Who the hell can I vote for ?

bauderline

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, it would be VERY nice to see FG dump Enda Kenny (mid Atlantic) and Labour and stand on its own merits with a message similar to the above. It'll never happen though.

.. how the FG party haven't twigged that Enda Kenny is an awful bloody liability is completely beyond me.

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

So your saying that by discussion and a democratic process they can't come to a satisfactory conclusion?

Thats exactly what Im saying.

Do you ever read the Political Theory threads arguing between Libertarians and Communists? There have been thousands and thousands of words said by each side and yet neither has ever come remotely close to agreeing on any broad policy. Clearly no amount of talking will change this.

Biggins wrote: »

To use one rough example: all the waring factions up north have had different ideas about how to do things.

Yeah thats one single issue. Im sure I could sit done with aforementioned communists and come to agreement on many small issues. However running a country requires a little more than picking one single issue. You have to agree on everything.

There were 2 warring factions in the North, and it took 30 years. Imagine 84 factions, as in a majority of independents in the Dail. How long will governing the country take? Can we wait while 84 people squabble over what percentage to raise bus fares by?

Biggins wrote: »

Who will blindly stand up still and say many sides can't come at times together and reach the same principles!

Thats not what you suggesting at all. Your suggesting that many sides will come always together and always reach the same principles. That is not going to happen, like it or not.

lmimmfn

bauderline wrote: »

Yes, it would be VERY nice to see FG dump Enda Kenny (mid Atlantic) and Labour and stand on its own merits with a message similar to the above. It'll never happen though.

.. how the FG party haven't twigged that Enda Kenny is an awful bloody liability is completely beyond me.

Kenny is an absolute disaster, he's dull, lacks enthusiasm, just moans about everything FF does without even highlighting alternatives and has crap leadership skills.

FG needs someone with balls, someone to who'll rattle all the cages and not give a crap other than getting the country back in shape.

I like Eamon Gilmore from the labour party( he speaks a lot of sense, some crap too of course ), but i dont like labour in general so thats that fecked lol.

turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And whats even more frustrating is that you know if a fiscally responsible Liberal party did emerge, FG would suddenly find said courage and hijack their policies and win over the electorate.

FG are a disgrace. They're lead opposition to probably the most unpopular government in the history of the State, and yet they are getting nowhere. If they had a bit of cop on, and strong leadership, there would be little doubt that a one party majority could be a realistic goal. At the moment they are wallowing in a state of complacency.

loobylou

I agree with and thanked the OP for articulating my own position. Subsequent posts refer to the OP's sig suggesting he has an "agenda". Probably not the right place to ask, but I cannot see sigs or avatars on my laptop but can on the work computer. Never bothered me before, just saw it as aesthetic, but can somebody tell me how to enable sigs/avatars?

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

Thats exactly what Im saying.

(1) Do you ever read the Political Theory threads arguing between Libertarians and Communists? There have been thousands and thousands of words said by each side and yet neither has ever come remotely close to agreeing on any broad policy. Clearly no amount of talking will change this.

(2) Yeah thats one single issue. Im sure I could sit done with aforementioned communists and come to agreement on many small issues. However running a country requires a little more than picking one single issue. You have to agree on everything.

(3) There were 2 warring factions in the North, and it took 30 years. Imagine 84 factions, as in a majority of independents in the Dail. How long will governing the country take? Can we wait while 84 people squabble over what percentage to raise bus fares by?

(4) Thats not what you suggesting at all. Your suggesting that many sides will come always together and always reach the same principles. That is not going to happen, like it or not.

(1) Thats only one example. For each example we could tit-for-tat throw at each other, one will always be the opposite of the other.
Clearly some work more successfully than others.

(2) ..or at least find a common ground where if compromise could be sought, it could be a start.

(3) You have a point but we have waited already since the antic's of Mr Haughty (if not before), to find a decent, honest government.
While I won't hold my breath for things to change - we have to do something to shake up the now established merry-go-round.

(4) Where did I say that exactly. In case you haven't noticed previously, I was talking about common ground. Nobody (person/organisation) agrees with with another 100% most times.
Never said "always" in both cases you mentioned. If I did, can you point me to exactly where?

Again, to repeat:

I'm not advocating that we should be voting independent at every election.
But until the main groups get the message, come and get their act together, a message has to be hammered home to them.

Until we do that, nothing will bloody change. We will stick in one fashion or other with the same type of characters/actions within the Dail.
Knowing that one way or another they will be always propped up by willing complacent sheep of this country, gives them a basic reassurance that their positions are comfortable to some extent ...and thus we continually get what we get!

What I'm also suggesting by saying we should support independents too, is for some voters, an easy method of wakening the tired established up from their safe complacently that they will always be elected one way or another.

bauderline

loobylou wrote: »

I agree with and thanked the OP for articulating my own position. Subsequent posts refer to the OP's sig suggesting he has an "agenda". Probably not the right place to ask, but I cannot see sigs or avatars on my laptop but can on the work computer. Never bothered me before, just saw it as aesthetic, but can somebody tell me how to enable sigs/avatars?

Look for "User CP" at the top of the page, after clicking on that you should see options to "Edit SIG" etc..

Also, my only agenda is to try to figure out if there is anyone worth voting for at the next election or moan about the general lack thereof....

P.

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

(4) Where did I say that exactly.

When you said that whole country could be run by 84 people with no idealogical or policy similarities, you were saying that every issue could always be worked out. This is because you were arguing that that system would work.

Sand

I'll be going for Fine Gael, if as DF has advised, they cast themselves as the party of fiscal responsibility. They do have a heritage of getting things done (When proto-Fianna Fail threw a hysterical strop over the treaty and sparked a civil war, proto-Fine Gael set up the state and got it running under very difficult circumstances...) and cleaning up the messes of Fianna Fail.

Currently FG are simply the least worst of a very bad lot. Its a question of them giving people a reason to vote for them - come out strongly, and effectively on expenses and Dail reform, senate reform, public sector and social welfare, against NAMA and waste - take ownership and offer voters an option they dont get with Labour or Fianna Fail. Labour is just more of the same, Fine Gael at least dont have the idealogical baggage preventing them from addressing the fiscal crisis by firstly ruling out paycuts or job losses in the public sector.

They could even try stealing Green floating voters by stealing the least daft, most effective of their enviromental policies. The Greens are dead in the next election, might as well start looting the corpse now.

bauderline

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever about the motives behind bauderline's post, or his affiliation to any party, I think all of the questions and points are fairly spot-on.

Add in the reports of everyone in the Dail clapping O'Donoghue today, and it looks like it's going to have to be a complete de-lousing of Dail Eireann before there's anyone worth voting for.

Anyone know some good exterminators, and a day that ALL TDs will be present and - if possible- "accounted for" ?

Well Bev Coop Flynn stood up and clapped, but noone joined her standing ovation so maybe they have some sense of the public mood... let me repeat.... "some"..... not a lot...

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

When you said that whole country could be run by 84 people with no idealogical or policy similarities, you were saying that every issue could always be worked out. This is because you were arguing that that system would work.

True and I meant it.
If we are willing to put our personal points aside for the common good of all, things could be worked out.
yes, its idealistic and far off to say the least ...but I for one, am willing to try.
(never said anything about 84 people etc, you brought that stuff up!)

Anyway, we need to wake the Dail mob up - and if that means a sharp shock treatment, I'm all for it.

VOTE INDEPENDENT!

Sand

The independants are effectively the dregs that couldnt maintain the standards and accountability expected by a Fianna Fail backbencher....

Biggins

Sand wrote: »

The independants are effectively the dregs that couldnt maintain the standards and accountability expected by a Fianna Fail backbencher....

So thats a "no" then?

Atwork

bauderline wrote: »

Well I'll be dipped !!!

Smack Bang right on top of the green part dot... Excuse me whilst I go shoot myself....

Same as that, "Im Shocked" and a little sad.

bauderline

Atwork wrote: »

Same as that, "Im Shocked" and a little sad.

It would appear that a growing number of us are closet green supporters... strange... I don't think I have even given them a preference vote at any election..

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

If we are willing to put our personal points aside

I wasnt on about personal points. I was on about how people feel the country should run.

Biggins wrote: »

for the common good of all, things could be worked out.

The 'common good' is like the words equality and fairness: they mean completely different things to completely different people.

Biggins wrote: »

never said anything about 84 people etc, you brought that stuff up!

Majority of the Dail = 84

Biggins wrote: »

VOTE INDEPENDENT!

Are you seriously considering running? You mentioned it in another thread.

irish_bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Well, if Labour give a guarantee that they'll balance the budget through a combination of cutting PS wages and social welfare, reform of ministerial expenses, etc., then they'll get my vote.

Otherwise the ONLY option for the future of this country is Fine Gael, regardless of how spineless or misled you think they are, they've an alternative to NAMA and have said they will cut the PS wages and reform the PS & Health Service akin to the Dutch Model where patients are a profit not a cost .

i dont recall fine gael saying they would cut ps wages , i heard george lee say they shouldnt be any further cuts and i heard enda kenny say only those earning above 100k should face cuts

loobylou

bauderline wrote: »

Look for "User CP" at the top of the page, after clicking on that you should see options to "Edit SIG" etc..

Also, my only agenda is to try to figure out if there is anyone worth voting for at the next election or moan about the general lack thereof....

P.

Thanks for that.... and still agree with you.

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the day after the tory conference ended last week , the GUARDIAN had a front page headline of , CAMERON DECLARES WAR ON STATE , wouldnt it make us all feel warm inside to see the IRISH TIMES with a headline , KENNY DECLARES WAR ON STATE

seriously though , fine gael need to rediscover thier conservative soul they once had and pitch for the sleeping giant of middle income private sector voters who have no voice at partnership talks

bauderline

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont recall fine gael saying they would cut ps wages , i heard george lee say they shouldnt be any further cuts and i heard enda kenny say only those earning above 100k should face cuts

Proves a point really... no one has a notion exactly WHAT they stand for or what their policies actually are... I suspect the reason why we don't know what their policies are is because they don't know..

Liam Byrne

bauderline wrote: »

Well Bev Coop Flynn stood up and clapped, but noone joined her standing ovation so maybe they have some sense of the public mood... let me repeat.... "some"..... not a lot...

So that puts her out there as the primary offender.

But ANYONE who clapped - even while sitting on their fat arses - should be noted and told in no uncertain terms to **** off when they come knocking looking for votes.

irish_bob

PomBear wrote: »

and i'd remind you without the IRAs intervention, the nationalists of NI would still be treated as subhuman

when sinn fein comes to my door looking for votes , i never mention the north , i simply tell them i am not a socilist just as i would tell labour i am not a socilist

sceptre

Hands up anyone who notices the title of the thread?

Now while some of you are derailing the thread with your usual crappy argument that always seems to come about whenever Sinn Fein are mentioned I hope you're having fun as I'm just going to give infractions etc to anyone from this point who continues down that line anywhere after this post. Judgement solely mine. So don't do it. This isn't a creche. Other people that aren't you use the forum as well and they're less mean spirited about hogging it.

I strongly suggest looking at the thread title, the first post, probably the last reasonable post back a page or two and moving on from there. Assume my words are backed with nuclear weapons.

edit: I've gone back and deleted all the troublesome posts. Seriously, some of you people should be ashamed for hijacking threads. You're going to stop doing that even if i have to make you, it's not fair on the rest of us sane people. If you don't start it, don't help it by responding to it.

bauderline

Well..

Thanks for cleaning up the thread at any rate..

P.

PomBear

sceptre wrote: »

Hands up anyone who notices the title of the thread?

Now while some of you are derailing the thread with your usual crappy argument that always seems to come about whenever Sinn Fein are mentioned I hope you're having fun as I'm just going to give infractions etc to anyone from this point who continues down that line anywhere after this post. Judgement solely mine. So don't do it. This isn't a creche. Other people that aren't you use the forum as well and they're less mean spirited about hogging it.

I strongly suggest looking at the thread title, the first post, probably the last reasonable post back a page or two and moving on from there. Assume my words are backed with nuclear weapons.

edit: I've gone back and deleted all the troublesome posts. Seriously, some of you people should be ashamed for hijacking threads. You're going to stop doing that even if i have to make you, it's not fair on the rest of us sane people. If you don't start it, don't help it by responding to it.

Neither of us were acting childish and we were havng a mature discussion which is a main concern for people voting for Sinn Féin, a legitimate Irish political party.

bauderline

Listen, we'll start a new thread for this tomorrow, keep the admins happy, its worth discussing a bit more...

At least the threads don't get burnt out after they are hijacked...

sceptre

PomBear wrote: »

Neither of us were acting childish and we were havng a mature discussion which is a main concern for people voting for Sinn Féin, a legitimate Irish political party.

My definition of "mature" obviously differs from yours.

Two options if you disagree with a mod ruling:
1. PM the mod (the quicklink to do that to PM me is here).
2. Start a thread on Help Desk (that's here).

Pick one. There isn't an option 3. Arguing on-thread about it is the non-existent option 3.

Either way kindly carefully heed the warning.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

fine gael need to move to the right so as to counter labour,s sharp move to the left of late but this wont happen under kenny who is a centrist through and through , he also makes the swing vote hesitate and the swing vote has more or less deserted fianna fail , my choice for leader would be leo varadakarr but im not sure he has that much broad appeal , us irish need to think our leaders are nice people , ivan yates had both the hard nosed business approach and the personable demeanor needed to bring about change , such a pity he decided to become a full time bookie , part time broadcaster

ectoraige

bauderline wrote: »

It would appear that a growing number of us are closet green supporters... strange... I don't think I have even given them a preference vote at any election..

I don't find that at all surprising, we let ourselves down at the ballot box time after time. Our largest parties are centrist populist parties that lurch from initiative to initiative, basing policy on what polls, opinion pieces in the Sunday papers, and backroom lobbyists have to say. Labour have been going down that path for a number of years too. The parties that are actually policy driven are left to fight for the scraps in the larger constituencies, relying on transfers.

The tragedy for the Green party is that, going on policy alone, they would have a much wider appeal then they get at the polls. This is borne out by the fact that most of the hostility towards them is based on what they *aren't* doing, ignoring the political reality that when you only have six seats in government, you can't run every policy area.

Suppose we had an electoral system whereby each candidate registered an ordered list of policy proposals they support, which are then presented in a long list in the polling booth, with no indication of the candidate. People would give preferences to the proposals they want to see implemented. Were this the way candidates were chosen, we would see very few Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael members in Dáil Eireann.