checked british police, british firemen,british nurses don't live in Ireland.

last time i checked the cost of living was much higher in ireland than britain.

irish_bob

murf313 wrote: »

last time i checked the cost of living was much higher in ireland than britain.

thier will need to be a further correction in cost of living just as thier will need to be a further correction in wage rates , we are not a wealtheir country than the uk , wages and to a lesser degree prices are still tied to pre rescessionary times

the boom years are a whole other country

murf313

irish_bob wrote: »

thier will need to be a further correction in cost of living just as thier will need to be a further correction in wage rates , we are not a wealtheir country than the uk , wages and to a lesser degree prices are still tied to pre rescessionary times

the boom years are a whole other country

well done you managed (as usual) to tip toe around the real answer.

so we are in agreement that the cost of living is higher here?

Do you really believe that by cutting public service pay by a few percent that the country will suddenly get 25% cheaper to live in?? get real....

any way the basic wage for a paramedic in ireland at the top increment is 39k pa. A uk paramedic is on about 34k pa (sterling)

surely you cant see much of a difference here???

Diarmuid

murf313 wrote: »

any way the basic wage for a paramedic in ireland at the top increment is 39k pa. A uk paramedic is on about 34k pa (sterling)

link?

thebman

murf313 wrote: »

well done you managed (as usual) to tip toe around the real answer.

so we are in agreement that the cost of living is higher here?

Do you really believe that by cutting public service pay by a few percent that the country will suddenly get 25% cheaper to live in?? get real....

any way the basic wage for a paramedic in ireland at the top increment is 39k pa. A uk paramedic is on about 34k pa (sterling)

surely you cant see much of a difference here???

The cost of living is based roughly on the average earnings in the economy.

If wages come down in public sector, it will result in a lowering in the cost of living due to the sheer numbers employed and combined with cuts already in private sector (be they wages or jobs).

As an economy that exports we need to have competitive prices on products not with China but with other EU countries.

We also need to have good infrastructure but that is a whole other subject :mad:

murf313

Diarmuid wrote: »

link?

irish paramedic 29,763k pa - 38,800k pa. the link is some where on the hse site. i down loaded it a few weeks ago (its an excel spread sheet) just to note you would have to be an advanced paramedic to reach the top increment. (an extra 2 years training)

www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=766

i stand corrected about the uk paramedic. top increment is 27k pa.
This is for a basic paramedic who would not have the same level as the above mentioned advanced paramedic.

I think you will find the difference of cost of living and standards of training warrant an extra 8k pa

murf313

thebman wrote: »

The cost of living is based roughly on the average earnings in the economy.

If wages come down in public sector, it will result in a lowering in the cost of living due to the sheer numbers employed and combined with cuts already in private sector (be they wages or jobs).

As an economy that exports we need to have competitive prices on products not with China but with other EU countries.

We also need to have good infrastructure but that is a whole other subject :mad:

I can see what your getting at alright.....

But do you honestly think that after the budget and pay has been cut etc. that we will be able to walk down to the local car dealer and a new car will suddenly be 20% cheaper. Is the cost of fuel going to drop signifigantly? will a pint of milk be 50cents less? Do you think that the esb will provide electricity for cheaper? will our mortgages come down?

I dont think so, every one will just be alot worse off than they were.

thebman

murf313 wrote: »

I can see what your getting at alright.....

But do you honestly think that after the budget and pay has been cut etc. that we will be able to walk down to the local car dealer and a new car will suddenly be 20% cheaper. Is the cost of fuel going to drop signifigantly? will a pint of milk be 50cents less? Do you think that the esb will provide electricity for cheaper? will our mortgages come down?

I dont think so, every one will just be alot worse off than they were.

The ESB have already reduced their prices because the energy market is regulated.

The ESB want lower prices because it stops new competition in energy markets.

Mortgages can't come down but there is nothing anyone can do about that as there is already agreements in place. People will default or have debts written down though which ultimately will benefit the economy.

The price of goods in stores will drop as people will no longer pay the old prices. People will always spend a certain percentage of their wage on milk etc.. and this will have to come down if peoples wages come down as they will no loner pay it and shop around.

The problem seems to be that most people won't shop around as there are cheaper goods already available in many supermarkets with a little shopping around.

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

last time i checked the cost of living was much higher in ireland than britain.

Eh. I think you'll find thats the point i was making.
Probably should have elaborated more but i'll leave that to the armchair economists around here. I'm only a dumbass public services worker who doesn't have the intellect to bother trying to debate with them.

ardmacha

The traded private sector has come under pressure, with wage reductions etc. The PS has reduced wages and will further reduce them. But the cuckoo in the nest is the private sector in areas with little competition. The doctors and dentists, Eircom, Vodafone O2 etc. Whatever about the highest PS salaries in Europe, we will still have the highest line rental and highest revenue per mobile phone (or close to highest) and nothing much will change on this front. Will the regulator reduce Eircom line rental by 6% as inflation is -6%? The contracts for road tolls etc are upwards only. These costs are as relevant to the high costs for export businesses as the public sector.