Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

jimmmy

dfbemt wrote: »

Jimmmy then retorts with childish comments which show that all he is about is shallow ps criticism, most likely because he was rejected for ps posts in the past.

Thats a personal attack and I can assure you I never even applied for p.s. post in my whole life, never mind "was rejected for ps posts". I was very ambitous and hard working in my youth and early working career.

ardmacha

I was very ambitous and hard working in my youth and early working career.

Not ambitious enough to aim for the the best paid jobs in the world, according to yourself.

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

Not ambitious enough to aim for the the best paid jobs in the world, according to yourself.

I always wanted something more challenging. A government job is a government job. The best paid public service in the known world is the Irish public service ( as confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on RTE last week, so said they were the best paid public service on "the planet"...I assume the planet he meant was earth ! ). Irish public service pay + pension levels are not sustainable.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... as confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on RTE last week ...

I thought you did research, jimmmy. Well, more accurately, I thought you didn't, but you said I was wrong in that. So can you provide better support for the positions you take than vague allusions to the media?

It would help if you used the word "confirmed" correctly. Eddie Hobbs affirmed. There is a difference.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I thought you did research, jimmmy. Well, more accurately, I thought you didn't, but you said I was wrong in that.

I have often provided links to facts on websites eg the Irish C.S.O. ; is that not research P.Breathnach ? You do think or you do not think , I do not care.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So can you provide better support for the positions you take than vague allusions to the media?

What vague allusions to the media do you mean ? When Eddie Hobbs says something on RTE, which you think is not true, ( eg he said average Irish public service pay is the highest public sector pay on "the planet", or words to that effect ) why do you not take it up with him or with RTE ?

Better still, there is a thread on this very board, asking is average Irish public service pay really the highest public sector pay in the world. Many link to other countries have been searched + produced, but nobody has yet found a country in the world that has a higher average public sector pay than Ireland. ( of 966 euro per week as confirmed by our own c.s.o. ).
There are one or two countries in the world for which public sector pay is difficult to obtain eg in Africa. Maybe if it was in the Guinness book of records ( that Ireland has the highest public sector pay in the world ) would you believe it then ? If the Guinness book of records states that the tallest man in the world is Mr. X, would you accept that is in fact the case, even though nobody has actually checked and measured the height of every single human being in the world ?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I have often provided links to facts on websites eg the Irish C.S.O. ; is that not research P.Breathnach ? You do think or you do not think , I do not care.

I'm not sufficiently interested to go back and dig out the history. You do not post precise links, and I am fairly sure that those links you have provided were picked up from earlier posts by other participants here.

What vague allusions to the media do you mean ?

"as confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on RTE" is a vague allusion. No exact quote, no programme name, no time and date, no link so that interested people can check on what he said or the context in which he said it.

When Eddie Hobbs says something on RTE, which you think is not true, ( eg he said average Irish public service pay is the highest public sector pay on "the planet", or words to that effect ) why do you not take it up with him or with RTE ?

You don't know what I think about what Eddie Hobbs said, because I never told you. But that is beside the point, because the issue here is what you say, and your claiming support from Eddie Hobbs.

Better still, there is a thread on this very board, asking is average Irish public service pay really the highest public sector pay in the world. Many link to other countries have been searched + produced, but nobody has yet found a country in the world that has a higher average public sector pay than Ireland. ( of 966 euro per week as confirmed by our own c.s.o. ).

The CSO did not confirm it. If you want to cite a good authority (and I accept that the CSO is a good authority) you should cite it in appropriate language.

There are one or two countries in the world for which public sector pay is difficult to obtain eg in Africa. Maybe if it was in the Guinness book of records ( that Ireland has the highest public sector pay in the world ) would you believe it then ? If the Guinness book of records states that the tallest man in the world is Mr. X, would you accept that is in fact the case, even though nobody has actually checked and measured the height of every single human being in the world ?

I don't operate at the level where I treat a work of entertainment as having the same standing as proper research exercise addressing questions of importance.

As you value your research skills so highly, perhaps you can research this forum and report on what I have said about public service pay levels. It is wrong to ascribe to me views that I have never expressed.

While you are engaged in the exercise, you might also note what I did actually say about the relationship between pay and cost of living. That should be easy: it's in this very thread.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not sufficiently interested to go back and dig out the history.

Neither am I, so why then mention it ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You do not post precise links,

I often have posted precise links, in some of the thousand plus posts made...

P. Breathnach wrote: »

and I am fairly sure that those links you have provided were picked up from earlier posts by other participants here.

"fairly sure" only ? You think I never went in to the statistics offices of other countries as well as the CSO, I never looked up wikipedia myself ( which I quoted on more than one occassion ) etc

P. Breathnach wrote: »

"as confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on RTE" is a vague allusion.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No exact quote, no programme name, no time and date, no link so that interested people can check on what he said or the context in which he said it..

It was the afternnon programme at about 3.15 / 3.30 on RTE 1 radio in the middle of last week. He was also on the Frontline ( Pat Kennys) TV programme during the public sector pay debate several weeks ago : I gave exact time + date + quoted the precise figures he mentioned on that programme. I am not going to repeat myself for you. You research what was already said.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The CSO did not confirm it. If you want to cite a good authority (and I accept that the CSO is a good authority) you should cite it in appropriate language.
.

The English language is an appropriate language. The CSO did indeed state that average Irish public sector wage was 966 per week.
You can argue if it was confirmed or affirmed. A precise link was provided on more than one occassion in the past for you.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As you value your research skills so highly,

I am not trained as a researcher, but yet it was relatively easy to search online for the c.s.o., and statistics offices in other countries. I do not just go by reports ( eg in the Irish Independent of 10th October ), or for example the table on the third last page of this months copy of "Business Plus " magazine, which I have also quoted from.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

perhaps you can research this forum and report on what I have said about public service pay levels. .

I have more to do than report on what you say : I do not value your opinion that highly. I do not have a vested interest in maintaining the level of public sector pay.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

While you are engaged in the exercise, you might also note what I did actually say about the relationship between pay and cost of living. That should be easy: it's in this very thread.

I know what you said about "the relationship between pay and cost of living". Public sector gross pay has not fallen.( not yet anyway ). Pensions in the public sector have not fallen.( not yet). Everything else has seen falls over the last year or two ( private sector pay, private sector pensions, property, rents, oil, interest rates, consumer goods, holidays, flights, etc ). When p.s. pay comes down the the cost of living will come down more too.

N.B. If you think Eddie Hobbs did not speak the truth about public service pay, why do you think he is reported to be getting so much hate mail from disgruntled members of the public service ?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So can you provide better support for the positions you take than vague allusions to the media?

Regarding this thread, its about the reports in the two page article in the Irish Independent of Saturday the 10th of September. I suppose you disagree with the half a dozen contributers ( who work or had worked in the Irish public service , as well as in their own native EC country, so they could compare ) too ? I quoted some of what they said earlier in this very thread, word for word. I quoted many many sentences + paragraphs. Maybe its all just a "vague allusions to the media" ?

ardmacha

So when someone who works in the public service makes a posting here it is disregarded, but if someone from the public service says something in the Indo then it is authoritative.

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

So when someone who works in the public service makes a posting here it is disregarded, but if someone from the public service says something in the Indo then it is authoritative.

The people in that article had facts and figures. As regards " someone who works in the public service makes a posting here it is disregarded "....what facts and figures have such people posted here which are disregarded ? Have they posted any ?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... I have more to do than report on what you say : I do not value your opinion that highly.

I value my opinion sufficiently to take exception when it is misrepresented.

I do not have a vested interest in maintaining the level of public sector pay...

I disclosed the source of my income for transparency. You have several times tried to use it against me. Time to put up or shut up: where have I allowed a vested interest influence anything I have posted here?

It is extraordinary when my effort to be honest and open is used as a stick with which to beat me.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

where have I allowed a vested interest influence anything I have posted here?

Did I say it did ? All I said was that I do not have a vested interest in maintaining the highest average public sector wages in the world ( or on "the planet", to use Eddies Hobbs words on the matter ). I applaud the honesty and bravery of the half a dozen public sector workers who reported in the paper with facts + figures and honest opinions. They had experience of there own countries to compare public sector pay with. One was paid here double what they got at home for the exact same job. Another was paid three times. I am sure they are flavour of the moment with their unionised colleagues / ex colleagues in Ireland

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Did I say it did ? ...

Yes, you said it by very strong implication, in writing this as one paragraph:

I have more to do than report on what you say : I do not value your opinion that highly. I do not have a vested interest in maintaining the level of public sector pay.

Don't pretend that it was not your intent. Otherwise I might have to call you a liar, and get into trouble with the moderators.

jimmmy

I do not know for certain if you or other posters on this have a vested interest in maintaing public sector pay levels. I never asked anyone what they worked at. Unlike the half a dozen people in the paper, whom I quote, I do not or have not worked in the public service. I am an ordinary citizen / taxpayer. What I applaud is the the honesty and bravery of the half a dozen public sector workers, who reported in the paper with facts + figures and honest opinions. I quoted these facts + figures + what they said ; if you are unable or unwilling to go for the ball and challenge what they say, would you have no comment on them, rather than trying to attack me ?

P. Breathnach

Jaysus, jimmmy! Don't try to cast yourself as a victim: it simply doesn't sit well either with your perseverative terrier persona or your weasel ways when you are challenged on having a go at people.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Jaysus, jimmmy! Don't try to cast yourself as a victim.

I am not.

To get back to the subject, I quoted these peoples facts + figures + what they said ; if you are unable or unwilling to go for the ball and challenge what they say, would you have no comment on them ?

#15

The people in that article had facts and figures. As regards " someone who works in the public service makes a posting here it is disregarded "....what facts and figures have such people posted here which are disregarded ? Have they posted any ?

Yes, people have posted facts which you have ignored.
Eurokraut pointed out that Irish teachers have a ratio of 1:28, while German teachers have a 1:15 ratio (teacher : pupils).

There is also the chart below.

Irish teachers teach more hours and more children than their German equivalents.

ardmacha wrote: »

Oddly enough these hard working Germans don't actually manage to give their kids as much instruction time as in Ireland, but at least they beat those Finns.

Also, you are right that the public sector needs to take a pay cut.

The problem is that you are not basing it on sound logic. You are all over the place in your reasoning. Just because you happen to be in the right place, does not mean that you got there correctly.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I am not.

To get back to the subject, I quoted these peoples facts + figures + what they said ; if you are unable or unwilling to go for the ball and challenge what they say, would you have no comment on them ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62507252&postcount=14

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Eurokraut pointed out that Irish teachers have a ratio of 1:28, while German teachers have a 1:15 ratio (teacher : pupils).

But if Irish teachers were not paid so much more than the european average, then the governments education budget could be spent on employing more teachers, thus bringing down the ratio. Someone else pointed this out too. Why has everything to be repeated?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... Why has everything to be repeated?

There speaks a man with no sense of irony.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That said, I certainly have the impression (it's an impression, so I am not linking to supporting evidence) that Irish workers have in recent years enjoyed a higher standard of living than those in other EU states. Our prices tend to be a good deal higher than in other places, but our pay levels have been a great deal higher. That differential seems to me to exist across both the public and the private sectors.

Our minimum wage is approx 50% higher than in the UK. Our dole / unemployment benefit three times higher than in N. Ireland. Our old age pension is also over double UK rates. ...so its not surprising pay levels are higher too. Still close on half the working population in Irelands private sector do not earn enough to pay income tax. Our prices are dropping. A McDonalds hamburger or a shirt in Dunnes or Pennies or pair of shoes is not that expensive compared to average p.s. pay for example, and cannot be used as an excuse.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What say you jimmmy? Do you believe that Irish shop assistants and accounting technicians and motor mechanics and production operatives have been much higher paid than their counterparts elsewhere?

Many have been higher than many of their counterparts elsewhere....after all the cost of doing business in Ireland is high. Electricity is among the most expensive in Europe. We have one of the highest vat rates in Europe, we have high excise and vrt rates etc....all this money goes to the govt.
If you want to be a "shop assistants / accounting technicians / motor mechanics / production operatives " then why do you not be : if you think its that lucrative and you undercut your competitors I am sure you will be very busy and make lots of money.:D. Many "shop assistants and accounting technicians and motor mechanics and production operatives " are finding themselves out of work now. Few have a pension as generous as a public service pension. Few are on the average public sector wage of 50k a year. ( 966 per week ).( source : c.s. o.) Few take the 19 days sickies a year those in the hse do. Few get paid for half an hour to cash their cheques, just because they always did, even though they are now paid by direct debit. Few can retire after 30 years, or 15 years, as the Gardai and Judicary can. Few get 3 months summer holidays. Few get stress leave.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There speaks a man with no sense of irony.

I quoted these peoples ( what the thread is about ) facts + figures + what they said ; why not go for the ball and challenge what they say ?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Our minimum wage is approx 50% higher than in the UK. Our dole / unemployment benefit three times higher than in N. Ireland. Our old age pension is also over double UK rates. ...so its not surprising pay levels are higher too. Still close on half the working population in Irelands private sector do not earn enough to pay income tax. Our prices are dropping. A McDonalds hamburger or a shirt in Dunnes or Pennies or pair of shoes is not that expensive compared to average p.s. pay for example, and cannot be used as an excuse.


Many have been higher than many of their counterparts elsewhere....after all the cost of doing business in Ireland is high. Electricity is among the most expensive in Europe. We have one of the highest vat rates in Europe, we have high excise and vrt rates etc....all this money goes to the govt.
If you want to be a "shop assistants / accounting technicians / motor mechanics / production operatives " then why do you not be : if you think its that lucrative and you undercut your competitors I am sure you will be very busy and make lots of money.:D. Many "shop assistants and accounting technicians and motor mechanics and production operatives " are finding themselves out of work now. Few have a pension as generous as a public service pension. Few are on the average public sector wage of 50k a year. ( 966 per week ).( source : c.s. o.) Few take the 19 days sickies a year those in the hse do. Few get paid for half an hour to cash their cheques, just because they always did, even though they are now paid by direct debit. Few can retire after 30 years, or 15 years, as the Gardai and Judicary can. Few get 3 months summer holidays. Few get stress leave.

You're all over the place, jimmmy, except on the point.

Let me spell it out for you:
1. All classes of worker in Ireland, both in the public and private sectors, have been paid more than their counterparts in other countries - yet you single out the public sector for attack.
2. The cost of living in Ireland is higher than in other countries, no matter what you say about the price of a Big Mac.
3. There is a connection to be made between pay rates and cost of living, because the standard of living enjoyed by an individual is determined by the combination of both.

And then you attempt to cloud the issue with the stock phrases you use to vilify public sector employees.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... why not go for the ball and challenge what they say ?

Why do you repeat everything?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

1. All classes of worker in Ireland, both in the public and private sectors, have been paid more than their counterparts in other countries - yet you single out the public sector for attack.

We are talking 2009.
Nobody can find a country in the world ( or on the "planet" as Eddie Hobbs says ) that has a higher average public service pasy than Ireland.
Do you think Irish private sector pay is the highest in the known world ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

2. The cost of living in Ireland is higher than in other countries, no matter what you say about the price of a Big Mac.

Did you not read the quotes from the people in the paper ? Do you think Ireland is the most expensive country in the world to live in ? It is expensive, but not that expensive. And prices are dropping like a stone. Taxes and costs are high in Ireland, but nobody forces anyone living here to give money to the private sector. You can shop around and buy your shopping in N.Ireland, where taxes , the minimum wage etc are less, if you so wish - as many do.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

3. There is a connection to be made between pay rates and cost of living, because the standard of living enjoyed by an individual is determined by the combination of both.

Nobody denies that, as the massiove pay increases awarded by the government was one of the driving forces of prices upwards. ( along with raising the minimum wage etc ).

We have (according to Eurostat statistics ) public service pay 40% higher than the EC average : yet the cost of living here is not 40% higher.

Once public service pay comes down, so will prices reduce further. As you correctly say "There is a connection to be made between pay rates and cost of living".

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why do you repeat everything?

Because you have not answered the question. Because you dodge and evade it.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Because you have not answered the question. Because you dodge and evade it.

No, jimmmy. You are being disingenuous, and not for the first time. You pose "when did you stop beating your wife" questions, and demand that they be taken seriously.

I do not take anecdotal stories in a paper like the Independent, which is advancing its own agenda, as a proper foundation for a serious discussion.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

But if Irish teachers were not paid so much more than the european average, then the governments education budget could be spent on employing more teachers, thus bringing down the ratio. Someone else pointed this out too. Why has everything to be repeated?

I have to repeat myself because you generally just refuse to read or understand what I say.


Anyway, yes, PS pay needs to come down.



p.s. Can you please stop referring to Eddie Hobbs all the time, its like you have read one article from him and have decided that it is gospel.
Eddie Hobbs is the man who was charging his customers something like 200 euro an hour for financial advice, wasn't he?
And wasn't he the man encouraging people to invest in his 'Brendan investments' property company?
That kinda rubbish is what inflated the economy in the first place.

#15

Originally Posted by P. Breathnach
Why do you repeat everything?

jimmmy wrote: »

Because you have not answered the question. Because you dodge and evade it.

You have managed to evade this one yourself jimmy

Originally Posted by #15
May I ask what job you do?

I have identified myself as a primary teacher, so that I can debate from an open position. Your unwillingness to do the same could be taken as a sign that you have an agenda.

ardmacha

Jimmmy

As regards " someone who works in the public service makes a posting here it is disregarded "....what facts and figures have such people posted here which are disregarded ? Have they posted any ?

On 06/10/2009 I posted this, using data taken from OECD not the Indo , in response to one of your fact free statements that teachers did only a fraction of the work of teachers in other countries.



As always you simply ignored this actual authoritative data and posted on page 10 of the current thread.

"Maybe if teachers put in the same hours + only took the same holidays as their continental counterparts that would help as well"

Presumably hoping that some people reading this hadn't read the other thread.

Get up the yard.