Is a furlough the answer to the Public Service wage bill?

picpress

As has been said in the media that the public service wage bill needs to be cut I am wondering is a selective furlough the answer to the required savings. This is the solution that is being tried in the USA. If used with trimming the fat in public organisations the required savings can be met.

Just putting it out there .... don't shoot the messanger.

lmimmfn

picpress wrote: »

As has been said in the media that the public service wage bill needs to be cut I am wondering is a selective furlough the answer to the required savings. This is the solution that is being tried in the USA. If used with trimming the fat in public organisations the required savings can be met.

Just putting it out there .... don't shoot the messanger.

put that in front of the unions and they'll take their furlough and still want the same pay

mikemac

Would it have to be mandatory?

Could they not expand the scheme they currently have. It could be taken up for parents with young children or maybe people looking to go to college and then come back

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

I'm a civil servant and I have to say I think they should have extended that incentivised career break scheme (had to take it by September 1). That might have got rid of a few more people for a while at least...the early retirement scheme isn't working as well as they had hoped but we'll have to wait a bit longer to see. The age profile in the civil service is fairly high, which obviously means the wage bill is higher. If a greater onus was placed on luring this demographic into early retirement then the wage bill reductions would be a lot more significant.

The furlough idea (much as I hate the idea of it coming into being) seems like it could work. Can't see it happening though.

lmimmfn

deccurley wrote: »

I'm a civil servant and I have to say I think they should have extended that incentivised career break scheme (had to take it by September 1). That might have got rid of a few more people for a while at least...the early retirement scheme isn't working as well as they had hoped but we'll have to wait a bit longer to see. The age profile in the civil service is fairly high, which obviously means the wage bill is higher. If a greater onus was placed on luring this demographic into early retirement then the wage bill reductions would be a lot more significant.

The furlough idea (much as I hate the idea of it coming into being) seems like it could work. Can't see it happening though.

well as a PS yourself dont you think the unions would destroy the idea? my wife is in the PS and would love something like that, the furlough that is

picpress

mikemac wrote: »

Would it have to be mandatory?

Could they not expand the scheme they currently have. It could be taken up for parents with young children or maybe people looking to go to college and then come back

A furlough generally is an unpaid day off once or twice a a month and definatly would suit parents with young children. I think what you are talking about going back to college is more like a career break. As the majority of the PS workforce is female I think it would be a runner with families if they could afford it.

picpress

deccurley wrote: »

I'm a civil servant and I have to say I think they should have extended that incentivised career break scheme (had to take it by September 1). That might have got rid of a few more people for a while at least...the early retirement scheme isn't working as well as they had hoped but we'll have to wait a bit longer to see. The age profile in the civil service is fairly high, which obviously means the wage bill is higher. If a greater onus was placed on luring this demographic into early retirement then the wage bill reductions would be a lot more significant.

The furlough idea (much as I hate the idea of it coming into being) seems like it could work. Can't see it happening though.

There was a stop put on the incentivised career scheme in the the health service because the unions would not agree to people being used to cover for the people who left also it was only open to certain catagories of worker. My own sister wanted to leave but was prevented. If the object of the excerise is to reduce the PS wage bill then a furlough is far better than the other option of strike action and still have the wages cut in the end.

FGR

Personally I would love to the option of a career break.

Won't see it happening in my part of the PS, though.

picpress

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Won't see it happening in my part of the PS, though.

Why not .... lets look at the problem the country is broke and the gov needs to save money they have three options :-1. cut the public service pay bill 2. cut public services by loosing staff or 3.increase taxes for everybody. The answer lies in a little of the three I think. By having a furlough across the PS the Gov gets the savings required in the short term while keeping the system running. They will not want to have this for the long term as services will suffer so unlike a pay cut which is very hard to to turn around a furlough stops when times get better again. BTW did I mention that along with the one or two days off you also pay less taxes beacause you are earning a little less. Also those with over inflated wages pay more. Of course this will not suit everybody but it is better than the alternative of imposed pay and staff cuts in the public service and also to have the higher taxes as well. Remember where you heard it first

eoinbn

picpress wrote: »

As has been said in the media that the public service wage bill needs to be cut I am wondering is a selective furlough the answer to the required savings. This is the solution that is being tried in the USA. If used with trimming the fat in public organisations the required savings can be met.

Just putting it out there .... don't shoot the messanger.

If there is fat, cut it- why play silly games?
The public sector isn't hugely overstaffed, especially in the position that deliver the services. However, just like everyone else in this country, it is vastly overpaid for the strength of our economy. We are a basket case economy paying the some of the highest wages and highest welfare in the world.

dvpower

deccurley wrote: »

I'm a civil servant and I have to say I think they should have extended that incentivised career break scheme (had to take it by September 1). That might have got rid of a few more people for a while at least.

But mainly younger lower paid workers, heading off to OZ to escape the gloom.

lmimmfn

wage cuts and optional higher levies( otherwise you get less pension at the end ) is the only way to go for the PS.

Tipp Man

Can we not just sack each and every 1 of them (keep whatever pension they have to date), re-evaluate each and every position, axe positions which aren't actually needed and re-hire a whole new public sector a defined contributions pension, an accountable appraisal system tied into a proper promotion system. All positions/person can be hired fired as required. Basically fire them all and start again running it like a proper company

As an aside how come in my county council there are exactly the same amount of people employed in planning as there was 3 years ago??

cyclopath2001

Tipp Man wrote: »

Can we not just sack each and every 1 of them (keep whatever pension they have to date), re-evaluate each and every position, axe positions which aren't actually needed and re-hire a whole new public sector a defined contributions pension, an accountable appraisal system tied into a proper promotion system. All positions/person can be hired fired as required. Basically fire them all and start again running it like a proper company

You make it sound so simple.

I bet you must already be running a successful country somewhere.

picpress

Tipp Man wrote: »

Can we not just sack each and every 1 of them (keep whatever pension they have to date), re-evaluate each and every position, axe positions which aren't actually needed and re-hire a whole new public sector a defined contributions pension, an accountable appraisal system tied into a proper promotion system. All positions/person can be hired fired as required. Basically fire them all and start again running it like a proper company

Thats going to happen the real world like!!

Electric Sheep

Tipp Man wrote: »

Can we not just sack each and every 1 of them (keep whatever pension they have to date), re-evaluate each and every position, axe positions which aren't actually needed and re-hire a whole new public sector a defined contributions pension, an accountable appraisal system tied into a proper promotion system. All positions/person can be hired fired as required. Basically fire them all and start again running it like a proper company

As an aside how come in my county council there are exactly the same amount of people employed in planning as there was 3 years ago??

How would things keep running in the interval between the sacking and the re-hiring? Who would do the evaluation and how much would it cost?

Not naysaying the idea, just wondering...

cyclopath2001

Electric Sheep wrote: »

How would things keep running in the interval between the sacking and the re-hiring? Who would do the evaluation and how much would it cost?

You put the jobs on Ebay and get people to bid for them....

Dimitri

It seems almost everyone has jumped on the band wagon for cutting pay in the public service but no one is thinking of the long run. If we cut the wages and if the economy rebounds on the back of them we'll simply be left with an exodeous out of the p.s. Before anyone starts shouting about how good the ps is ask yourself one question, if the jobs were so over payed why didn't you take one during the boom years? Very real savings can be made within the ps, cutting wages is the typical dumb as a post irish reaction which will only serve to shoot us in the foot 5-10 years time, it won't mater if its mandatory time off or lay offs or anything else cutting ps wages is not going to end well.

lmimmfn

Dimitri wrote: »

It seems almost everyone has jumped on the band wagon for cutting pay in the public service but no one is thinking of the long run. If we cut the wages and if the economy rebounds on the back of them we'll simply be left with an exodeous out of the p.s.

and what wrong with that? thats a great thing.

Dimitri wrote: »

Before anyone starts shouting about how good the ps is ask yourself one question, if the jobs were so over payed why didn't you take one during the boom years?

Well because we got our degrees in other things, had no interest in being a nurse or a guard. If i had knows an nurse with a 2 year diploma and 3 years work under his/her belt gets 40k( at an age of 23/24 ) with a guaranteed 15k overtime a year, FFS there is now way i would be a software developer.

Dimitri wrote: »

Very real savings can be made within the ps, cutting wages is the typical dumb as a post irish reaction which will only serve to shoot us in the foot 5-10 years time, it won't mater if its mandatory time off or lay offs or anything else cutting ps wages is not going to end well.

I think you are missing the point, PS wages should ALWAYS ALWAYS be lower than private sector work, for the simple fact of job security + pension is worth more in the long run. Public Sector = Socialism( with a nice big cushion to ensure job security etc. ), Private Sector = Capitalism( you can lose your job at the drop of a hat, its a bigger risk, a bigger gamble so it should pay more ).

At the end of the day though at least im in the private sector and can skip country handy and loads like me, lmao, public sector have no option but to stay haha

Dimitri

Its not a great thing the private sector cannot operate without the ps. The public sector is far more than just our nurses and guards. For the most part most of our experienced engineers surveyors and other technical people, graduates such as yourself, would have fetched a far higher price in the private sector. These people are crucial to the smooth running of an economy. They stayed for a lower guaranteed wage and work, they stayed for a tax free lump sum when they retired. Thats the conditions we hired them under, yes the situation is drastic so the obvious solution is change those conditions, but if we do this it is essentially what the private sector does which leaves the government constantly having to outbid the private sector for workers, grand at the moment but if they had to that in the previous 10 years the country would've gone bust long before now. Cutting public sector wages is a short term solution creating a long term problem. Massive changes need to take place within the public sector and now is the perfect time to do it. The simply isn't the political will from the government nor their so called opposition, who are increasingly showing themselves up as being equally inept. There is no doubting that we need to stop bleeding money we don't have but lets not create yet more problems by doing that. There seems to be an awful assumption that because the average public sector pay is higher than the the average private sector pay that these people are being overpayed. The reason it is so high is because the dail seannad and the top level executives in the government departments and all the many many useless quangos are getting astronomical pay. Cutting the average persons wages working for their county or city council is going to be a disaster. Cutting teachers wages is not good for education. Cutting thenurses pay is not good for our health etc. The wrong people will be targeted by this and well suffer not the political elite.

southie

im working in the public sector and i would love to have one of those huge wages all of us in the "public sector" seem to have, i earn grosswage of 37,000 and thats after 12 years working in the "public sector" think if i was working in supermacs i would be nearly as well off.

Please dont tar us all with the same brush some of us work bloody hard for a pay not that different to what you are on and i have a husband and child to support on that wage.

lmimmfn

Dimitri wrote: »

Its not a great thing the private sector cannot operate without the ps. The public sector is far more than just our nurses and guards. For the most part most of our experienced engineers surveyors and other technical people, graduates such as yourself, would have fetched a far higher price in the private sector.

leaving out the specific jobs( nurses/guards etc. ) public sector workers should be failed/uninterested private sector workers, there CANNOT be competition, either you choose a high risk potentially high return job or choose a will be the same until you retire job in terms of prospects and remuneration.

Dimitri wrote: »

These people are crucial to the smooth running of an economy. They stayed for a lower guaranteed wage and work, they stayed for a tax free lump sum when they retired.

Oh yes thet did, now theyre getting higher pay than the sector that finances them. THAT IS INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, more secure job, big lump sum and guaranteed pension against the private sector job of getting layed off at any time.

Dimitri wrote: »

Thats the conditions we hired them under, yes the situation is drastic so the obvious solution is change those conditions, but if we do this it is essentially what the private sector does which leaves the government constantly having to outbid the private sector for workers

Again the government should NEVER have to outbid private sector workers, its not a damn competition, you dont just pluck people from the private sector at a high salary rate and stuff them in the public sector at the same wage but with all the security and pension of a PS job.
The PS should be private sector rejects which they are to be honest.

Dimitri wrote: »

grand at the moment but if they had to that in the previous 10 years the country would've gone bust long before now.

how? every time i see a public sector tosser when i need something done theyre all hanging around chatting with massive queues( last time i was in the mullingar tax office ), my misses worked in several departments and the WOULD NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES streamline their jobs, she was routing through records manually FFS what an absolute disgrace.

Dimitri wrote: »

Cutting public sector wages is a short term solution creating a long term problem.

Cutting PS wages is a long term solution, tell you what hows about all of us that earn the money to pay you guys f*** off to another country and leave you, the TD's and the dole heads to sort out your own problem, maybe then youll realise that WE pay your salary, if we dont like you we do not need you!!!!!!!!!! you are our employees

Dimitri wrote: »

Massive changes need to take place within the public sector and now is the perfect time to do it. The simply isn't the political will from the government nor their so called opposition, who are increasingly showing themselves up as being equally inept. There is no doubting that we need to stop bleeding money we don't have but lets not create yet more problems by doing that. There seems to be an awful assumption that because the average public sector pay is higher than the the average private sector pay that these people are being overpayed.

Dimitri wrote: »

Again we can walk and youll have 0 nothing

Dimitri wrote: »

The reason it is so high is because the dail seannad and the top level executives in the government departments and all the many many useless quangos are getting astronomical pay. Cutting the average persons wages working for their county or city council is going to be a disaster.

Dimitri wrote: »

I agree on the quangos but it needs to be cut across the board

Dimitri wrote: »

Cutting teachers wages is not good for education.

They get paid too much, get too much holiday time, its inefficient and we cannot afford it.

Dimitri wrote: »

Cutting thenurses pay is not good for our health etc. The wrong people will be targeted by this and well suffer not the political elite.

Again the same as for the teachers.

Seriously i would beg all you guys in the PS to go on strike, give us in the private sector and full on 100% reason to leave, then who will pay you? who will pay that nice 100% secured job? honestly im fed up with this, being pushed a little more i will leave, im not paying for you guys at your current salary/entitlements end of story. If you dont like it, join me and my mates in the private sector and see how you like it.

and no offense, but paragraphs would have been nice

lmimmfn

southie wrote: »

im working in the public sector and i would love to have one of those huge wages all of us in the "public sector" seem to have, i earn grosswage of 37,000 and thats after 12 years working in the "public sector" think if i was working in supermacs i would be nearly as well off.

Please dont tar us all with the same brush some of us work bloody hard for a pay not that different to what you are on and i have a husband and child to support on that wage.

poor you, i worked as a software developer in the private sector for 7 years and was on your salary, i worked an average of 50 hours a week, had a lot of stress( but i like the challange ), got no guaranteed pension, no guaranteed job, f*** all. I was happy to have a job and loved my job.

I know guys in the same job as me that are on 39k after 10 years, they still dont have the same security as you or pension yet they will have more stress than you, will have to take their work home, will have to work longer hours.

Its hard for you yes, but hows about the fact that you could lose your job tomorrow if you were in the private sector? what are you, your hubby and child going to do then? the reality is you have a safe job, the private sector doesnt( but have worse work conditions than you in regards pension/stress )

southie

lmimmfn wrote: »

poor you, i worked as a software developer in the private sector for 7 years and was on your salary, i worked an average of 50 hours a week, had a lot of stress( but i like the challange ), got no guaranteed pension, no guaranteed job, f*** all. I was happy to have a job and loved my job.

I know guys in the same job as me that are on 39k after 10 years, they still dont have the same security as you or pension yet they will have more stress than you, will have to take their work home, will have to work longer hours.

Its hard for you yes, but hows about the fact that you could lose your job tomorrow if you were in the private sector? what are you, your hubby and child going to do then? the reality is you have a safe job, the private sector doesnt( but have worse work conditions than you in regards pension/stress )

Excuse me security? pension? what the hell are you on about ? this is the same tarring us all with the same brush again? i could loose my job tomorrow in fact its a very real possability, if i loose my job ill go on the dole get my rent paid, get my medical card (as will my husband and child), get my fuel allowance oh and any and every social welfare payment that im entitled to. Why would you think that i couldn't loose my job please explain that to me might save a few of the sleepless nights i have been having.

ardmacha

Why not just close down the PS for November and December, without pay. That would give the cuts desired by some here and I could go off somewhere nice, just hoping that someone from the private sector doesn't loot my house when I am gone.

lmimmfn

southie wrote: »

Excuse me security? pension? what the hell are you on about ? this is the same tarring us all with the same brush again? i could loose my job tomorrow in fact its a very real possability, if i loose my job ill go on the dole get my rent paid, get my medical card (as will my husband and child), get my fuel allowance oh and any and every social welfare payment that im entitled to. Why would you think that i couldn't loose my job please explain that to me might save a few of the sleepless nights i have been having.

ok, maybe youre not following the news but companies are closing down left right and centre daily in the private sector, oooohhhh boo hooo, you might lose your job, join the rest of us, youve a safer job, quit the moaning and the "sleepless nights", WTF do you think we've had in the private sector for over a year. Talk about unrealistic.

Idbatterim

look the bottom line is that the current do nothing apporach by the government is making things worse! everyone is just hoarding cash and the Private Sector has effectively shut up and will do so until some confidence in proceedings is restored! Given the huge savings that have to found, its ridiculous to rule out any area for cuts! The biggest area to target though has to be the PS! I wonder how much across the board cuts of 10% in social welfare, a 10% cut in minimum wage, bring all workers into the tax net even at say 5%, the fact that 40% dont pay tax at all is unbelievable. Implement cuts in the Ps as has been said, I think its fair to say its at the higher end where the ludicrous pay and perks are most blatant. So its probably a bit much to rule out anyone under say 35,000 p.a for pay cuts, maybe shave 5% off them. Then up to 20% for the highest paid. Lower Vat, get rid of the Travel tax, scrap stamp duty, im sure there are others, car scrappage schemes, and god knows what else!

southie

lmimmfn wrote: »

ok, maybe youre not following the news but companies are closing down left right and centre daily in the private sector, oooohhhh boo hooo, you might lose your job, join the rest of us, youve a safer job, quit the moaning and the "sleepless nights", WTF do you think we've had in the private sector for over a year. Talk about unrealistic.

think i know why you are unemployed might have something to do with you horrible attitude. where was i moaning or complaining? if you read you own post you might see that you were the one full of self pity. Take that huge chip off your shoulder be productive and make something out of it.

lmimmfn

southie wrote: »

think i know why you are unemployed might have something to do with you horrible attitude. where was i moaning or complaining? if you read you own post you might see that you were the one full of self pity. Take that huge chip off your shoulder be productive and make something out of it.

ok 2 things:
1. Im not unemployed, i work in the private sector, i work crazy hours but i absulutely love my job and my reward is seeing my work benefit the end product which i gain much satisfaction from.
2. My wife works in the PS( lowest income after 3 years ) so i know enough that i need to know about it.

I have a chip on my block because you guys are insanely unrealistic, wake up to the real world and cop the f*** on.

If i was forced to be recently unemployed your post would be an absolute disgrace.

jimoc

Why not just have a third round of benchmarking?

The unions accepted the recommendations from the first two rounds because it benefitted them all, this time, when the wages drop down to parity with the private sector and they complain, they will all be exposed for the money hungry grabbing bastiches that everyone knows they are.

lmimmfn

jimoc wrote: »

Why not just have a third round of benchmarking?

The unions accepted the recommendations from the first two rounds because it benefitted them all, this time, when the wages drop down to parity with the private sector and they complain, they will all be exposed for the money hungry grabbing bastiches that everyone knows they are.

exactly benchmarking is only worthwhile when everythings rosy in the garden.