17 HMR groupings

mac80

I was shooting some paper targets today and have noticed that shooting without the silencer effects my accuracy hugely.

Is this normal?

Mac

CJhaughey

In a positive or negative way?

mac80

Sorry, it has a negative effect on the groupings.

meathstevie

Maybe changes it effects on the balance of the gun as you hold it. The additional weight might help you holding the gun steadier.

rrpc

mac80 wrote: »

I was shooting some paper targets today and have noticed that shooting without the silencer effects my accuracy hugely.

Is this normal?

Mac

There's usually less recoil with a moderator on, so that would certainly affect your accuracy.

Cass

The extra weight of the surpressor can act as a barrel tuner which can reduce barrel resonance. A surpressor that slides partially or fully down the barrel also has the same effect and aids in accuracy. I remember being told of a thing called barrel boost. Where the gases in the barrel build up and after the exit of the bullet the gases "blow" out at close to 4,000+ fps and give the bullet a quick boost. It doesn't make a huge difference but a difference all the same. Not personal experience but seems to be some truth behind it.

Depending on the barrel and surpressor on it you will find most surpressors will increase accuracy but some can effect it in a negative way and reduce accuracy and cause a small to massive drop in point of impact. I know a lad who shot at 200 yds without a surpressor and was on bull. Put on a huge surpressor and the point of impact was 8 inches lower than bull. Put on a longer, narrower surpressor and the point of impact was 1.5 inches higher than bull.

Personally i can get better grouping with the surpressor on my .308 than without (at 300yds anyway). A muzzle break will do the same job. It will also effect your point of impact but obviously without the noise reducing feature. Suppose its all down to the right surpressor for the right rifle.

mac80

Cheers lads, i'll keep the suppressor on anyway cos the HMR is fairly loud without it.
i wasnt even hitting ther A4 paper target when the mod was off !

Mac

buckshotbrolan

Could i ask you what type of mod ye are using? Im experiencing the same problems. Cheers

riflehunter77

mac80 wrote: »

Cheers lads, i'll keep the suppressor on anyway cos the HMR is fairly loud without it.
i wasnt even hitting ther A4 paper target when the mod was off !

Mac

When reading this first I thought you groups might of opened up by a inch. But to be not even hitting paper what the hell :eek::eek:. Id be checking the treading on both rifle barrel and moderator. Dont be over tighting the moderator either.

My grouping opens a little without the mod on about half an inch.

riflehunter77

rrpc wrote: »

There's usually less recoil with a moderator on, so that would certainly affect your accuracy.

I can see were you coming from with a centerfire rrpc but this is only a rimfire so there should be no recoil. But he could be flinching with the mod off as the 17 Hmr has quite a crack out of it for a small round.

Cass

I don't have any experience with moderators from a technical point as like most i make sure they are on properly, they fit and they are suitable for the calibre i'm using it on.

I did a bit of checking and it is a general consensus that 2 factors contribute to severe drop in your point of impact.

A) The first is refered to as "bleeding". Where the gases from the barrel "bleed" back or out into the moderator and reduce the muzzle velocity of the bullet causing the severe drop.
The second is a moderator that has "bafles" or rubber rings which the bullet physically touches, by the smallest amount, hence slowing the bullet as it travels through the moderator.

I have never shot my rifle over 300yds with the moderator on but as riflehunter said i only experienced a 1-2 inch difference (generally higher point of impact) with it on as oppose to off. The drastic drop you are experincing mac80 could be down to one of the 2 reasons above. Also check your ammo. I know alot of people use sub sonic ammo when using a moderator and they in themselves are a slower round than the standard round you may use without the moderator. I reckon you are better off going to a range and trying different rounds at 100yds with and without the moderator. Find the exact drop and get the necessary clicks to bring you back on target so if you are out and want to take a shot with or without the mod on you know how to adjust the scope to allow for the different point of impact.

kakashka

mac80 wrote: »

Cheers lads, i'll keep the suppressor on anyway cos the HMR is fairly loud without it.
i wasnt even hitting ther A4 paper target when the mod was off !

Mac

Hey Mac,do you mean your groups were wider than A4 or when you took supp off you could not hit A4?if you zero with supp on and then take off supp your POI will be different as the supp weight actually bends the barrel,some guns i've seen have a perfect vertical line while others also pull left or right,if you mean groups are wider than A4 then i'd be checking gun

mac80

Without the mod the round was hitting higher, I'll go back out a fire a few more rounds off and report back.
Its a Parker Hale .22 mod that I am using, but they are used by quite a few on HMR rifles.

Mac

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

.........as the supp weight actually bends the barrel,........

Are you being serious? I know i said i don't know alot about the technical aspects of a moderator but there is no way in hell a moderator would bend the barrel of a rifle. The Parker Hale .22 moderator is only a few hundred grams. If a moderator was able to bend a barrel there would be obvious scrape marks down the inside of the barrel as the bullet followed the bend of the barrel. That is of course assuming it didn't peel the barrel back like a banana or cause a misfire and destroy the rifle or tear of the mod on its way out.

My mod is far heavier than the Parker Hale probably around a pound weight but the barrel is far stronger and heavier to acomodate the round being fired therefore the mod still would have no "bending" effect on it.

buckshotbrolan

Il have to agree with ya there, the barrel is to stronge for any bending to occur but im no exbert. I had loads a trouble with the Parker Hale mod; would send the rounds all over the target[ on a windless day].

kakashka

ezridax wrote: »

Are you being serious? I know i said i don't know alot about the technical aspects of a moderator but there is no way in hell a moderator would bend the barrel of a rifle. The Parker Hale .22 moderator is only a few hundred grams. If a moderator was able to bend a barrel there would be obvious scrape marks down the inside of the barrel as the bullet followed the bend of the barrel. That is of course assuming it didn't peel the barrel back like a banana or cause a misfire and destroy the rifle or tear of the mod on its way out.

My mod is far heavier than the Parker Hale probably around a pound weight but the barrel is far stronger and heavier to acomodate the round being fired therefore the mod still would have no "bending" effect on it.

yes i am being serious.of course a mod will bend a barrel,i dont know the weights or spec involved here but no matter, your mod will bend the barrel,sometimes insignificantly,sometimes a huge amount,(fractions of an inch are huge amounts here)i never implied bananna shaped barrels ezridax
ps do you think a bullet passes through your barrel without touching it???!!!

It wasn't me!

kakashka wrote: »

yes i am being serious.of course a mod will bend a barrel,i dont know the weights or spec involved here but no matter, your mod will bend the barrel,sometimes insignificantly,sometimes a huge amount,(fractions of an inch are huge amounts here)i never implied bananna shaped barrels ezridax
ps do you think a bullet passes through your barrel without touching it???!!!

It will exert a levering force on it, yes, but depending on the stiffness of the barrel, its length, the weight of the mod, even the mod's design, it's likely that the barrel will not bend to any practically measurable extent. Hundreds of thousandths of an inch are utterly insignificant. To conduct an experiment, weigh your mod, then remove it and hang soft material of the same weight from the end of the barrel and see how the points of impact and accuracy compare. I'd want that data, plus measurement of the extent to which a barrel is bent, before I'd think about that assertion.

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

yes i am being serious.of course a mod will bend a barrel,............ your mod will bend the barrel,sometimes insignificantly,sometimes a huge amount,......

Never let it be said i have a closed mind. My mod creates a point of impact 1.5 - 2.5 inches higher than without. So by your reasoning the mod on my rifle creates extra weight (however insignificant) and as we all know weight pulls down towards the earth (gravity) therefore the barrel of the gun is weighted downwards. So how does the shot climb?

Also as i said the weight of the .22 mod is tiny. So how could it bend the barrel down to such an extent that he can hit the A4 paper with it on but with the mod off his point of impact is over 6 inches higher.

ps do you think a bullet passes through your barrel without touching it

Yeah they put the grooves down the barrel for show. Please....:D

Slug chucker

Hi,

I think as far as I know the Parker Hale is only rated for .22LR subsonic ammunition. The pressures on a .17HMR have knocked the stuffing out of any Parker Hales I've seen when using them with .17's, popping the threads and distorting the baffles causing bullets to tip off them. As noted by everybody else the point of aim at 100 yards should only shift by an inch or so when the moderator is taken off, I've always found my rifles shoot a little bit high after I put a moderator on, they don’t miss the target by 6" which would be the case if you’re using the centre of an A4 sheet as an aim point. Anyway, have a good look down your moderator and check it for baffle alignment with the rod supplied. SAK make one suitable for the .17, it’s widely available.

A crackin little round in the field the .17HMR, will probably be my next firearm if there’s a next

Cheers,
Slug Chucker

bunny shooter

Slug chucker wrote: »

Hi,

I think as far as I know the Parker Hale is only rated for .22LR subsonic ammunition. The pressures on a .17HMR have knocked the stuffing out of any Parker Hales I've seen when using them with .17's, popping the threads and distorting the baffles causing bullets to tip off them. As ............

+1

moose112

Think i posted this already on some other thread but a local gun smith laughed at me when i told him i had bought a second hand sako quad with a parker hale moderator.
He was saying i need a moderator specially designed for a 17hmr, costing roughly €400:eek: it apparently designed by some Irish guy who was a aviation engineer. Told him i would get back onto him, a friend of mine said he heard sako make one for the quad but all my searching has gone in vain.

buckshotbrolan

moose112 wrote: »

Think i posted this already on some other thread but a local gun smith laughed at me when i told him i had bought a second hand sako quad with a parker hale moderator.
He was saying i need a moderator specially designed for a 17hmr, costing roughly €400:eek: it apparently designed by some Irish guy who was a aviation engineer. Told him i would get back onto him, a friend of mine said he heard sako make one for the quad but all my searching has gone in vain.

If ya look on the Shooting Times web site there's a good airticle on mods for the 17hmr, never heard of one for 400 buck's tho!.I've also heard the rumour that Sako do a mod, any one ells out there know if its true can't find jack on it.

Slug chucker

There’s a few good one’s out there available:
ASE Ultra Rimfire (I have a centre fire one) well made but expensive and heavy.
SAK do a nice one and it’s available in silver if you has a stainless barrel, I don’t think they are too expensive.
A couple of the lads got Sak moderators, they say they are the quietest ones they used and their very light compared to their old ASE Rimfire ones as well.
heres a link to the subject:
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/rifles/381445/17HMR_calibre_sound_moderators_review_.html
Cheers,
Slug

Slug chucker

Damh it! I was thinking about buying the Remington 597 after I saw it for sale in Duffys website. Look at what I found:
http://www.remington.com/safety/17_HMR_Ammo_notice/default.asp
The bloody things have been recalled!
I wonder is it just a small mod or catastrophic eat shrapnel twisted metal back to the drawing board kind of failure. Again, damh it!
I was looking forward to buying it after the current dust settled.
Ah well, does anybody know of a semi auto rifle in .17 HMR on sale in this country?
Cheers,
Slug

bunny shooter

Slug chucker wrote: »

There’s a few good one’s out there available:
ASE Ultra Rimfire (I have a centre fire one) well made but expensive and heavy.
SAK do a nice one and it’s available in silver if you has a stainless barrel, I don’t think they are too expensive.
A couple of the lads got Sak moderators, they say they are the quietest ones they used and their very light compared to their old ASE Rimfire ones as well.
heres a link to the subject:
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/rifles/381445/17HMR_calibre_sound_moderators_review_.html
Cheers,
Slug

+1 ................... again

riflehunter77

moose112 wrote: »

Think i posted this already on some other thread but a local gun smith laughed at me when i told him i had bought a second hand sako quad with a parker hale moderator.
He was saying i need a moderator specially designed for a 17hmr, costing roughly €400:eek: it apparently designed by some Irish guy who was a aviation engineer. Told him i would get back onto him, a friend of mine said he heard sako make one for the quad but all my searching has gone in vain.

Moose get yourself a SAK there about 45 to 50 euro, i have one on my Marlin 17hmr over 2 odd years now. It cuts down on the crack quite abit and it wont break the bank either.. 400 euro for a rimfire mod thats made my day , if that whats he is charging for a moderator whats he charging for firearms and optics..

Traumadoc

Slug chucker wrote: »

Damh it! I was thinking about buying the Remington 597 after I saw it for sale in Duffys website. Look at what I found:
http://www.remington.com/safety/17_HMR_Ammo_notice/default.asp
The bloody things have been recalled!
I wonder is it just a small mod or catastrophic eat shrapnel twisted metal back to the drawing board kind of failure. Again, damh it!
I was looking forward to buying it after the current dust settled.
Ah well, does anybody know of a semi auto rifle in .17 HMR on sale in this country?
Cheers,
Slug

Maybe the time to buy one. As ironically it becomes a collectors item.
http://www.firearmsid.com/mkportal/smf/index.php?topic=153

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372351

Slug chucker

Traumadoc,
I get the impression from what I'm reading on the web the case's are rupturing, probably when the gun is not clean. Funny enough I've seen a whole load of cracked cases coming from a savage in .17 HMR. I just put it down to neck sizing but maybe there's more to it like poor quality cases. They were cracked from neck to base in a few.
I’m not pretty but I could do without getting my face remodelled by a .17 case. I’m a leftie so there would be no escape if there was an semi-open bolt case rupture.
Cheers,
Slug

foxshooter243

Slug chucker wrote: »

Traumadoc,
I get the impression from what I'm reading on the web the case's are rupturing, probably when the gun is not clean. Funny enough I've seen a whole load of cracked cases coming from a savage in .17 HMR. I just put it down to neck sizing but maybe there's more to it like poor quality cases. They were cracked from neck to base in a few.
I’m not pretty but I could do without getting my face remodelled by a .17 case. I’m a leftie so there would be no escape if there was an semi-open bolt case rupture.
Cheers,
Slug

The problem with cases splitting in the 17 hmr is caused because they use an ordinary 22 magnum case which is already rim primed and neck it down to .17-the manufacturers cannot anneal the case at the neck and shoulder because its already primed so they have a tendency to split, theres two schools of thought on it, one says its not a problem because the cases arent reloadable anyways with them being rim primed, the other is the lad who had his eye scorched with gas blowback!:eek: - but there has to be a further problem if the cases are rupturing, cos in those instances there would be some flame cutting of the barrel which couldnt be good in the long run..all the cases regardless of who loaded them came from the same place originally but im not sure if its still the same.

marlin vs

[FONT=&quot]This should give some explanation.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Bob Palmer at Hornady, in an e-mailed reply to me:[/FONT]
CCI makes the cases for all the .17 HMR ammo and loads it for the different companies. When they make the cases they draw the case out to a .22mag case that has a straight wall. Then the priming compound is put in the rim of the case. The case is spun to put the primer evenly in the rim.

After the priming is complete the case mouth is reduced to the .17 caliber to hold the bullet. The reduction process, however, puts stress on the neck of the case. They obviously cannot anneal the neck of the case to relieve the stress because of the compound in the rim, so from time to time you will get a case that cracks. Some batches may produce more splits than others. The chamber pressure on .17 ammo is so low that it does not hurt the chamber on the rifle.

They have tried to anneal the cases more before it's formed to .17, but this did not eliminate the cracks altogether. If the cracks were minor I would continue to use the ammo. The cracks do not affect the accuracy of the round and the brass is not reloadable.
[FONT=&quot]http://www.cci-ammunition.com/education/safety_notice.aspx[/FONT]

Traumadoc

Lots of my cases had split necks,:eek: I think it may also have to do with the difficulty in cleaning a semi auto reciever.

Will irish firearms dealers compensate if these rifles are returned?