Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

We are talking 2009.

I had noticed. Did you notice the verb tense I used?

Nobody can find a country in the world ( or on the "planet" as Eddie Hobbs says ) that has a higher average public service pasy than Ireland.
Do you think Irish private sector pay is the highest in the known world ?

It's up there, a strong contender.

Did you not read the quotes from the people in the paper ? Do you think Ireland is the most expensive country in the world to live in ? It is expensive, but not that expensive. And prices are dropping like a stone. Taxes and costs are high in Ireland, but nobody forces anyone living here to give money to the private sector. You can shop around and buy your shopping in N.Ireland, where taxes , the minimum wage etc are less, if you so wish - as many do.

Ireland is indeed one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. I cannot quickly find full comparisons for states, but here is recent city data: http://ezinearticles.com/?International-Cost-of-Living-Rankings-1-April-2009&id=2239968 -- 2009 figures, after Dublin had slipped down the table.

Nobody denies that, as the massiove pay increases awarded by the government was one of the driving forces of prices upwards. ( along with raising the minimum wage etc ).

Bollocks. Public service pay increases followed trends in the private sector (remember benchmarking?).

We have (according to Eurostat statistics ) public service pay 40% higher than the EC average : yet the cost of living here is not 40% higher.

Once public service pay comes down, so will prices reduce further. As you correctly say "There is a connection to be made between pay rates and cost of living".

How would reducing public sector pay cuts cause prices to fall? Public sector pay is an exchequer problem, not an inflation driver.

Paulzx

jimmmy wrote: »

We are talking 2009.
Nobody can find a country in the world ( or on the "planet" as Eddie Hobbs says ) .

Jeez. Whats going on between you and Eddie Hobbs?. Are you carrying his lovechild or something. You must keep a scrap book of every utterance he makes.

Eddie Hobbs has only one interest and thats himself. 4 years ago he was telling people on his program to buy second and third houses. He seems to forget this every time he is again in the nations media screaming for the gallows for the filthy public servants. I tend to continue to ignore his " advice" just like i did in previous years. God knows what populist hymn sheet he'll be singing from in 5 years time

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

Everything else has seen falls over the last year or two ( private sector pay, rents,

Not all private sector pay has come down.

Not all rents have come down.

You are quite glib with your "facts" jimmmy.

thethedev

Why should hospital consultants in Finland be paid less than ambulance drivers in Ireland?

cyclopath2001

thethedev wrote: »

Why should hospital consultants in Finland be paid less than ambulance drivers in Ireland?

Because their Met office workers get paid more than Irish ones?

TCP/IP_King

Does Jimmy read the Indo ??

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...f-1917569.html

Read and weep over at

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055714328

You may now return to your droning.

gurramok

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Ireland is indeed one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. I cannot quickly find full comparisons for states, but here is recent city data: http://ezinearticles.com/?International-Cost-of-Living-Rankings-1-April-2009&id=2239968 -- 2009 figures, after Dublin had slipped down the table.

Thats a very strange list.

They have Lagos, Nigeria(Kidding?) at #3, Venezuela, Caracas #4 and Papua New Guinea, Port Moresby at #5
Also, Monaco at No. 29 and Central African Republic, Bangui(yes, where?) at No. 32 before Helsinki at #35

They forgot to add quality of living to get a truer picture so that list is horse manure.

From the Economist Intelligence Unit, here's a truer list as cost of living is always mentioned here as a way to stop wages falling.http://www.eiuresources.com/mediadir/default.asp?PR=1670001967

http://blog.taragana.com/n/eu-says-denmark-ireland-and-finland-have-highest-prices-for-food-clothing-and-electronics-111272/

Helsinki, Finland at #9 position. Finland is as expensive as Ireland and yet wages are way too high for the public sector(nevermind private) here hence public sector wages are hell of alot less in Finland and they survive with a good quality of life.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Ireland is indeed one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. I cannot quickly find full comparisons for states, but here is recent city data: http://ezinearticles.com/?International-Cost-of-Living-Rankings-1-April-2009&id=2239968

If this is the best you can find ...Dublin, Ireland it says the 22nd most expensive capital city / country in the world....big deal....does this excuse us having the highest paid public service in the known world ? Do you not understand that if the public service was not bloated by this excess pay + pensions, prices here would be less ?

gurramok

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The levy is not a pension contribution, subject to pension tax relief it's not dealt with by the same legislation. The amount paid is simply not regarded as income, much in the same way as if you get a pay cut, you don't get taxed on it.

I've dug high and low to find out whats really the truth. The statement above about tax relief under whatever title they call it does not tally with the Dept of Finance tables found here http://finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2009/pensiondedtablemay09.pdf nor does the document you linked to state anything about reliefs in the legislation as I suspect the reliefs are outside the remit of the legislation

Anyway. Care to explain the difference between the gross and net 'Pension- relation deduction' in the first table for a single person?

Its that tax relief (pension or other name) that eases the deduction?

EDIT: http://finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=5654
"The approximate Net rate of additional pension deduction as a proportion of gross pay when tax relief is taken into account"

Why did you mislead on the above??

Btw, you're the only one on boards I have found so far that disagrees that the tax relief exists.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This means that the levy has nothing to do with your pension entitlement.

Yes, that depends on who says so The govt say it is and the unions say its not

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

Thats a very strange list.

They have Lagos, Nigeria(Kidding?) at #3, Venezuela, Caracas #4 and Papua New Guinea, Port Moresby at #5
Also, Monaco at No. 29 and Central African Republic, Bangui(yes, where?) at No. 32 before Helsinki at #35

They forgot to add quality of living to get a truer picture so that list is horse manure...

It's a list drawn up for a particular purpose -- "an [American] expatriate's personal budget" -- so it is not surprising that there is room to argue about about some rankings. All the ones you pick out as surprisingly high have a common characteristic: they are very dangerous places, so I presume that a high component of security expenditure is factored in, and that might be significant for an American living in those places.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

If this is the best you can find ...Dublin, Ireland it says the 22nd most expensive capital city / country in the world....big deal....does this excuse us having the highest paid public service in the known world ?

It's better than anything you have done -- commenting on the price of a shirt in Penney's.

Note also, as I already pointed out, that it is 2009 data, after Dublin slipped down the table a few places. Even at that, 22nd out of 276 is a very high ranking. Further, as I commented in my reply to gurramok's post, some of the higher ranking cities are there for exceptional reasons.

Do you not understand that if the public service was not bloated by this excess pay + pensions, prices here would be less ?

The impact of public service pay levels on price levels is small. Do you want us to believe that cutting teachers' pay by 20% would bring down the price of a pint in your local, or a ream of paper for your printer?

You show an amazing capacity to dismiss or disregard any argument or evidence that does not fit with your prejudices.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

All the ones you pick out as surprisingly high have a common characteristic: they are very dangerous places, so I presume that a high component of security expenditure is factored in, and that might be significant for an American living in those places.

Rubbish.
It mentions nothing about "security". It does say "The study comprised the cost of several hundred items that expatriates typically spend their pay on, grouped into 13 Basket Groups"The most expensive city it mentions , Tokyo, is hardly that much more dangerous / the most dangerous city in the world , with at the bottom Durban, South Africa, the safest ?

Trying to justify us having the highest paid public service in the known world on the cost of living is just scraping the barrel. The hospital consultant in the paper who says his wages are half those in Germany compared to Dublin - for doing exactly the same job - does not need thousands extra a week just to live in Ireland.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The impact of public service pay levels on price levels is small. Do you want us to believe that cutting teachers' pay by 20% would bring down the price of a pint in your local, or a ream of paper for your printer?

Most of the price of a pint goes in tax one way or another. If public sector wages are cut by 20%, they will still be 20% above the eurozone average ( according to Eurostat ). However it will save the exchequer billions. Ye can still buy a pint in your local, or you buy the guts of a thousands litres of beer up North for a weeks average public sector wages...that should last ye a while You cannot justify p.s. wages on the price of living.

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

I've dug high and low to find out whats really the truth. The statement above about tax relief under whatever title they call it does not tally with the Dept of Finance tables found here http://finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2009/pensiondedtablemay09.pdf nor does the document you linked to state anything about reliefs in the legislation as I suspect the reliefs are outside the remit of the legislation

Anyway. Care to explain the difference between the gross and net 'Pension- relation deduction' in the first table for a single person?

Its that tax relief (pension or other name) that eases the deduction?

EDIT: http://finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=5654
"The approximate Net rate of additional pension deduction as a proportion of gross pay when tax relief is taken into account"

Why did you mislead on the above??

Btw, you're the only one on boards I have found so far that disagrees that the tax relief exists.


Yes, that depends on who says so The govt say it is and the unions say its not

I think you missed the point. The levy is indeed deducted from salary before tax is calculated, so it is tax-relieved. But it is not relieved as a pension contribution. One effect of this is that people who have been topping up their pension entitlements by purchasing AVCs are not being squeezed by the the overall limit for allowable pension contributions. Another effect is that income that is not pensionable (e.g. overtime pay) is subject to the deduction.

Let's be real about this. The government sought to reduce public sector pay. Having recently taken a battering over medical cards for the elderly, it wanted to avoid another problem with the grey constituency. So it found a formula for reducing pay without reducing pensions. They gave it a label for marketing purposes.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... Trying to justify us having the highest paid public service in the known world on the cost of living is just scraping the barrel...

Right, jimmmy, I have lost patience with you. I have never tried to justify public sector pay rates. I have indicated that to you several times. You cannot reasonably be unaware of my position. You are a liar.

gurramok

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think you missed the point. The levy is indeed deducted from salary before tax is calculated, so it is tax-relieved. But it is not relieved as a pension contribution. One effect of this is that people who have been topping up their pension entitlements by purchasing AVCs are not being squeezed by the the overall limit for allowable pension contributions. Another effect is that income that is not pensionable (e.g. overtime pay) is subject to the deduction.

Let's be real about this. The government sought to reduce public sector pay. Having recently taken a battering over medical cards for the elderly, it wanted to avoid another problem with the grey constituency. So it found a formula for reducing pay without reducing pensions. They gave it a label for marketing purposes.

Okay, your explanation is the best so far.

In the table, what i can see is that the after tax deduction is about 3%-4% for most on under 80k, thats a paltry deduction considering most are overpaid (ESRI studies).

This reduction is in contrast to the screaming from the rooftops types who stated it was 7% when quite clearly it was not as those people themselves were quoting disposable income.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have never tried to justify public sector pay rates. I have indicated that to you several times. You cannot reasonably be unaware of my position.

Indeed by implication I was under the impression you do indeed justify Irish public sector pay rates being the highest in the known world. Why else do you keep bringing up the cost of living as an excuse etc.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You cannot reasonably be unaware of my position.

Can you clarify what is your position? Would you be in agreement with the half a dozen other public servants / ex -public servants who gave figures and quotes in the newspaper , and which were reproduced earlier in this thread. Yes or no ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You are a liar.

Please show me posts where I have told lies. I insist you do so if you accume me of being a liar.

Lemming

BroomBurner wrote: »

I thought everyone knew that all ambulance drivers were paramedics. They always need two people when responding to an incident, and if it's a particularly bad incident, two paramedics will be required. Seeing as they can't actually guess what the incident is going to be, two trained paramedics is the most cost-effective and safe way to work it.

Broomburner is right; ambulance gets called, two paramedics get out. Reasons why?

• One stays with patient(s) if one needs to retrieve additional equipment or radio for further assisstance
• En-route to A&E; one paramedic stays in the back with patient(s) at all times whislt other drives
• Multiple patients, more than one paramedic.

In short, the idea being that patients are never left unattended until stabilised and passed to an A&E unit

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Indeed by implication I was under the impression you do indeed justify Irish public sector pay rates being the highest in the known world.

That is because you do not read what I say, and substitute your own version of truth.

Why else do you keep bringing up the cost of living as an excuse etc.

There you go again, distorting things. Cost of living is not an excuse: it is a factor to be considered.

Can you clarify what is your position?

I have done so in the past.

Would you be in agreement with the half a dozen other public servants / ex -public servants who gave figures and quotes in the newspaper , and which were reproduced earlier in this thread. Yes or no ?

I don't play silly buggers. The eastern Europeans working in local firms earn multiples of what they would earn at home doing similar work. But they are not in the public service, so you disregard their situation.

Please show me posts where I have told lies. I insist you do so if you accume me of being a liar.

The one to which I was responding when I called you a liar. Let's add the one where you pretended that you were not accusing me of advancing a vested interest.

jimmmy

Lemming wrote: »

Broomburner is right; ambulance gets called, two paramedics get out. Reasons why?

• One stays with patient(s) if one needs to retrieve additional equipment or radio for further assisstance
• En-route to A&E; one paramedic stays in the back with patient(s) at all times whislt other drives
• Multiple patients, more than one paramedic.

In short, the idea being that patients are never left unattended until stabilised and passed to an A&E unit

Nobody thinks that patients are left unattended before being passed on to A+E. I suspect all ambulance services in the western world are similar in this regard.
The question is ... Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The eastern Europeans working in local firms earn multiples of what they would earn at home doing similar work. But they are not in the public service, so you disregard their situation.

I disregard their situation because you did not mention them up until now, and anything you have mentioned in order to try to justify our high public sector wages I have commented on. What " eastern Europeans working in local firms earn multiples of what they would earn at home doing similar work." are you talking about ? Can you give me some facts + figures + quotes from them. ...and what is your point ? Earlier in this thread I gave numerous facts + figures as quoted by the named ( and photographed ) public servants / ex public servants in the paper. Some made the point Ireland is cheaper to live in and taxes are less than in their home EC country. They did not come from Eastern Europe, they came from Germany, Denmark, Holland etc What has the hospital consultant in the paper who says his wages are half those in Germany compared to Dublin - for doing exactly the same job - got to do with eastern Europeans working in Ireland? Both may send money home. The public servants in the paper all said they were overpaid in Ireland.....do the eastern Europeans you refer working in local firms say this too ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The one to which I was responding when I called you a liar.

So you cannot point to something I wrote and say it is a lie.;)

wolfpawnat

Well there are several things that have to be examined,
1. are you saying basic wage-no extras are being compared equally.
2. What is the cost of living in Finland.
3. Are they matching the hours worked.
4. Who did the actual study, is it credible. After all 40% of statistics are made up;)

Besides I think ambulance workers have to deal with some of the most desturbing sh!t, they deserve to be congratulated for what they do, not critised by a journalist that is more than likely far too overpaid!!!

jimmmy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Besides I think ambulance workers have to deal with some of the most desturbing sh!t, they deserve to be congratulated for what they do, not critised by a journalist that is more than likely far too overpaid!!!

Well if you have difficulty comparing an ambulance driver with a hospital consultant, then look at the comparisons made by the public servants in the paper who compared their pay in Ireland with their home country
eg the German hospital consultant - double the pay for the same work compared to his hospital in Berlin, which he returned to once his contract with the Mater was up.
The Portugese nurse : treble the pay for the same work.

parsi

jimmmy wrote: »

The problem is most Irish people do not have any german or french of even leaving cert standard. In a quality Irish hotel one I saw nobody able to help a group of elderly continental tourists who were unable to speak much English. Ask a thousand people in the street in Ireland directions in French or German and see how the response differs from asking for directions in English on the continent. This despite the fact our teachers are paid 40% more in Ireland than on the continent.

So you're suggesting that the Maths, English, Irish, PE, Woodwork, Metalwork, Tech Drawing, Economics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Music, Arts, Home Ed, German & History teachers should be teaching folk French ?

Don't get too hungup on this "foreigners can speak a second language" thing too much. Go immerse yourself in the foreign country and see just how much English folk really have - the shop assistant, the doctor, the receptionist, the chemist, the private bus driver, the baker , the policeman , the builder are all very far from fluent.

You're tiresome.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

But if Irish teachers were not paid so much more than the european average, then the governments education budget could be spent on employing more teachers, thus bringing down the ratio. Someone else pointed this out too. Why has everything to be repeated?

indeed , irish teachers have time and again chosen pay hikes over reduced teacher - pupil ratio , the same goes for nurses and doctors when it comes to beds in hospitals , a simple case of not being able to have your cake and eat it

parsi

jimmmy wrote: »

eg the German hospital consultant - double the pay for the same work compared to his hospital in Berlin, which he returned to once his contract with the Mater was up.
The Portugese nurse : treble the pay for the same work.

The sparky getting 5-times as much, the chippy gettting 7.2 times as much, the dumper driver getting paid more than a Finnish Consultant, the kettle-washer getting more than a Dutch ambulanceman, the brusher-upper-after-the-chippy getting more than an Ambassador, the developer earning more than the GDP of a small country...

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I disregard their situation because you did not mention them up until now, and anything you have mentioned in order to try to justify our high public sector wages I have commented on. What " eastern Europeans working in local firms earn multiples of what they would earn at home doing similar work." are you talking about ? Can you give me some facts + figures + quotes from them. ...and what is your point ?

I did mention them on the first page of this thread when I said: "That said, I certainly have the impression (it's an impression, so I am not linking to supporting evidence) that Irish workers have in recent years enjoyed a higher standard of living than those in other EU states. Our prices tend to be a good deal higher than in other places, but our pay levels have been a great deal higher. That differential seems to me to exist across both the public and the private sectors." All I am adding now is a little colour to the picture I already painted. You see, jimmmy, I find it boring to use the same stock phrases repeatedly.

Earlier in this thread I gave numerous facts + figures as quoted by the named ( and photographed ) public servants / ex public servants in the paper. Some made the point Ireland is cheaper to live in and taxes are less than in their home EC country. They did not come from Eastern Europe, they came from Germany, Denmark, Holland etc What has the hospital consultant in the paper who says his wages are half those in Germany compared to Dublin - for doing exactly the same job - got to do with eastern Europeans working in Ireland? Both may send money home. The public servants in the paper all said they were overpaid in Ireland.....do the eastern Europeans you refer working in local firms say this too ?

You didn't give numerous facts and figures. You gave us your selection of excerpts from a piece of journalism which was advancing an agenda. That's not a basis for a serious debate, other than a debate about journalism in Ireland.

So you cannot point to something I wrote and say it is a lie.;)

If it is not a lie to misrepresent somebody else's position after being told that it is a misrepresentation, and if it is not a lie to imply something and then deny it, then you might think that you are not a liar. In my book, you are a liar.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You didn't give numerous facts and figures. You gave us your selection of excerpts from a piece of journalism which was advancing an agenda.

I gave numerous facts and figures and quotations from the collection of public servants who had direct first hand experience of public sector wages in Ireland compared to their own countries, as well as the cost of living in both. I quoted many of the exact words and sentences they used. You have yet to do this with any " eastern Europeans working in local firms " ...and how is their experience relevant given our government is not having to borrow to pay them if they are working here ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In my book, you are a liar.

Given you cannot point to anything I wrote as "a lie", that says more about your book than me.

Scofflaw

jimmmy wrote: »

I gave numerous facts and figures and quotations from the collection of public servants who had direct first hand experience of public sector wages in Ireland compared to their own countries, as well as the cost of living in both. I quoted many of the exact words and sentences they used. You have yet to do this with any " eastern Europeans working in local firms " ...and how is their experience relevant given our government is not having to borrow to pay them if they are working here ?


Given you cannot point to anything I wrote as "a lie", that says more about your book than me.

It is quite true that you persistently misrepresent the positions of anyone who disagrees with your agenda, which itself is at this stage past a joke. Deal with other posters' positions as they themselves state them, not as you personally prefer to re- and mis-state them.

Have a couple of days to think over what I'm saying here.

moderately,
Scofflaw

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

But if Irish teachers were not paid so much more than the european average, then the governments education budget could be spent on employing more teachers, thus bringing down the ratio. Someone else pointed this out too. Why has everything to be repeated?

Jimmy, if the govt cuts teacher wages, will you be calling for the savings to be invested into employing more teachers?

Please don't avoid this question, a simple yes or no will do.