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HD57*0: Oh Dear...
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14-10-2009 3:49am#1Not looking good. The HD5750 costs about as much as a HD4870 1GB, which is rather unfortunate as its about as powerful as an €80 HD4850
It may be faster, but its only got 9 SIMD clusters instead of the HD4850's 10 
The HD5770... oh dear It has the computational horsepower of the HD4890, costs about as much as a HD4890... the fact it's nowhere near as powerful 90% of the time (and just as fast for the remainder) strongly suggests that what I was afraid of has come to pass - AMD got too greedy with the GDDR5 and have crippled the memory bus a power of 2 too far
Seriously... the old HD4850 has a 256bit bus. The HD4870 512MB has a 256bit bus with GDDR5 memory. And their replacements have 128bit buses not seen in a single card over €60... until now. Thanks a bunch AMD, and once you're done shooting yourself in the foot please make a proper mid-range card willya?! :mad:
I can't see these selling unless the prices are truly slashed to ribbons... 0
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Its a particularly nasty shock after the last gen where the HD4850 turned things upside down overnight, thrashing €300 8800GTXs while costing half as much... this time AMD has gotten greedy and nVidia will duly remind them of proper conduct
Problem is, the "sweet spot" AMD harps on about is going to be around the HD5830 point, yet AMD don't really want to make any as they're getting such good 40nm yields for the HD5870 they don't even want to push the HD5850 too hard. Silly AMD, you should have downclocked the HD5850 further instead of lasering it down to 18 SIMD clusters, and then stuck a slow 16-SIMD GPU on a 192-bit bus and 768MB slowish GDDR5 to make a cheap and well-positioned HD5830 for the "I want a 40nm HD4890+" crowd. That way you'd waste even less of the yield and make more use of the complete low-binned dies in slow 20-SIMD HD5850s! :P
Given the poor chance of a HD5830 due to good yields I would have hoped AMD could get a HD5790 out with a 160- or 192-bit bus, 640 or 768MB GDDR5 and 12 SIMD units, but I think the dies for the HD57*0 are 10-SIMD to begin with so there's no chance of that either. AMD have put themselves in an unenviable position this time around... 0 -
remember what Nvidia said a while back "DX11 won't sell new cards" well certainly dx11 cards won't sell when they're worse price/performance than current gen.
To be fair, nV only said that because they knew AMD were going to be a comfortable 1st with DX11 solutions
Ive been an nV user for the last few rigs, like them very much, but I am disappointed with the delays on Fermi.0 -
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You still tipsy LB? :P
I'm guessing this mess stems from TSMC's early issues with the 40nm process; AMD projected a shortfall on high-bin dies for the HD5870 and a surplus of units only good for some laser-based neutering fun, ergo HD5830/50. The complete opposite has now happened and AMD think all their Christmases have come at once...
... and totally missed the points their own marketing blurb spelled out to everyone; if AMD hold to the original price plans it ain't gonna sell the surplus HD5870s, but it will force everyone to go to nVidia to make up for the absence of HD5830s (or cheap HD5850s). Epic faceplant material there AMD... 0 -
The big question is now can Nvidia beat the 4890 on price/performance! With amd's new cards priced the way they are, i don't see the 4890 dropping in price anytime soon...
Not so hard for Nvidia, AMD have gone easy on them!
I'd say Nvidia were well worried about these cards coming out and maybe that's why their next gen cards are taking so long to come? They wanted to see AMD's first!
Either way Nvidia will surely be able to provide something better than what AMD is offering now. It's been such a long time (in terms of gpu time) since the 4890 and it and the 4870 still rule the budget world, Nvidia must have come up with something better!
and on the subject of faceplant0 -
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Not looking good. The HD5750 costs about as much as a HD4870 1GB, which is rather unfortunate as its about as powerful as an €80 HD4850 It may be faster, but its only got 9 SIMD clusters instead of the HD4850's 10 The HD5770... oh dear It has the computational horsepower of the HD4890, costs about as much as a HD4890... the fact it's nowhere near as powerful 90% of the time (and just as fast for the remainder) strongly suggests that what I was afraid of has come to pass - AMD got too greedy with the GDDR5 and have crippled the memory bus a power of 2 too far
Seriously... the old HD4850 has a 256bit bus. The HD4870 512MB has a 256bit bus with GDDR5 memory. And their replacements have 128bit buses not seen in a single card over €60... until now. Thanks a bunch AMD, and once you're done shooting yourself in the foot please make a proper mid-range card willya?! :mad:
I can't see these selling unless the prices are truly slashed to ribbons...
... I was going to buy a 5770 next month, then I read this :eek: I'm extremely surprised that AMD are following up such a wonderful line as the 4800 series with this 0 -
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I was going to pick up a gtx 295 until I was advised against it as they don't support dx11. The last time I could have considered myself up to date graphics cards were AGP and SATA came as an option on the more expensive mobos.
So do you reckon there will be dual gpu 5870s on the market after christmas?0 -
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Ok so I’ve been looking at the 5770 all day trying to figure out if it is worth getting or not compared to a 4870 (1GB) or a 4890 as they are all close enough to €150 give or take.
From what I can tell, the 5770 and the 4870 have similar performance with the 4870 rarely producing more than 15-20 fps better in a few games but in general it is closer*.
Now given that the tests at the moment are all based on the first driver for the 5770 whereas the 4870 is on a more stable driver, I am wondering will the difference in fps be made up with new drivers?
(As a matter of interest, does anyone have any idea with the fps improvements have been due to driver updates for the 4870/4890?)
Anyway, saw this thread earlier and became seriously concerned about the 128 bit bus until I read this:
http://hardocp.com/article/2009/10/12/amd_ati_radeon_hd_5770_5750_review/9
Now I am at a total loss again.
I realise hardocp are making an assumption that new DX11 games are going to be more CPU intensive, and that there are a few DX11 games coming in the next few months, but I wonder how fast DX11 will be accepted as the standard platform?
Overall, I am still left with the dilemma whether I would be better off getting a 4890until DX11 becomes popular and widely accepted or just get the 5770 now, hope new drivers will increase its performance for current games and be happy knowing I might get a few months extra out of the 5770 vs. the 4890, before I have to upgrade again...
*Every site seems to have massively different benchmarks between these 3 cards but this is the average difference I have seen, although one website claimed there was only a 1-2% difference in the performance between a 5770 and a 4870!0 -
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I'm not bothered by the fact that the HD5770 has a 128-bit bus, I'm bothered by the fact that the massive drop in memory bandwidth has crippled a HD4890-killer so badly it loses to a HD4870 at 1080p. And that's not the kind of problem you can fix with a driver update. Why on earth didn't they go for a 192-bit bus and 768MB GDDR5?! It would have given them a much stronger card than a 1GB-on-a-crippled-bus jobbie! You can already do that with a 1GB HD4850 and up the GPU clocks a bit!
Simple fact: the cards replace the HD4850 and HD4870 512MB respectively. They don't outperform them, they just add DX11 and drop the power consumption. Given that they're probably a lot cheaper to make (~50% less actual silicon on the die!) why the hell do they put on the price premium?! They're competing with their own products. And losing! :eek:0 -
Not looking good. The HD5750 costs about as much as a HD4870 1GB, which is rather unfortunate as its about as powerful as an €80 HD4850 It may be faster, but its only got 9 SIMD clusters instead of the HD4850's 10 The HD5770... oh dear It has the computational horsepower of the HD4890, costs about as much as a HD4890... the fact it's nowhere near as powerful 90% of the time (and just as fast for the remainder) strongly suggests that what I was afraid of has come to pass - AMD got too greedy with the GDDR5 and have crippled the memory bus a power of 2 too far
Seriously... the old HD4850 has a 256bit bus. The HD4870 512MB has a 256bit bus with GDDR5 memory. And their replacements have 128bit buses not seen in a single card over €60... until now. Thanks a bunch AMD, and once you're done shooting yourself in the foot please make a proper mid-range card willya?! :mad:
I can't see these selling unless the prices are truly slashed to ribbons...
Was it the number 5770 that got ya all excited?0 -
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Given that they're probably a lot cheaper to make (~50% less actual silicon on the die!) why the hell do they put on the price premium?! They're competing with their own products. And losing! :eek:
You've missed the nail with the hammer there. AMD has had to cut its margins from the start of the 3 series just to compete with NV and its variations of G80. They've dominated the sub €100 market, and had at least parity with the €100- €150 market as a result, but they haven't been making the same profit margin as NV, at least until the 285/295, where NV's die size caught up with them, and they couldn't lower prices.
AMD has small parts on a new process they get excellent yields from (thank you 4770), and they have clearly spec'd parts that could sell a lot cheaper than they actually do. This is because they have a golden 3-6 month window where NV's parts are out of date, not compatible with Win7, can't be made at a profit, and are beaten on both price and performance. They have simply upped their margins, make hay while the sun shines, and figure that DX11 (Windows 7 compatibilty sticker if nothing else) and eyefinity are features that balance out not increasing actual performance in the €100-150 segment.
They're probably right.0 -
But all they'll do is lose sales; nVidia pulled the exact same grift with Vista and DX10. Result? 18-month sales slump and nVidia grinning like a bunch of slack-jawed retards as they charge twice as much for GPUs arguably inferior to the previous 7-series and fail to realise that they still lose money as people simply stop buying. The insane prices simply curtailed any development or spending on the segment as the techies said "**** this" and embargoed the segment until AMD became competitve again and nVidia were finally forced to release the 8800GT at a far lower price than the infinitely inferior 8600GTS and €300+ 8800GTS 320MB.
AMD hasn't pushed their luck that far (unlike nVidia, who still cling to their Darwin Award for being the only OEM who successfully managed to reverse Moore's Law!
) but the same will inevitably happen again; a few loaded individuals will grab HD58** but the lower end of the market will be roundly ignored and vendors will continue to sell the popular old inventory. And when the supply of HD4890s run out? Pray AMD cops on and reduces the HD5850's RRP or get ready for a lean, lean winter 0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ora35AzLxt0
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