the future for Irish politics

Spiritoftheseventies

If as people are predicting the Greens get wiped out at the next elections, what will be the knock on effect for Irish politics.
Will we see an end of Rainbow coalitions and a return to the days of FG/Labour coalitions and FF on their own in power
Put simply given that FF have effectively led to the demise of PDS and perhaps the Greens, are we going to see a return to the old days of the late seventies and early eighties.

Biggins

I think you have summed it up in the last line.
Untill the emergence of another party that can take seats, the merry-go-round of swapping between usual parties will begin again, only using different numeric variations.

Spiritoftheseventies

Yes heard an interesting debate on the Workers party a few weeks ago (a new book out called the Lost Revolution, and no I have no affiliations there) and they remarked how they always remained true to their beliefs.
Im of the opinion that most parties at one stage or another get sucked into the centre. I wonder is there a party out there that has enough integrity that it will actually stand up for its principles in terms of representing the less well off in this country.
I think Labour let themselves down over the whole Eircom share debacle given that their former leaders involvement there and same with a former FG leader who spoke out recently in favour of NAMA.
What i would like to see happen is political leaders being "discouraged" from taking positions on boards as it just makes me very cynical about the process.
I will say I was impressed with Brendan Howlin on Week in Politics and I think Richard Bruton for me is another one who has something to offer FG.
But I see a situation where Kenny will lead next Government as leader of the largest party. Don't see any situation where Gilmore will get it unless Labour over take FG and I cant see that happening.
Would say some are just unsure as to Labours allegiances post election. They say they wont go into power with FF but it all boils down to the numbers ultimately.

alfranken

First off people have to take things seriously and elect people based on experience, competence and qualifications. The nepotism, gombeenism and apathy has to go.

Biggins

alfranken wrote: »

First off people have to take things seriously and elect people based on experience, competence and qualifications. The nepotism, gombeenism and apathy has to go.

Totally agree but until for a start, there is greater transparency and accountability by our TDs, the public will kop themselves on, there will be little change.

ih8northsiders

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes heard an interesting debate on the Workers party a few weeks ago (a new book out called the Lost Revolution, and no I have no affiliations there) and they remarked how they always remained true to their beliefs.
Im of the opinion that most parties at one stage or another get sucked into the centre. I wonder is there a party out there that has enough integrity that it will actually stand up for its principles in terms of representing the less well off in this country.
I think Labour let themselves down over the whole Eircom share debacle given that their former leaders involvement there and same with a former FG leader who spoke out recently in favour of NAMA.
What i would like to see happen is political leaders being "discouraged" from taking positions on boards as it just makes me very cynical about the process.
I will say I was impressed with Brendan Howlin on Week in Politics and I think Richard Bruton for me is another one who has something to offer FG.
But I see a situation where Kenny will lead next Government as leader of the largest party. Don't see any situation where Gilmore will get it unless Labour over take FG and I cant see that happening.
Would say some are just unsure as to Labours allegiances post election. They say they wont go into power with FF but it all boils down to the numbers ultimately.

the less wall off are more than looked after in this country.

Spiritoftheseventies

Would you care to elaborate?

murphaph

wasn't Howlin next in line in the list of TDs with their snouts in the expenses trough though? Very few of them in there really give a toss about representing the people.

Euro_Kraut

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes heard an interesting debate on the Workers party a few weeks ago (a new book out called the Lost Revolution, and no I have no affiliations there) and they remarked how they always remained true to their beliefs.

Didn't the Worker Party leadership (e.g. De Rossa, Gilmore, Rabbite) form 'New Agenda' in the early 90's? This then became Democratic Left which eventulaly merged into Labour. I think the spin about staying true to thier values is over stated.

Long Onion

I find it amusing that a sizeable portion of activists fro the workers party don't actually work.

Boskowski

bayviewclose wrote: »

Im of the opinion that most parties at one stage or another get sucked into the centre. I wonder is there a party out there that has enough integrity that it will actually stand up for its principles in terms of representing the less well off in this country.

I know this is going to sound like Monthy Pythons 'Jehova' to some, and what do I know since I'm only a blow-in, but what about...

...Sinn Fein?

Spiritoftheseventies

realcam wrote: »

I know this is going to sound like Monthy Pythons 'Jehova' to some, and what do I know since I'm only a blow-in, but what about...

...Sinn Fein?

Well Sinn Fein probably not long enough down here to form a coalition and I think three main political parties have ruled forming allegiances for the time being.

Tricity Bendix

bayviewclose wrote: »

If as people are predicting the Greens get wiped out at the next elections, what will be the knock on effect for Irish politics.
Will we see an end of Rainbow coalitions and a return to the days of FG/Labour coalitions and FF on their own in power
Put simply given that FF have effectively led to the demise of PDS and perhaps the Greens, are we going to see a return to the old days of the late seventies and early eighties.

Can't see Fianna Fáil winning an overall majority in this country for at least a generation. Governments will alternate between FG/Lab, FF/SF, FF/Lab, and, if the left gets very big, FF/FG.

lmimmfn

bayviewclose wrote: »

Well Sinn Fein probably not long enough down here to form a coalition and I think three main political parties have ruled forming allegiances for the time being.

Sinn Fein need a more up to date core agenda to get anywhere in the elections.

Sand

Sinn Fein arent electable really and their brief 15 minutes of fame is declining. Fianna Fail is immoral in that it looks the other way when its members steal from the taxpayer. Sinn Fein is immoral in that it looks the other way when its members murder people. Bad and all as Fianna Fail are, they arent quite that bad.

evercloserunion

murphaph wrote: »

wasn't Howlin next in line in the list of TDs with their snouts in the expenses trough though? Very few of them in there really give a toss about representing the people.

It's bad that he abused the expenses system like that but it's not the end of the world. When you think about it the money lost through expenses scandals is negligible in the general scheme of things.

Regarding giving a toss about representing the Irish people, I don't think that abusing expenses shows a disregard for the Irish people. It shows a lapse of character certainly. But if such a "trough" as you put it is left there it practically invites the noses of anyone who can get in there. I'm not defending Howlin's expenses by any means but you have to look at what else he has done. Howlin tends to know what he is talking about and can speak in public without making a fool of himself (which I have to say is a very rare trait in a politician these days) and IIRC he has a solid history of representing his constituents.

Sand

When you think about it the money lost through expenses scandals is negligible in the general scheme of things.

Its indicative of a mindset that feeds through into all their decisions and actions. No one is saying the expense scandals are in and of themselves huge issues, but JODs attitude to the public purse was that it was his money to spend as he wished living the life of Reilly. It is hardly surprising then that he was part of a corrupt party which has massively and incompetently spent the taxpayers money to buy votes with little concern over the taxpayers needs.

Thats why its a big issue. ITS OUR MONEY THEYRE SPENDING.

Lame Lantern

For those predicting Sinn Féin based coalitions, there's no way it will happen. No government will have its foreign policy credentials taken seriously with them in government. Also, the public would freak out. Recall when Enda Kenny briefly opened that window and the media tore them to pieces. There is room in Irish politics for liberalism. The PDs didn't acknowledge that the current middle classes aren't as avaricious or meritocratic as libertarian or neoliberal voters tend to be, the Greens haven't acknowledged the anti-FF/FG sentiment of their constituents. Between them, there is enough room for a modern moderate party of middle-class liberalism to emerge. And we trend toward the centre because our political divide emerged from civic rather than ideological divisions, compelling parties to debate on issues rather than resort to the amorphous ideological namecalling of the UK or US two-party systems. In my view it's a better option.

Boskowski

Sand wrote: »

Sinn Fein arent electable really and their brief 15 minutes of fame is declining. Fianna Fail is immoral in that it looks the other way when its members steal from the taxpayer. Sinn Fein is immoral in that it looks the other way when its members murder people. Bad and all as Fianna Fail are, they arent quite that bad.

May that as it be, but the original question I replied to was about everyone getting sucked into the center and who is left there with some sort of integrity willing to stand up for their principles.

From my limited experience on observing politics in this country - but with political interest nonetheless - they seem to be the only ones with some significance who don't appear corrupted by politics itself and with an actual ideology.
Everyone else seems pretty indistinguishable from the next guy, more or less just 'playing the game' as it has manifested itself over the decades and basically looking out for themselves.

Feel free to correct me on this...

Sand

An idealogy which endorses terrorism and murder pretty much by definition cant be corrupted. I dont see why thats praiseworthy?

bonkey

Guys...Sceptre had to do a lot of cleanup on a thread last night which ignored the OP and went down the road of SF-bashing etc.

I'd be very careful about derailing another thread in the same direction, only a few hours later.

Spiritoftheseventies

Yes I think we need to give SF the chance to fulfil their role in becoming a full fledged political party.
Its not going to happen over night but I think to be fair Caoimhin O Caoilean was upfront about his expenses on Morning Ireland this morning.
I know Burke was well respected for his work in Dublin central so yes I think provided they are there to represent the will of the people they should be considered.
Problem is Coalitions do not tend to be kind on coalition partners. Every small party aspires to getting their principles implemented but I think you have the case that when they don't get them implemented they leave it at that rather than walk.
I think there was plenty of oppurtunity for PDS and Greens to do that but they did not take it.
I would have certain problems with a former Labour leader re his role with Eircom but overall he was forthright enough to pull his party out when Reynolds was in Govt.
I think with Gilmore calling time on O'Donoghue he has sent a message that he is a political force to be reckoned with.
Cowen could have agreed to his proposal of meeting him in private and then we could have avoided the charade that was yesterday's speech in the Dail.
So I think we can probably rule out a FF/Labour coalition now given that Cowens bluff with Gilmore failed.
Gilmore did not take it last week and I think as such FF would not risk him pulling his party out on another issue.

Euro_Kraut

realcam wrote: »

May that as it be, but the original question I replied to was about everyone getting sucked into the center and who is left there with some sort of integrity willing to stand up for their principles.

Well their position on Northern Ireland has changed radically over the last 20 years. They now occupy the 'centre' when its come to Unification (to them the most important issue in their manifesto). Their position is virtually indistinguishable from other parties.

In the Republic they only have been a political force since the 1997. They are untested in Govt. People would have said prior to 2007 that the Greens were very ideological and 'stood up for their principles'. Of courses it is very easy to do that in opposition but once you go into a coalition as a Junior partner the reality is that you can only expect to implement between 10-20% of your agenda. There record in Government in Stormont is not particularly radical either.

Spiritoftheseventies

Sand wrote: »

Sinn Fein arent electable really and their brief 15 minutes of fame is declining. Fianna Fail is immoral in that it looks the other way when its members steal from the taxpayer. Sinn Fein is immoral in that it looks the other way when its members murder people. Bad and all as Fianna Fail are, they arent quite that bad.

Yes sooner or later Shinners will be become a fully fledged political party. Not sure if people are fully up with their history but politicians were still carrrying guns into the dail many years after the civil war had ended.
And yes Fianna Fail are that bad. Again we had a situation at the weekend where there was talk of them rowing back on the Public sector cuts.
They talk of making the tough decisions but they never do where it matters.

Sand

And yes Fianna Fail are that bad. Again we had a situation at the weekend where there was talk of them rowing back on the Public sector cuts.

Yes Fianna Fail are bad. They are not "blood drenched sociopaths" bad. Hence they are not *that* bad. See how that works?

Spiritoftheseventies

Wont go into all this civil war politics but SF were at situation FF were in 30s and 40s. Like I said let us see if SF embrace democracy fully. Just as we cant keep condemning FF and FG for their deeds during war of Independence and Civil War, we cant keep blaming SF for ever for what went on thirty or forty years ago. End of the day they have laid down the gun. Agreed it will take a long time before they fully shake off their paramilitary past but it will happen eventually.

Lame Lantern

bayviewclose wrote: »

Wont go into all this civil war politics but SF were at situation FF were in 30s and 40s. Like I said let us see if SF embrace democracy fully. Just as we cant keep condemning FF and FG for their deeds during war of Independence and Civil War, we cant keep blaming SF for ever for what went on thirty or forty years ago. End of the day they have laid down the gun. Agreed it will take a long time before they fully shake off their paramilitary past but it will happen eventually.

I think a lot of people would be infuriated that a party that for decades balked at mainstream politics and led their supporters down a path of radical anger and often militarism would now seek to take a position of leadership in a country that has at last succeeded in its project of establishing a prosperous and stable republic despite their consistent and beligerent antagonism.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I think a lot of people would be infuriated that a party that for decades balked at mainstream politics and led their supporters down a path of radical anger and often militarism would now seek to take a position of leadership in a country that has at last succeeded in its project of establishing a prosperous and stable republic despite their consistent and beligerent antagonism.

All of the nationalist parties balked at "mainstream politics" until relatively recently ofcourse. Accepting mainstream politics meant accepting the Northern state and the partition of Ireland.

Getting more on topic, I think we need to change the pool that TDs are drawn from. This means making it easier for different types of people to become TDs ie getting the different talent out.

At the moment the people striving to be elected are generally male, from a narrow range of occupations. Thus the cumulative experience and range of skills in the Dail is limited. ie you get many, many TDs who are basically the same animal, reducing overall potential and duplicating talent (and lack of).

How to do this is a question. I would have a minimum quota for women TDs ala local councils. This has worked well in Sweden.

Reduce the organisational overhead on TDS (offices employees etc organised for them.)

I would not be in favour of the FG list system for electing TDs.
I think you should know who youre electing and the risk is parties would use teh list for getting people in who would have no chance in a local election. Can be a good thing but generally thats a bad thing.

Lame Lantern

T runner wrote: »

All of the nationalist parties balked at "mainstream politics" until relatively recently ofcourse. Accepting mainstream politics meant accepting the Northern state and the partition of Ireland.

Sinn Féin did not take their seats in the Dáil in the free state, while every other party did. While successive governments had their successes and failures, they worked within a constitutional framework to move the country from a free state to a republic whereas Sinn Féin dithered around launching into tirades both against the British and Irish states. Engaging in the mainstream did not mean accepting the partition of Ireland as there was no public appetite for that. It meant pursuing the path of diplomacy rather than violent beligerence. When the PDs insisted on a bilateral strategy in relation to the north after ten years of failed Fitzgerald and Haughey approaches, Sinn Féin had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the thoroughly reasonable fold. They remained on the fringes of the peace process while the Irish government and SDLP worked toward a peaceful, equitable agreement.

Such a party should be nowhere near the helm of a republic, even if they've since declared themselves less mental.

T runner

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Sinn Féin did not take their seats in the Dáil in the free state, while every other party did.

Yes they did not accept the Anglo-Irish agreement.
They eventually peeled off the Sinn Fein skin and largely came in under Fianna Fail.

Engaging in the mainstream did not mean accepting the partition of Ireland as there was no public appetite for that.

Engaging in the mainstream in the North effectively meant accepting the legitimacy of NI and therefore legitimacy of partition. Still does.
You are right re the republic. It is possible to have been in the Dail yet still being opposed to partition.

When the PDs insisted on a bilateral strategy in relation to the north after ten years of failed Fitzgerald and Haughey approaches, Sinn Féin had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the thoroughly reasonable fold.

Yes the same with the DUP. The question that Sinn Fein/DUP need to answer is: what were all the years since Sunningdale about?

They remained on the fringes of the peace process while the Irish government and SDLP worked toward a peaceful, equitable agreement.

True.

Such a party should be nowhere near the helm of a republic, even if they've since declared themselves less mental

I actually agree with that, although they do have a right to be there if thats the way it crumbles. I particularly dislike Sinn Feins use of their support only for votes