Is Chad Ochocinco/Johnson a Hall of Famer?

ReacherCreature

On Sunday night I was watching the buildup to the Bengals - Ravens game and they showed a clip of Johnson with the HOF jacket on the sideline.

When they went back to the studio Nick Halling and Johnnie Mitchell both agreed that he's a Hall of Famer. They didn't even discuss it, just said it.

Quick run over of Ochocinco/Johnson's stats:

636 receptions, 9257 yards and 56 touchdowns.
5 Pro Bowls, 2 time All-Pro.
More at http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnCh01.htm

It's probably early yet as he's been drafted in 2001 but I'm not sure on the issue, just wondering what you guys' opinions are?

mikemac

I don't think so.

I do like the guy, he's in the elite of WR in the NFL.
But for now I say no.
Now if the Bengals reach the AFC Championship I'll be revisting this thread.

Dodge

In fairness I think Halling said something along the lines of "He has the talent to get to HOF"

Art Monk only got into the HOF tis yar, and Chad hasn't had anywhere near the accomplishments of him. He'll need a strong latter half of his career IMO

ReacherCreature

Dodge wrote: »

In fairness I think Halling said something along the lines of "He has the talent to get to HOF"

Apologies if so. I just got the idea they said yes straight away.

Hazys

No...what has he really acomplised? How many superbowls has he won? How many playoffs games has he won? Feck how many winning seasons has he been involved in? How many memorable single game achievements does he have?

Chad OchoCinco has been somewhat consistently been in the top5 Wrs in the league each year but in 5 years after he has retired who will remember him, really? He'll still be clamouring for our attention after he retires but we wont remember him for a glorious football career. Good career but certainly not close to great.

Only 7 get in each year so when he retires i think ull have 7 more worthy players retiring the same year not to mention the people who have missed out in the years previous.

davyjose

Hazys wrote: »

Only 7 get in each year so when he retires i think ull have 7 more worthy players retiring the same year not to mention the people who have missed out in the years previous.

7 a year is too many too IMO. That's 70 in a decade. The fact is, there aren't enough people to the level of Brady, Favre, Manning, LT, etc. To warrant 7 a year.

Maybe I'm being mean, but when i see the other 6 inductees beside Favre, I'll be thinking "Ok, so they're basically all getting the same distinction ... why? He's Brett Favre, they're just some guys who had a productive career."

Dodge

The hall of fame is for all NFL personnel, including pre superbowl era players and coaches/administrators etc. So there's still a huge backlog

Also, most of us ere don't really understand the nuances involved in what makes the difference between a brilliant right tackle, and a hall of fame right tackle. They're as worthy as QBs or RBs

tallaghtoutlaws

Dodge wrote: »

The hall of fame is for all NFL personnel, including pre superbowl era players and coaches/administrators etc. So there's still a huge backlog

Also, most of us ere don't really understand the nuances involved in what makes the difference between a brilliant right tackle, and a hall of fame right tackle. They're as worthy as QBs or RBs

Some many things factor in between a brilliant Tackle and Hall of Fame Tackle. I could talk for ages on this subject:D but..

To weed out the difference you got to look at the linemens quickness, strength, self-confidence his explosiveness, his general technique and his ability to read any given D-lineman. You also got to factor in the blocks that generally go unnoticed by the regular joe who is watching the play move forward. And they you have those key blocks.

In the last 13 years there has been 7 Olinemen inducted. Check out this article good read.

7 offensive linemen have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. By comparison, in the same time period a total of only 22 offensive skill players (8-WR, 7-QB, 4-RB, 3-TE) have been selected.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/212798-the-10-best-offensive-linemen-not-in-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame/page/2#page/1

themont85

Hazys wrote: »

No...what has he really acomplised? How many superbowls has he won? How many playoffs games has he won? Feck how many winning seasons has he been involved in? How many memorable single game achievements does he have?

Chad OchoCinco has been somewhat consistently been in the top5 Wrs in the league each year but in 5 years after he has retired who will remember him, really? He'll still be clamouring for our attention after he retires but we wont remember him for a glorious football career. Good career but certainly not close to great.

Only 7 get in each year so when he retires i think ull have 7 more worthy players retiring the same year not to mention the people who have missed out in the years previous.

How many did Barry Sanders win with the Lions in his time? I'm not saying he is anywhere near the guy but the point still stands. The HoF is about individual achievments firstly, otherwise we'd get plenty more guys from dynasty teams in there. Rings help to smooth over cracks in a resumé but aren't the b all and end all.

The point about Ochocinco is that he hasn't really been that consistant. In the last two years especially last he was nowhere near elite, before that he was superb granted. This year he has copped on and if he has several more good years he has a chance.

Chucky the tree

I agree with themont85 about how superbowls or play-offs shouldn't really count. I mean Andre Johnson hasn't made a play-off but he HOF bound if he keeps going at the rate he has been. Chad isn't far off, how many WR's have had 6 consecteutive 1,000+yard years? His career average is 14.9 per catch which is extremely impressive. If he can keep trucking for another few years he might make it. In saying that I think just for being a legend he should be in the HOF.

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I agree with themont85 about how superbowls or play-offs shouldn't really count. I mean Andre Johnson hasn't made a play-off but he HOF bound if he keeps going at the rate he has been. Chad isn't far off, how many WR's have had 6 consecteutive 1,000+yard years? His career average is 14.9 per catch which is extremely impressive. If he can keep trucking for another few years he might make it. In saying that I think just for being a legend he should be in the HOF.

Im going to have to get his autobiography after Rick Reily's ESPN review;

2. His seamless transitions. For instance, in a particularly tricky passage about what he'd be like if he had a show in Las Vegas (Mr. Ochocinco opines that he'd be bigger than "Penn & Teller and Céline Dion and Siegfried & Roy" combined), he writes, "Damn, I digress a lot." And then we are whisked on our way.

he calls Lewis and other coaches at 3 a.m. to discuss game strategy, civilities be damned. "Their wives might not like it, but I don't care. They got to deal with that, not me.

davyjose

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Some many things factor in between a brilliant Tackle and Hall of Fame Tackle. I could talk for ages on this subject:D but..

To weed out the difference you got to look at the linemens quickness, strength, self-confidence his explosiveness, his general technique and his ability to read any given D-lineman. You also got to factor in the blocks that generally go unnoticed by the regular joe who is watching the play move forward. And they you have those key blocks.

In the last 13 years there has been 7 Olinemen inducted. Check out this article good read.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/212798-the-10-best-offensive-linemen-not-in-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame/page/2#page/1

Lets be honest though, how many OT's have been league SB MVP? That kinda proves that there's very little a Tackle can do to set himself apart from the rest of the field.

Maybe it's harsh, but can you really tell me there's an equivalent OT to manning or brady out there?

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

Im going to have to get his autobiography after Rick Reily's ESPN review;

wow, never knew he had a book. It looks epic!

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

Lets be honest though, how many OT's have been league SB MVP? That kinda proves that there's very little a Tackle can do to set himself apart from the rest of the field.

Maybe it's harsh, but can you really tell me there's an equivalent OT to manning or brady out there?

Put it this way as a QB having 5 quality men in front of you get you those rings and gives you those yards.

Without linemen you dont have the Tom Bradys and Peyton Mannings of this world making huge impacts. Sure a tackle or guard or centre are not going to take the limelight in any playoff or bowl but they put in the rugged work while the skilled guys shine.

You know what as a linemen I have a very good appreciation for the men in the trenches but Im not going to enter into a debate with you to compare linemen against QBs like manning a Brady because there is no way to compare them. Totally different aspects of the game and 1 needs the other simple as. It unfair to say there are no linemen on the same calibre as Manning and Brady simple as.

But taking these guy are elite in their position, guys like Anthony Munoz, Art Shell, Dan Dierdoff, Jackie Slater, Larry Allen, Jim Otto, Dwight Stephenson I could go on.

As for the MVP thing especially in bowls they are always going to give to the skilled positions.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

wow, never knew he had a book. It looks epic!

Im buying this for the funny factor whether he ever makes the HOF dude will be remembered for how funny he was in the NFL. If nothing else he is the class clown.

UhOh

I love OchoCinco but he's not a HOFer. If they had a Hall of Very Good players he'd make it. It probably hasnt helped him being with the Bengals though. He'd no doubt have a better shot had he played for a franchise thats been more competitve in the last 10 years

Comparing Barry Sanders or Andre Johnson isn't fair either. A choosen few are exceptionally gifted & can merit the HOF without much playoff success. Others including Ocho do need post season heroics to tip them over the edge. How many of the 70s Steelers would never have made the HOF had they only won one Super Bowl in the decade?? Likewise how many more Raiders would be there had they won 3 or 4 Super Bowls int he 70s?

frostie500

davyjose wrote: »

7 a year is too many too IMO. That's 70 in a decade. The fact is, there aren't enough people to the level of Brady, Favre, Manning, LT, etc. To warrant 7 a year.

Are the rules for induction not that there are five 'current' players and two historical players for each year. The historical players are retired for over 20 years or something so there is enough players to be included from the backlog of retirees. The class of any given year isn't about inducting five first ballot players

evil_seed

He is not a potential H.O.F. This guy is a good receiver. There are only gonna be a handful of players from this era going to Canton and Esteban ain't one of these. This is a guy that will be remembered more for his his gold fronts, mowawks and TD celebrations than anything else. Sounds like I'm not a fan but I am. He's a funny guy and the game needs guys like him, but he's not a H.O.F'er

The Munky

The short answer is No!
He isn't.,....,.,.,.,.,

He isn't even a HOF entertainer - child please

Si Conando

Considering there are only 13 receivers in the hall of fame, i cant see him making the hall of fame. If you consider that, of the receivers who are likely to retire over the next 7 or 8 years, only 5 or 6 at most are likely to be inducted.

He isn't getting in ahead of Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, TO, Randy Moss, Torry Holt. He is unlikely to pass any of these in receiving yards, or TD catches. All of them have been to superbowls, with 3 of them having rings. I could well be forgetting someone also.

He has been a very good receiver and more importantly, imo, as entertaining a player as has ever played. If he happens to win a superbowl, and plays at an elite level for the next 5 years his chances would be pretty good i would imagine, but that is easier said than done.

Karlusss

Ocho Cinco isn't a hall of fame receiver yet, plainly. You can say playoff wins and rings don't count, but unless your stats are actually ridiculous, you do need those types of things on your CV. When we were talking about Warner during the SB last year everyone agreed that three Superbowls and one ring were part of what was buying him a place in Canton.

Because Chad has bad sides too. He has last season, when he didn't produce at all, sulked the whole year and eventually admitted that he didn't prepare properly physically for the season.

He's also going to retire into a queue of HOF contender receivers that includes Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Torry Holt among others, and Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson won't be too far behind. What makes him an all-time great, in that company?

Bring me a ring, ideally, but at least two more big seasons, and then I'll at least start consider it.

davyjose

Karlusss wrote: »

Ocho Cinco isn't a hall of fame receiver yet, plainly. You can say playoff wins and rings don't count, but unless your stats are actually ridiculous, you do need those types of things on your CV. When we were talking about Warner during the SB last year everyone agreed that three Superbowls and one ring were part of what was buying him a place in Canton.

And Warner has the impressive stats too - 50 x 300 yard games and the 3rd highest career QB rating in history (ping-ponging between 2nd with Manning over the last 2 seasons).

And there's STILL a question mark over him :eek:

frostie500

I always wonder do Warner's stats and play from Arena League and NFL Europe count for anything in the hall vote, the hall is officially called the Pro Football Hall of Fame so should really take those into account.....;)

themont85

I never said playoff/SB's don't count("they can help paper over cracks in ones resumé) just that the person who said that "what has he accomplished" was way off the mark and that the likes of Sanders are proof of that. Johnson will if he keeps going at his rate(the rate between 02 and 07 which he is back to thus far this year) trump the likes of Michael Irvin for yards ,TDs and averages (I know his career was curtailed but he should still beat him beat him inside his first 12 years). Of course this is all conjecture and he could be injured or go back to 2008 form.

heyjude

The NFL rules have changed over recent years to encourage high octane passing offence, so whereas in the past a 1000yd receiver was something pretty special, it has got to the stage where most teams have one now and Arizona had 3 such wide receivers last season, so Chad's stats have to improve to really stand a chance. The one big factor that will probably kill his Hall of Fame chances, is as mentioned already, the competition he'll face with the likes of Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, TO etc all becoming eligible around the same time and the likes of Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald soon after, in that company Chad wouldn't be in the top three IMO.

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Quick run over of Ochocinco/Johnson's stats:

636 receptions, 9257 yards and 56 touchdowns.
5 Pro Bowls, 2 time All-Pro.
More at http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnCh01.htm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I agree with themont85 about how superbowls or play-offs shouldn't really count. I mean Andre Johnson hasn't made a play-off but he HOF bound if he keeps going at the rate he has been. Chad isn't far off, how many WR's have had 6 consecteutive 1,000+yard years? His career average is 14.9 per catch which is extremely impressive. If he can keep trucking for another few years he might make it. In saying that I think just for being a legend he should be in the HOF.

Compare Johnson stats with a recently eligible player who isn't regarded as a certainty for HOF entry: Tim Bown had 1094 career receptions, 14,934yds receiving, 105 career TDs(100 of these receiving), made 9 Pro Bowls and was included in the NFLs 1990s All Decade Team. His career also included 9 consecutive 1,000+yard seasons(followed by a 930yd season). This was achieved when the rules against pass interference and illegal contact were less severe and when QBs were subject to far more contact than today. Cris Carter with nearly 14,000 yds and 130 TD receptions also hasn't made the Hall of Fame yet either.

Lothaar

The reason O-Linemen never get MVP awards, and rarely make it to the HOF, is that of all positions the O-Line is the one where individual effort is noticed the least. An outstanding OL needs the other four guys to play well for the line to succeed. With a bad supporting cast, an outstanding OL will never be noticed, as it takes detailled film study - and an in-depth knowledge of the offensive system - to determine exactly how good he is. Therefore, only his coaches will notice.

Even when they have a good O-Line around them... that dilutes the value of the individual effort, as it takes all five guys to make things happen. So, the outstanding OL is seen as a great player, but part of a great unit.

It's next to impossible to get spotted as a stand-out when you consider all that.

Back on topic... I agree with Halling - Ocho has the talent to get into the HOF. But he hasn't done enough yet. He's got a few more years to go, though.

eagle eye

heyjude wrote: »

Compare Johnson stats with a recently eligible player who isn't regarded as a certainty for Pro Bowl entry: Tim Bown had 1094 career receptions, 14,934yds receiving, 105 career TDs(100 of these receiving), made 9 Pro Bowls and was included in the NFLs 1990s All Decade Team. His career also included 9 consecutive 1,000+yard seasons(followed by a 930yd season). The was achieved when the rules of pass interference and illegal contact were less severe and when QBs enjoyed far less contact than today. Cris Carter with nearly 14,000 yds and 130 TD receptions also hasn't made the Hall of Fame yet either.

For me Tim Brown should be a first ballot HOF. He might not be but he has to be a certainty to make it. He was just awesome.
Cris Carter will make it too, another outstanding player but Brown for me is one of the all time greats. I'd have him on my all time offense along with Rice.

Chucky the tree

heyjude wrote: »

The NFL rules have changed over recent years to encourage high octane passing offence, so whereas in the past a 1000yd receiver was something pretty special, it has got to the stage where most teams have one now and Arizona had 3 such wide receivers last season, so Chad's stats have to improve to really stand a chance. The one big factor that will probably kill his Hall of Fame chances, is as mentioned already, the competition he'll face with the likes of Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, TO etc all becoming eligible around the same time and the likes of Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald soon after, in that company Chad wouldn't be in the top three IMO.

Compare Johnson stats with a recently eligible player who isn't regarded as a certainty for Pro Bowl entry: Tim Bown had 1094 career receptions, 14,934yds receiving, 105 career TDs(100 of these receiving), made 9 Pro Bowls and was included in the NFLs 1990s All Decade Team. His career also included 9 consecutive 1,000+yard seasons(followed by a 930yd season). The was achieved when the rules of pass interference and illegal contact were less severe and when QBs enjoyed far less contact than today. Cris Carter with nearly 14,000 yds and 130 TD receptions also hasn't made the Hall of Fame yet either.

Tim Brown is nailed on for the HOF. While 1,000yrd WR might not be that big Chads is pretty much top 5 each year. His receptions to TD ratio is pretty good. 636 receptions with 56 TD compared to AJ who has 514 receptions with just 37 TD's, he's basically level with Issac Bruce and tory Holt. The only definite HOF I'd have out of this class are TO and Randy Moss.

Dodge

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The only definite HOF I'd have out of this class are TO and Randy Moss.

I wouldn't be certain about any of them.

Si Conando

Dodge wrote: »

I wouldn't be certain about any of them.

Ah come on, TO and Moss are dead certs. Maybe they wont go first ballot, seeing as how tim brown and cris carter didnt go first ballot, but they will definitely get in at some stage. Do you think they will just ignore the whole decade? By the time TO and Moss finish there careers, they will more than likely be 2nd and 3rd in yards and TDs. That would deserve 1st ballot induction imo.

Dodge

Si Conando wrote: »

Ah come on, TO and Moss are dead certs. Maybe they wont go first ballot, seeing as how tim brown and cris carter didnt go first ballot, but they will definitely get in at some stage. Do you think they will just ignore the whole decade? By the time TO and Moss finish there careers, they will more than likely be 2nd and 3rd in yards and TDs. That would deserve 1st ballot induction imo.

I didn't say they wouldn't get in. I said I couldn't be certain about any of them. Everyone knows that personality and superbowl wins come into the reckoning (whether they should or shouldn't is immaterial) and both players have had problems with teams, and neither has any rings. They're absolutely going to be candidates, as are players like Torry Holt

For the recrd here are the WRs currently in the HOF

Lance Alworth 1962-1972
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-1978
Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch (also HB) 1946-1956
Steve Largent 1976-1989
James Lofton 1978-1993
Don Maynard 1958, 1960-1973
Tommy McDonald 1957-1968
Paul Warfield 1964-1977
Charlie Joiner 1969-1986
Art Monk 1980-1995
Raymond Berry 1955-1967
Tom Fears 1948-1956
John Stallworth 1974-1987
Lynn Swann 1974-1982
Bobby Mitchell (also HB) 1958-1968
Pete Pihos 1947-1955
Charley Taylor (also HB) 1964-1975, 1977
Dante Lavelli 1946-1956
Bob Hayes 1965-1975
Michael Irvin 1988-1999

There are very, very few from each decade and Steve Largent is the only WR in modern times witout a ring