Gormley on Prime Time

Liam Byrne

Just watching Gormley on Prime Time try to avoid the obvious questions!

Miriam quoted a statement by him about never putting something into a document unless it's costed, but then he repeatedly refused to mention a cost, and says "we can't possibly know what it costs".....

Obviously zero lessons learned from today's events in the Dail......promise whatever, feck the cost.......

Oh - and don't forget the other three : obfuscate every answer, make the question seem unreasonable and defer the consequences of promises that keep you in power.

imme

An Taoiseach said today that the 'new' programme for government will cost the same as the 'old' one. It's not a concrete definitive plan, so is not costed as such.

The_Conductor

I'm guessing that hes refusing to say what 500 new teachers are going to cost? I can't wait for the next election to kick these idiots out- they are promising all sorts of wonderful goodies- but refusing to cost them...... A free water allocation- above which people would pay- lets guess he hasn't figured how to meter it, unless he hits everyone with yet another new tax?

Liam Byrne

imme wrote: »

An Taoiseach said today that the 'new' programme for government will cost the same as the 'old' one. It's not a concrete definitive plan, so is not costed as such.

I'm not well versed in political spin and bull****; what precisely is the difference between a programme and a plan ?

And surely - if you're going to say to your party "here's what we're going to do", and get a commitment to not pull the plug on the biggest disasters in history as a result - then surely it should have been a lot more than a vague list of possibilities that might or might not happen depending on their as yet undefined cost ?

Lame Lantern

Further evidence that the new program for government was contrived under the misguided view that they would be able to run on these meagre gains in 2012.

imme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm not well versed in political spin and bull****; what precisely is the difference between a programme and a plan ?

And surely - if you're going to say to your party "here's what we're going to do", and get a commitment to not pull the plug on the biggest disasters in history as a result - then surely it should have been a lot more than a vague list of possibilities that might or might not happen depending on their as yet undefined cost ?

the Greens got their 500 teachers, what ever that means so they seem happy, €54bn for NAMA versus 500 teachers, is that a good deal.
Programmes for Government are verbal expressions of wishes that they want to fulfill, 2,000 extra Gardai anyone?

Liam Byrne

imme wrote: »

the Greens got their 500 teachers, what ever that means so they seem happy, €54bn for NAMA versus 500 teachers, is that a good deal.
Programmes for Government are verbal expressions of wishes that they want to fulfill, 2,000 extra Gardai anyone?

And that's what we, the Irish electorate need to start shooting holes through!

A "programme" or "promise" is precisely that; a PROMISE. And it should be checked, and if not delivered, the scum who lied about it should be out on their ear!

I remember when a certain John O'Donoghue promised "zero tolerance", and it's SO ironic that the one and only implementation of it ended up in his disgrace; and yet he's still a TD !!!!

Ireland's "democracy" is a joke!

johnnyskeleton

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm guessing that hes refusing to say what 500 new teachers are going to cost? I can't wait for the next election to kick these idiots out- they are promising all sorts of wonderful goodies- but refusing to cost them...... A free water allocation- above which people would pay- lets guess he hasn't figured how to meter it, unless he hits everyone with yet another new tax?

Hasn't the government already fired 1,000 teachers so far this year? So really, the programme for government is just saying that it will re-hire half of them. Of course, the substantial early retirement payments made is just a minor issue.

Seth Brundle

Is the cap on public service recruitment gone then?

Liam Byrne

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Hasn't the government already fired 1,000 teachers so far this year? So really, the programme for government is just saying that it will re-hire half of them. Of course, the substantial early retirement payments made is just a minor issue.

So it's a partial u-turn disguised as a new programme ???? Sheesh! I know I shouldn't be surprised, but DUH!

imme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And that's what we, the Irish electorate need to start shooting holes through!

A "programme" or "promise" is precisely that; a PROMISE. And it should be checked, and if not delivered, the scum who lied about it should be out on their ear!

I remember when a certain John O'Donoghue promised "zero tolerance", and it's SO ironic that the one and only implementation of it ended up in his disgrace; and yet he's still a TD !!!!

Ireland's "democracy" is a joke!

you'll have to become a pamphleteer.;) I also remember Mr. Zero Tolerance back in the day when Fianna Fail were the taxi drivers friend, how times have changed.

Liam Byrne

imme wrote: »

you'll have to become a pamphleteer.;)

Cheers, but pamphlets are a waste of valuable green resources, and everyone bins them anyway because there's nothing worthwhile on them!

imme wrote: »

I also remember Mr. Zero Tolerance back in the day when Fianna Fail were the taxi drivers friend, how times have changed.

TBH, I'd have fired him after reneging on that promise alone....

bauderline

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm guessing that hes refusing to say what 500 new teachers are going to cost? I can't wait for the next election to kick these idiots out- they are promising all sorts of wonderful goodies- but refusing to cost them...... A free water allocation- above which people would pay- lets guess he hasn't figured how to meter it, unless he hits everyone with yet another new tax?

In order to meter it they would have to install a meter on every water supply in the country.... no small job ... and not a viable option any time soon.

I guess we are going to get hit with a flat rate charge...

Zambia

If anything water charges should be introduced at once. They should have been brought in ages ago even before the Bin Tax. Water is a cost and I really dont see how when you think about it it should be free.

Sure in Ireland the stuff is everywhere but the cost of its movement is a cost. metering should also be introduced. The logical way is to introduce a flat fee and if you install a meter at your expense then you get switched to a Metered charge.

I know I use to pay for the entire state though income tax and stamp duty but we can all see how that ended up. I would rather a lower income tax and a lot more accountability.
Example Bin Tax - I recycle more I pay less
Water Tax - I use less I pay less
Council Rates - Smaller House/Land less tax

But any additional cost would mean the party concerned would never get in or re-elected so it would not happen. I have also not once seen the carrot and stick approach used as in
If we bring in water charges we reduce income tax slightly.

Its always been the stick or stick approach. The country will collapse if you dont let us beat you with this stick for a bit.

Arnold Layne

imme wrote: »

the Greens got their 500 teachers, what ever that means so they seem happy, €54bn for NAMA versus 500 teachers, is that a good deal.
Programmes for Government are verbal expressions of wishes that they want to fulfill, 2,000 extra Gardai anyone?

How many teechers will be retiring over the next 3 years. I bet its close to 500. The Greens got nothing but hoodwinked. I wouldn't be surprised if Gormley & Ryan were aware of this before selling it to their party.

imme

Arnold Layne wrote: »

How many teechers will be retiring over the next 3 years. I bet its close to 500. The Greens got nothing but hoodwinked. I wouldn't be surprised if Gormley & Ryan were aware of this before selling it to their party.

and don't forget the 500 promised teachers is over 5 years.

Arnold Layne

imme wrote: »

and don't forget the 500 promised teachers is over 5 years.

Is it not 3 years?

imme

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Is it not 3 years?

the coalition can run until 2012, but the teacher 'promise' is over a 5 year period I think. I could be wrong, it's happened before, believe it or not.:rolleyes:

brianthebard

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm guessing that hes refusing to say what 500 new teachers are going to cost? I can't wait for the next election to kick these idiots out- they are promising all sorts of wonderful goodies- but refusing to cost them...... A free water allocation- above which people would pay- lets guess he hasn't figured how to meter it, unless he hits everyone with yet another new tax?

There's already been a metering system set up in sligo for farms (might have been extended to rest of the country by now, think it was run there first), its been set up terribly. Some people who don't farm have been metered, others have had the meter attached on the wrong side of the water pipe, reversed, leaking, etc,etc. Terrible system.

Darsad

Thanks to the snots / Yellows it looks like the only way this gov wont make the full term is if the people take to the streets and force them out !
I think the public are getting very close to acting like the French , the budget just may be the tipping point .

Darragh29

imme wrote: »

and don't forget the 500 promised teachers is over 5 years.

500 teachers, what will that do to improve the economic situation??? These guys are utterly and hopelessly DELUDED. What we need now is:

(1) Job creation, job creation and more job creation...

(2) Job creation, job creation and more job creation...

(3) Job creation, job creation and more job creation...

(4) As for throwing more money into education, the educational system needs to be taken apart and put back together again before any more money is pumped into it, if the standard of education that I recall is anything to go by.

It's 2009 and a teacher now is telling the country that they can't work one evening a year to meet with parents for parent-teacher meetings, instead a parent has to take a day off work to meet the teacher on their terms during their working day. Despite having probably close to half the working year off on holidays, they poke parents in the eye and tell them they will not change, they will not reform, its more of the same ineffciencies, protecting useless teachers, more of the same auld codding that has been going on for years.

The only money that should be put into education at the moment I suggest is for capital assets, that way you can at least be sure you are getting something for taxpayers money. Paying more disillusioned teachers who are effectively on a work to rule is more criminal waste of taxpayers money.

Lame Lantern

On water charges, the introduction of any further taxes on households in this economic climate is foolish. Furthermore, if the intention here is truly to make the public more responsible in their water usage and not to expand the scope of taxation I'd like to see it offset by reductions in other taxes that affect lower income households.

GSF

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Just watching Gormley on Prime Time try to avoid the obvious questions!

Miriam quoted a statement by him about never putting something into a document unless it's costed, but then he repeatedly refused to mention a cost, and says "we can't possibly know what it costs".....

Obviously zero lessons learned from today's events in the Dail......promise whatever, feck the cost.......

Oh - and don't forget the other three : obfuscate every answer, make the question seem unreasonable and defer the consequences of promises that keep you in power.

I would have thought its obvious that the extra spending to placate the greens will have to made up with extra cuts elsewhere or higher taxes

sceptre

Darsad wrote: »

Thanks to the snots / Yellows it looks like the only way this gov wont make the full term is if the people take to the streets and force them out !
I think the public are getting very close to acting like the French , the budget just may be the tipping point .

Well, the cuisine might get better.

Are the snots / Yellows the Green party then? I'm not being smart, actually perhaps I'm being decidedly dumb unintentionally. I got the vegetables thing someone put in the earlier thread (the equals sign was the giveaway), though I'd already labelled a few other parties with that.

cici81

Darragh29 wrote: »

"It's 2009 and a teacher now is telling the country that they can't work one evening a year to meet with parents for parent-teacher meetings, instead a parent has to take a day off work to meet the teacher on their terms during their working day. Despite having probably close to half the working year off on holidays, they poke parents in the eye and tell them they will not change, they will not reform, its more of the same ineffciencies, protecting useless teachers, more of the same auld codding that has been going on for years."


As a teacher, I feel it's important to point out that this isn't true. According to my INTO rep, who I spoke to yesterday, the parent teacher meetings are going to continue to take place after school. Teachers appreciate that there is no point punishing parents. In our school we actually spend two evenings on PT meetings, so as to give all parents enough time instead of rushing through them. Most teachers aren't "working to rule", at the end of the day most of us are conscientious, hard workers, and we will continue to do whatever we need to do to give the children in our classes the best education possible in the present circumstances. Most teachers aren't useless, and trust me, I'd love to see the ones who are useless gone as much as you would!

ShooterSF

Zambia232 wrote: »

If anything water charges should be introduced at once. They should have been brought in ages ago even before the Bin Tax. Water is a cost and I really dont see how when you think about it it should be free.

Sure in Ireland the stuff is everywhere but the cost of its movement is a cost. metering should also be introduced. The logical way is to introduce a flat fee and if you install a meter at your expense then you get switched to a Metered charge.

I know I use to pay for the entire state though income tax and stamp duty but we can all see how that ended up. I would rather a lower income tax and a lot more accountability.
Example Bin Tax - I recycle more I pay less
Water Tax - I use less I pay less
Council Rates - Smaller House/Land less tax

But any additional cost would mean the party concerned would never get in or re-elected so it would not happen. I have also not once seen the carrot and stick approach used as in
If we bring in water charges we reduce income tax slightly.

Its always been the stick or stick approach. The country will collapse if you dont let us beat you with this stick for a bit.

So lower my income tax and then re-introduce it as a flat fee water tax? How does that change anything? I assume they would lower income tax as it is already paying for the water treatment at the moment.

dresden8

Zambia232 wrote: »

Example Bin Tax - I recycle more I pay less

We had that one. Throw out less, pay less.

Only then they discovered that people were not throwing out enough, so they kept the charge for each bin and then introduced a flat charge also.

Been there, done that.

Liam Byrne

dresden8 wrote: »

We had that one. Throw out less, pay less.

Only then they discovered that people were not throwing out enough, so they kept the charge for each bin and then introduced a flat charge also.

Been there, done that.

That's the biggest problem that I see with the Greens; we pay VRT (a tax that is nowhere else in Europe) and they want to then add a carbon tax!

How can they justify "charging people who make the wrong 'choice'" without PROVIDING THE F**KING CHOICE ???

Give us an ALTERNATIVE - FIRST!!!!!! HUGE areas of the country have no facilities, and no public transport (and before anyone suggests there's a "lifestyle choice" to live there, lost of people could only afford houses "out there", because of other Government policies)

My sister's schoolbus charge has gone up by 150% - that's gone up by, not "to", so that's 250% of last year's amount - for the coming year! With 3 kids, how is she supposed to NOT use the car ??

We stop dumping rubbish "indisciminately" and start recycling, and when everyone starts recycling they charge us for BOTH!

We pay stamp duty on houses, and when everyone everyone has bought the houses they scrap that and propose charging the same people a property tax, water rates and god-knows-what else!

Screw the same people over, and over, and over.....it's sickening!

I worked out today that if they gave me John O'Donoghue's expenses, I'd survive for 25 years or so!!! :mad:

Dannyboy83

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the biggest problem that I see with the Greens; we pay VRT (a tax that is nowhere else in Europe) and they want to then add a carbon tax!

How can they justify "charging people who make the wrong 'choice'" without PROVIDING THE F**KING CHOICE ???

Give us an ALTERNATIVE - FIRST!!!!!! HUGE areas of the country have no facilities, and no public transport (and before anyone suggests there's a "lifestyle choice" to live there, lost of people could only afford houses "out there", because of other Government policies)

My sister's schoolbus charge has gone up by 150% - that's gone up by, not "to", so that's 250% of last year's amount - for the coming year! With 3 kids, how is she supposed to NOT use the car ??

We stop dumping rubbish "indisciminately" and start recycling, and when everyone starts recycling they charge us for BOTH!

We pay stamp duty on houses, and when everyone everyone has bought the houses they scrap that and propose charging the same people a property tax, water rates and god-knows-what else!

Screw the same people over, and over, and over.....it's sickening!

I worked out today that if they gave me John O'Donoghue's expenses, I'd survive for 25 years or so!!! :mad:

Are you sure thats correct!?

My understanding is that VRT should disappear if Carbon tax is to be introduced!!

Otherwise, its triple taxation. If the taxi & truck drivers are already striking..................

Liam Byrne

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My understanding is that VRT should disappear if Carbon tax is to be introduced!!

Otherwise, its triple taxation. If the taxi & truck drivers are already striking..................

VRT might disappear, meaning that if and when you buy a new car, you don't pay the VRT, and from then on pay the carbon tax.

Fair and equitable, on the face of it; you can "own" a car that you use 5 times a year.

HOWEVER anyone keeping their current car because they can't afford to upgrade will ALREADY HAVE PAID THE VRT.

That's my point. Those without extra money will not get any benefit from this!

Seth Brundle

More Gormley FFism
www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/oct/18/gormley-could-have-taken-train-in-wales/