It would only take 4 weeks for the country to turn itself around!

Permabear

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97i9y3941

i have a feeling in the december budget that the taxpayer will get taxed again to make up for the pay of public servants,the policticans will put on crocodile tears when saying they will take another 10 percent paycut*which in honesty means fu#k all to their pay packages*,diesel will probably get an slight increase since its bit cheaper than petrol at the mo,theres talks of cutting child benefit,which makes me think they are trying to say is,well we cant afford to hire people to means test it so we do it this way....

jimmmy

Sand wrote: »

Supply and demand is responsive to price - course demands arent set by prices when 3rd level education is free. Id say if you were to leave 3rd level fees paid for by the state where they are economically useful and undersupplied ( the sciences) whereas reintroduce for courses which are....not...then youd see supply and demand of the courses shift as students consider if they want to truly invest in the true cost of a degree like philosophy which might be ....nice...but not particularly practically useful.


Government sacks public service workers who refuse reasonable terms, hires new ones, runs services on skeleton staff where possible, rallies public against a selfish, parasitic unions - crushes Silver Circle of public sector workers, restablishes reality and sanity in public sector. I really do hope the unions play hardball - They will be broken when they do, and Ireland needs to break them for the good of society.

Excellent post. For the sake of our children + grandchildren, the sooner it happens the better.

As one of the immigrants in the Irish public sector wrote in the paper last weekend " I'm not sure the people you hear whinging on TV and radio are strongly representative of the public service, but if they really feel life in Ireland is so terrible, they are free to leave".

97i9y3941

i support what sand said,the unions have the country by the balls,we need someone to stand up against this windfall of money the goverment seems to have to pay them...

lmimmfn

kinda off topic but relevent in the sense of strike action, why dont we have a contingency plan in this state that the Army can take over for most Public Service unionised jobs? e.g. train driving/bus driving/ambulance & paramedics etc. Its obvious they couldnt take care of everything but its a surefire thing that the unions will be trying to hold to country to ransom over the next few years.

97i9y3941

havent back in the 60-70s didnt it?,when the binmen/bus drivers went on strike,the army where called in?

lmimmfn

Fred83 wrote: »

havent back in the 60-70s didnt it?,when the binmen/bus drivers went on strike,the army where called in?

i dunno mate, too far back for me , but im surprised there is no current contingency plan for training( without incurring wage increases and all that nonsense for the armed forces ).

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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I can see the logic but would be much more favourable to a system based on results within the college; getting points in the leaving cert is very different to results within college itself, and the prevalence of grinds etc distorts the LC somewhat.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Would disagree with this though; the students who can afford to that seem to be the ones who's parents are paying for their education, as they don't need to work and have money to burn on booze so I am sceptical that fees would change this.

lmimmfn

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Would disagree with this though; the students who can afford to that seem to be the ones who's parents are paying for their education, as they don't need to work and have money to burn on booze so I am sceptical that fees would change this.

agree totally, i got my fees paid and a grant but had to work on building sites in summertime in scotland to pay for my degree.
People cant paint everyone with the same brush.

Fees should be means tested however there should be tax breaks for courses in which the industry needs employees, i.e. some Arts courses should have no breaks as a lot of arts courses provide 0 possibility of employment other than continuing with an academic career( in which case money could be refunded ).

ScouseMouse

greendom wrote: »

A female prime minister from not so far away went out with the intention of breaking a union 25 or so years ago. She managed it, but it took a hell of a lot longer than a month, and that was with the whole pack of cards stacked in her favour.

It may suit your ideology, but it is no way to run a country

Bring the old boot out out retirement and get the job done. Give her a millon quid - we will still save. This country is bollixed anyway. Serious action must be taken.

Start with the unions and the civil service.

dyl10

donegalfella wrote: »

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For that to be a fair system you'd either have to eliminate private/grind schools or weight a students points, based on the school he/she attended.

Permabear

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Permabear

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book smarts

Problems with sciences and technical subjects in schools as I see it:

A dumbed down curriculum with grade inflation used as a political tool so they can claim students are doing better when they are actually doing worse.

Huge bureaucracy, bullsh1t paper trails and inefficiency by teachers.

Litigation means teachers can't discipline as much anymore and kids know this, so run riot. Some teachers spend most of their time trying to keep order.

Not enough streaming so the stupid kids hold back the smart ones.

BS pop culture peer pressure on kids to be Pop Idol contestants or "gangstas" or whatever, neglect studies and just party.

Not enough respect given to the sciences and engineering.

No culture of independent scientific learning encouraged- The overrated "Young Scientist" competition is a poor effort compared
to schools in the US which nearly all have science fairs.

Sand

@Kickouthejams

Would also seem a bit strange to enact the above as a degree in science is no especial guarantee of employment (anecdotal I know but I know way too many people with a science degree and who are back doing an Arts degree), whereas humanities degrees can come in useful if you know what you want to do with them; analytical skills in history come in handy in a range of subjects, as I'm finding in law.

I dont entirely disagree - the government funding some courses while not funding others is similar to some degree to the dubious practise of "picking winners" supported by state protectionism.

I do feel however, the government cant simply write a blank cheque without doing some cost benefit analysis on each course. I want clever, capable people from all backgrounds to have access to pursue the development of their own skills and qualifications as best as they are able - but that doesnt mean Im going to fund every single course under the sun, especially subjects, such as the arts, which tend to be their own reward - I have an interest in classical history, especially the political history of the era, but its an interest I pursue at my own expense and in my own interest.

On the other hand, as others have noted, the government is attempting to build an economy focused on technology and R&D...mostly its hype right now, but if its ever to become reality then we need to incentivise our bright and capable students, from all backgrounds, to move into fields employers in those areas are looking for. Yes, arts might be one of those areas, but lets start from that beginning and see whats needed to get this so called SMART econonomy working.

As you noted, the usual "waster" student stereotype is often funded by mummy and daddy, but at least mummy and daddy will be paying the true cost of their little darlings 3 or 4 years off freeing up public resources for others. Other courses wont be outlawed, or barred, just those who wish to pursue them will have to do so at their own cost.

The education system as a whole needs an overhaul: basic civics ( not just theory, but practise in getting people registered, getting them familiar with parties and their local candidates) and basic philosophy (by which I mean a introduction to the framework of reaching a view without reference to the opinions of others, as opposed to a review of the learned opinions of philosophers which kinda defeats the purpose to my eyes) need to be mandatory from secondary on. It'll bring about better, more informed citizens - we desperately need to get people with a sense of ownership over their country. We dont have that today.

DFs right - its not a question of simply giving more money. Weve been doing that for a decade now, and results have at best been unremarkable, and at worst actually getting worse. We need to just look at education ( and indeed every aspect of the public governance in this country from the very top, to the very bottom), decide what our objectives are and build the structures to achieve them.

97i9y3941

the college grant system is aload of bollocks,since your only accessed on your income,those who have rich daddys who run companys etc can fiddle with the books so their little johnny can get it and piss it away whilst the working class who actually fund the system are told to **** off and cheat the system if you want it,then they always wonder how those who are from poorer backgrounds never make it there..

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Proof if it were needed that the union stranglehold on our essential services needs breaking, eh?!

And exchange it for a privitised stranglehold on essential services?

lmimmfn

Fred83 wrote: »

the college grant system is aload of bollocks,since your only accessed on your income,those who have rich daddys who run companys etc can fiddle with the books so their little johnny can get it and piss it away whilst the working class who actually fund the system are told to **** off and cheat the system if you want it,then they always wonder how those who are from poorer backgrounds never make it there..

the working class are exceptionally well catered for in Ireland when it comes to educating their kids, yes its a hard slog but Ireland is a very good place to easily up classes via cheap and affordable education for all classes. Theres no point getting pissed at the rich because they can do what they want, its nigh on impossible to prevent that unfortunately, however you should at least be happy that you and your kids can easily improve themselves.

Its about the only thing in this country that i actually think is fantastic.

mrgaa1

going back to the OP - would it not be possible for the glorious government to pass a bill that would ensure that striking during times when the country was on its knees would be outlawed and that anyone who attempted to do so would lose their jobs and someone else would be hired to take over their job. Why should unions hold the country to ransom when there is nothing to steal. Also perhaps the unions should be using their warchest to help top up some of their members wages etc... and then also why shouldn't the members be asking why they have so much.

ghost_ie

Sand wrote: »

@Kickoutthejams


Supply and demand is responsive to price - course demands arent set by prices when 3rd level education is free. Id say if you were to leave 3rd level fees paid for by the state where they are economically useful and undersupplied ( the sciences) whereas reintroduce for courses which are....not...then youd see supply and demand of the courses shift as students consider if they want to truly invest in the true cost of a degree like philosophy which might be ....nice...but not particularly practically useful.

@Ghost.ie


Government sacks public service workers who refuse reasonable terms, hires new ones, runs services on skeleton staff where possible, rallies public against a selfish, parasitic unions - crushes Silver Circle of public sector workers, restablishes reality and sanity in public sector. I really do hope the unions play hardball - They will be broken when they do, and Ireland needs to break them for the good of society.

Before you where you were public services would collapse. The health service (such as it is) would shut down as there would be too few qualified staff to run the hospitals.

Sand

Before you where you were public services would collapse. The health service (such as it is) would shut down as there would be too few qualified staff to run the hospitals.

Public sector workers would suffer along with everyone else - they wouldnt get medical care, they wouldnt get police protection, they wouldnt get state benefits. We could call in support from our EU partners, recruit doctors and qualified medical personnel from the developing world where they would be happy to work for contracts 25% of what doctors currently work for. The problem with you guys is that you think youre irreplaceable. Its a common misperception. You're not.

Bring it the **** on. I dare you. 300,000 versus 4.2 million? We'll break you and your corrupt cartel.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

And exchange it for a privitised stranglehold on essential services?

No, just break the unions. If a sector can be effectively and efficiently privatised then it should be, but many sectors cannot (justice etc.) and in these cases the union stranglehold should be broken. In Germany, just as an example, it is illegal for civil servants on any level to strike. The same sort of 'Taylor' laws exist in many US state run transport companies such as New York's MTA. Things can be done to reduce the union's deathly grip on society and the economy.

cyclopath2001

murphaph wrote: »

Things can be done to reduce the union's deathly grip on society and the economy.

I'd go along with that if it were also illegal for serving and former members of FF/Greens to be members of any council, the Dail or the public service.

97i9y3941

well the goverment is still draining the country dry,today it emerged that the head of the HSE is to get a lovely 70 thousand euros bonus,which was approved by the hse,at the same time,there are rumours coming out about cutting the pension,if thats the case im sure the senior citizens might come together and cause a revolution.

Idbatterim

I hear the social partners are going to enter negotiations! another waste of time! Tell them they are going to take a hit one way or another, if there are any strikes they take another lump from their pay! realistically I couldnt give a toss about the PS workers! they have nothing to complain about whatsoever! Quit the PS and join the dole or Private Sector if you want! Why are they even being listened to! it shouldbe be lets sit down and talk lads, it should be this is whats happening and required, if you dont go along with it, its going to get worse! I just read back a few posts there, about thinking their not replaceable, you hit the nail on the head, they are worthless! thats why i dont understand the government giving them any bargaining power!

greendom

superscouse wrote: »

Bring the old boot out out retirement and get the job done. Give her a millon quid - we will still save. This country is bollixed anyway. Serious action must be taken.

Start with the unions and the civil service.

Yeah right, good luck with that :rolleyes:

greendom

Idbatterim wrote: »

I hear the social partners are going to enter negotiations! another waste of time! Tell them they are going to take a hit one way or another, if there are any strikes they take another lump from their pay! realistically I couldnt give a toss about the PS workers! they have nothing to complain about whatsoever! Quit the PS and join the dole or Private Sector if you want! Why are they even being listened to! it shouldbe be lets sit down and talk lads, it should be this is whats happening and required, if you dont go along with it, its going to get worse! I just read back a few posts there, about thinking their not replaceable, you hit the nail on the head, they are worthless! thats why i dont understand the government giving them any bargaining power!

Great, so workers can only be exploited when time are bad; sounds good

murphaph

greendom wrote: »

Great, so workers can only be exploited when time are bad; sounds good

Is it exploitation only to pay the public sector what we can afford now?

lmimmfn

I think people here are mixing up exploitation in their work place WITH THE BLOODY FACT THAT THEY SHOULD BE HAPPY TO BE WORKING AT THE MOMENT!!!!!!!