It would only take 4 weeks for the country to turn itself around!

cyclopath2001

murphaph wrote: »

Is it exploitation only to pay the public sector what we can afford now?

That would depend on whether or not the books are being cooked. The relentless campaign against the public sector is a convenient distraction from the great bank bailout and NAMA swindle.

lmimmfn

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That would depend on whether or not the books are being cooked. The relentless campaign against the public sector is a convenient distraction from the great bank bailout and NAMA swindle.

no, the relentless campaign against the public sector is because we cant afford the damn thing in its current form.

ghost_ie

lmimmfn wrote: »

no, the relentless campaign against the public sector is because we cant afford the damn thing in its current form.

We could afford the public sector is the pay and bonuses of its top staff were cut.

For example, HSE chief Brendan Drumm has been given a bonus of €70,000 - that sum would pay 2 nurses for a year - on top of an obscene salary in the region of €300,000

Our Minister for Health has 3 Junior Ministers and a huge staff working in her Department. She says she is not responsible for the HSE, who run the health service. In that case, why the hell do we have one Minister and 3 Junior Ministers apparently paid a goodly sum on top of their TD salaries for being responsible for (and doing) nothing? Get rid of the whole Department of Health and leave the HSE to run things. A further advantage to this proposal is the Harney would have no reason to continue racking up an enormous bill (paid by the taxpayer) for using the government jet.

Poccington

lmimmfn wrote: »

kinda off topic but relevent in the sense of strike action, why dont we have a contingency plan in this state that the Army can take over for most Public Service unionised jobs? e.g. train driving/bus driving/ambulance & paramedics etc. Its obvious they couldnt take care of everything but its a surefire thing that the unions will be trying to hold to country to ransom over the next few years.

That's what would happen, it's been done before... Although I don't many lads in work that can drive trains

lmimmfn

ghost_ie wrote: »

We could afford the public sector is the pay and bonuses of its top staff were cut.

For example, HSE chief Brendan Drumm has been given a bonus of €70,000 - that sum would pay 2 nurses for a year - on top of an obscene salary in the region of €300,000

Our Minister for Health has 3 Junior Ministers and a huge staff working in her Department. She says she is not responsible for the HSE, who run the health service. In that case, why the hell do we have one Minister and 3 Junior Ministers apparently paid a goodly sum on top of their TD salaries for being responsible for (and doing) nothing? Get rid of the whole Department of Health and leave the HSE to run things. A further advantage to this proposal is the Harney would have no reason to continue racking up an enormous bill (paid by the taxpayer) for using the government jet.

While i agree with that its only part of the solution, total government costs are supposed to be in the region of 80million a year on salaries/expenses etc. ), now i heard that on the radio several months ago so dont quote me on that.

The problem is its too damn big, they are there to serve the public, the country is in deep recession we dont need all these guys anymore, there needs to be a kinfe cut through the whole sector. They all complain about the levy poor souls, they now have a form of contributary pension, well i say increase the levy on an optional basis and those who dont pay it get a substantially less pension when they retire.

Poccington wrote: »

That's what would happen, it's been done before... Although I don't many lads in work that can drive trains

lol, thats what i mean though would be good for them to get training so the country cant be blackmailed.

97i9y3941

RTE has to answer for itself too,intresting article in the sunday independent,showing what the presenters of tv3 would earn in contrast of their rte cousins,it showed that ireland am presenters get 80 thousand a year in contrast of RTE paying some of its staff 200 thousand a year...

Poccington

lmimmfn wrote: »

lol, thats what i mean though would be good for them to get training so the country cant be blackmailed.

I don't really think DF personnel should be getting sent off to learn how to drive trains, we have far more relevant and important courses being run in the DF that need to be completed.

When the PS strikes... And I really see it as being a case of when, not if. The DF won't strike and will of course fill the gaps but at the same time we still have our own job and commitments to meet. We're a small and busy force, so there's only so many gaps we can fill.

ghost_ie

lmimmfn wrote: »

While i agree with that its only part of the solution, total government costs are supposed to be in the region of 80million a year on salaries/expenses etc. ), now i heard that on the radio several months ago so dont quote me on that.

The problem is its too damn big, they are there to serve the public, the country is in deep recession we dont need all these guys anymore, there needs to be a kinfe cut through the whole sector. They all complain about the levy poor souls, they now have a form of contributary pension, well i say increase the levy on an optional basis and those who dont pay it get a substantially less pension when they retire. quote]

I don't know what the higher echelons of the public service receive in salaries but I do know what the lower orders get. My daughter is a nurse. She receives just under €35,000 a year before tax, PRSI, Income Levy, Health Levy etc. per annum. That's not an exorbitant salary, is it? Not when compared with what higher civil servants, td's, ministers and spin doctors are paid. After all, twice her salary is being paid to the head of the HSE as a bonus.

Certainly salaries should be cut - but let it be for those public servants earning over €100,000. This would include every TD in the country, and every member of every quango.

If the salaries of ordinary members of the Public Service are cut whilst those at the top remain untouched most of those young enough to do so will do what my daughter will do - emigrate. You will never have to pay her salary again. Her pension will be paid by another country. The elite will remain - expecting you to pay not only their salaries but their pensions as well

cyclopath2001

lmimmfn wrote: »

no, the relentless campaign against the public sector is because we cant afford the damn thing in its current form.

Is that because you need the money to bail out your banker and developer pals?

jimmmy

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Is that because you need the money to bail out your banker and developer pals?

Developers are not getting bailed out by Nama. That is a public sector union myth. Average deposit paid by the developers in Nama property was approx 20%. This was the developers profit from previous projects. The banks did not give 100% loans to developers. They were stupid, but not that stupid. Now the developer loses the 20%, whatever interest they paid on the loan, and the deeds of the property are lost to the developer / the developed will never get them or own the property or sell it. Explain how the developer has beneffited from " the bailout" ?

murphaph

Poccington wrote: »

I don't really think DF personnel should be getting sent off to learn how to drive trains, we have far more relevant and important courses being run in the DF that need to be completed.

When the PS strikes... And I really see it as being a case of when, not if. The DF won't strike and will of course fill the gaps but at the same time we still have our own job and commitments to meet. We're a small and busy force, so there's only so many gaps we can fill.

I don't see why the DF/Gardai are the only PS workers who can't legally strike. In Germany it's illegal for all PS workers to do so. You accept that when you join the PS here.

jimmmy

murphaph wrote: »

I don't see why the DF/Gardai are the only PS workers who can't legally strike. In Germany it's illegal for all PS workers to do so. You accept that when you join the PS here.

Hopefully Murphaph if + when some in the Irish public service go on strike here, they can leave Ireland if they think the p.s. here is such an awful place, and we can get some people from elsewhere in the EC, who will be delighted to work for say 75% of current average Irish public sector wages.

gurramok

jimmmy wrote: »

Hopefully Murphaph if + when some in the Irish public service go on strike here, they can leave Ireland if they think the p.s. here is such an awful place, and we can get some people from elsewhere in the EC, who will be delighted to work for say 75% of current average Irish public sector wages.

And when they do leave, they'd struggle to be paid the same salaries elsewhere so its a loss-loss for them.

lmimmfn

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Is that because you need the money to bail out your banker and developer pals?

er. dunno what you mean, have 0 property, 0 loans and 0 friends in the property sector or politicians

jimmmy

True enough. In last Saturdays feature on public service pay in the paper ( Indo ) , the hospital consultant Robert Drescher says he gets half what he earned in Ireland, for doing the same job !

Why do not Irish consultants and Irish public servants put their heads about the parapet and admit they are paid too much ? Why was it only the 6 immigrants in the Irish public sector in the paper ? Many ordinary taxpayers ( those who pay the govt instead of getting paid by the govt ) in this country are getting very fed up + disillusioned at our public service.

lmimmfn

jimmmy wrote: »

True enough. In last Saturdays feature on public service pay in the paper ( Indo ) , the hospital consultant Robert Drescher says he gets half what he earned in Ireland, for doing the same job !

Why do not Irish consultants and Irish public servants put their heads about the parapet and admit they are paid too much ? Why was it only the 6 immigrants in the Irish public sector in the paper ? Many ordinary taxpayers ( those who pay the govt instead of getting paid by the govt ) in this country are getting very fed up + disillusioned at our public service.

Its the typical greed attitude, i deserve it and no one will take it away from me

We got into this mess because of the greed attitute( which btw in a capitalism economy is 'supposed' to come from the private sector )

At the end of the day loads dont give a $hit about our economy only themselves and the world that revolves around them. Complete lost cause.

I hope the private sector gets shut down in ireland, that'll sort this $hit out.

rugbyman

i like the tone of Sands stuff as obviously do others. As an opponent of militant unions all my life( though realising they have a role to play), i do not see or hear much of militant unions at the moment. the spokesmen have to say something, thats their job, but if there are to be harsh measures taken, the public at large are ready for them. there is no Govt or public support for strikes ,where those on strike were paid over the average for their sector.

finally ,the increases (were there 21) over recent years were doled out by the Govt. rather than gained by the unions.

regards ,Rugbyman

rugbyman

I have been quoting these figures for some time, dont know where i read them.

can anyone tell me if they are even NEARLY right.

teachers earn 20,000 more than nurses

guards earn more than teachers.

right ? wrong?


I heard on the radio today that irish teachers earn 40 % more then european average.

Regards,Rugbyman

jimmmy

lmimmfn wrote: »

We got into this mess because of the greed attitute( which btw in a capitalism economy is 'supposed' to come from the private sector )

Who says " in a capitalism economy is 'supposed' to come from the private sector" ? source ? link / or how do you figure that ? And was the politbureau in Moscow not greedy in its own way in the cold war era ?

lmimmfn wrote: »

I hope the private sector gets shut down in ireland, that'll sort this $hit out.

You are not releated to Mugabe by any chance ? Not too many people advocate shutting down a private sector. No prizes for guessing where you work;)

Lockstep

murphaph wrote: »

In Germany it's illegal for all PS workers to do so. You accept that when you join the PS here.

Is it?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/public-sector-strike-brings-chaos-to-germany-792075.html

jimmmy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Is it?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/public-sector-strike-brings-chaos-to-germany-792075.html

Interesting points from that article...it says
"thousands of the country's two million public sector workers went on strike, demanding pay increases. "


How come a country of what 60 million ???? has only 2 million public servants ( despite its nato obligations etc ) , and us with a population of approx 4 million have 330,000 public servants ? If Germany had the same ratio as us, they would have roughly 5 million public servants ?

I guess the Germans were always good at efficiency. Sack half our p.s.

Is the reason public sector wages are so much less in Germany compared to here due to the greater sense of civic duty in Germany, or better government, or less greedy unions ?

murphaph

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Is it?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/public-sector-strike-brings-chaos-to-germany-792075.html

I should have qualified my statement. It is illegal for Beamten to strike;

Manche Bürgerrechte sind eingeschränkt, z. B. erlaubt ihr Treueverhältnis zum Staat den Beamten kein Streikrecht.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beamter Sorry, it's all in german but it means a civil servant cannot strike. It's complicated, but not all public servants in Germany are Beamte (sort of civil servant). These folks are not allowed to strike.

greendom

murphaph wrote: »

Is it exploitation only to pay the public sector what we can afford now?

Of course not, but it is to take away their basic rights - I have no issue with a pay freeze or even a drop if that is required. I do think though, that the recession is not a reason to dissolve trade unions

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

If Germany had the same ratio as us, they would have roughly 5 million public servants ?

here's a link to a report which suggests there are over 5 million public sector workers (and does not mention army as far as i can see)

http://www.rpani.gov.uk/index/rpa-reviewresearch-decisions/research-old/study-visits/germany.htm

the difference from figures quoted in the article may be to do with the different set-up in Germany - federal, local etc

Rob67

In last Saturdays feature on public service pay in the paper ( Indo ) , the hospital consultant Robert Drescher says he gets half what he earned in Ireland, for doing the same job !

Yes, many other people consider the Indo a valid resource for continuing rhetoric and bias against a certain sector of society. Of course, the Indo is not agenda driven, is it...?

Why do not Irish consultants and Irish public servants put their heads about the parapet and admit they are paid too much ?

Because there is enough baying for Public Sector blood as it is? Many of my former colleagues, who are not paid even close to the alleged €966 per week, are taking the brunt of such tirades from Joe Public.

Why was it only the 6 immigrants in the Irish public sector in the paper ? Many ordinary taxpayers ( those who pay the govt instead of getting paid by the govt ) in this country are getting very fed up + disillusioned at our public service.

Maybe because it wouldn't have suited the slant the article was taking, after all the article could not have fired up enough righteous indignation if " 'Mary' from Ballivor, is a Clerical Officer in the Dept of Funny Walks. Her chief responsibilities are ensuring that all those members of the public who have not been issued their statutory Funny Walk are informed as to when it will be issued and what form the Funny Walk will take. Mary is expected to make these decisions because her immediate superior has retired and she is required to take on her superior's job in conjunction with her own work due to her former superior's position not being filled as a result of the embargo on promotions and recruitment." You get the idea.

It's so easy to point and blame, so easy to say: 'this needs to be done and that needs to be cut/removed/ replaced'. It gets those, who are easily led, to be the footsoldiers in a war of misinformation. Not all the facts are available from both sectors but it is easier to blame the Public Sector as an arm of Government than it is to blame the political masters.

After all, everyone gets the chance to vote for them and we still put them in there, don't we?

We, as a nation, spent ourselves into a frenzy and racked up the debt problem we face.

Private sector mandarins had to hire all those people to feed our avarice and greed, what do you think they were going to do when things went south? keep all of them on the payroll? Fat chance! Business looks after itself and no-one else.

Of course, business leaders are the best people to take advantage of a recession, not many of them are that badly off as they may say, the Irish are the greatest at playing the poor mouth. I know of one or two bosses who are cutting the pay and/or bonuses of their staff just so they can increase their profit margins in these times, but their own circumstances don't change, would you consider that to be fair?

We are all looking to blame someone.

So, I ask you, who is really to blame?

Lockstep

4.2 million Irish, 330k public sector works; 7.8%
82million Germans, 4.5 million PS workers (according to their own statistics office), 5.5% of the population.

We're ahead but I don't see the figure as anything scandalous

Rob67

Riskymove wrote: »

here's a link to a report which suggests there are over 5 million public sector workers (and does not mention army as far as i can see)

http://www.rpani.gov.uk/index/rpa-reviewresearch-decisions/research-old/study-visits/germany.htm

the difference from figures quoted in the article may be to do with the different set-up in Germany - federal, local etc

It does, as the Federal armed forces and defence administration, in the paragraph relation to the federal administration.

Scofflaw

jimmmy wrote: »

You are not releated to Mugabe by any chance ? Not too many people advocate shutting down a private sector. No prizes for guessing where you work;)

How about you don't assume everyone who disagrees with you is a civil servant - particularly since you mean it as a term of abuse? And, while we're on the subject, how about you don't try to turn every thread into an attack on the Irish civil service?

moderately,
Scofflaw

Poccington

murphaph wrote: »

I don't see why the DF/Gardai are the only PS workers who can't legally strike. In Germany it's illegal for all PS workers to do so. You accept that when you join the PS here.

Oh I fully agree, if you join the Public Sector you're there to provide a service.

You don't suddenly stop providing that service in an attempt to throw your toys out of the pram.

NewDubliner

kickoutthejams wrote: »

4.2 million Irish, 330k public sector works; 7.8%
82million Germans, 4.5 million PS workers (according to their own statistics office), 5.5% of the population.

We're ahead but I don't see the figure as anything scandalous

Does the German public sector include Electricity, Gas and Health?