School portraits

smelltheglove

dazftw wrote: »

Thats understandable, just you said his wedding shots are not up to your standard. This to me is just plain arrogant and id like to compare.

I'm not trying to be arrogant, just truthful, I have seen ametuers here do better.

Dodgykeeper

smelltheglove wrote: »

I'm not trying to be arrogant, just truthful, I have seen ametuers here do better.

Come on then SmellyGlove show us this website! All who think she should thank this post!

DaireQuinlan

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

Come on then SmellyGlove show us this website! All who think she should thank this post!

I didn't care up until now, but Yeah

smelltheglove wrote: »

I'm not trying to be arrogant, just truthful, I have seen ametuers here do better.

And it's amateurs, not 'ametuers'. Generally when I'm being judgmental and self-righteous I try and check my spelling. I find it gels better with my imagined sense of superiority.

AnCatDubh

Back on topic folks please. The topic isn't the other photographers website or comparisons between the two.

The topic is would you pay €40 when you can do equally as good a job yourself.

STG's opinion of the photographers work was stated by means of context and background to the topic and it is reasonable (professional actually) to not provide a link. While the opinion has been stated it remains just that.

So, back to the topic....

Thank you.

smelltheglove

Thanks, what is it with band wagons around here lately, honetly not being arrogant its just not to my taste, as I am fully aware my work is not to other peoples taste. Nobody here have an opinion of someone elses work then no???? Sorry I must be completely out on my own here then.

Valentia

pullandbang wrote: »

€40 - sounds like a rip off. Mine was only 2/6 and 7/6 for an enlargement

You haven't changes a bit!!! Brilliant!

artyeva

apologies to the OP for what seems like a witch hunt.

HOWEVER...

i thought this thread was a p--- take tbh. if you're a photographer and already have the opinion that you can take better shots than this guy's website showcases then surely you've answered your own question??? :rolleyes:

if however your question was more along the lines of ''will my kid feel left out, will i regret singling them out in their class'' etc then my first thoughts were ''why isn't she posting this in a parenting forum''

or, if you're question was ''is €40 too much for a [in your opinion] low quality product'' then i think that's a question for you and your other half and your bank account.;)

Eirebear

To be honest, the only issue here is the fact that the photographer has asked for the money upfront.

If it was done the old way, where proof images were given to the parents who could then decide either to order prints, or send them back then STG would have no problems at all.
A) Her child wouldnt run the risk of feeling left out when the photographer doesnt take her picture with the group.
STG could then decide wether she wanted the pictures, or to take portraits of her child herself.

It seems to me that the Photographer in question is very much playing on the fact that parents wont want their child feeling left outand for me, STG had every right to go and do her research and decide before paying the money.
From there its up to STG to decide wether she felt that the effect on her child in school is a balance on her anger/annoyance at being manipulated by the photographer.

KarmaGarda

Slightly misleading poll subject! I would have voted yes only for I read first and spotted the "pay up front" bit. If you didn't have to pay up front it's a whole new ball game.

Edit: Misleading might be the wrong word... not worded exactly like the question I actually answered no to

smelltheglove

KarmaGarda wrote: »

Edit: Misleading might be the wrong word... not worded exactly like the question I actually answered no to

Lol, I just stated on the other thread that I may not go into detail enough, no the originaly post was to help me make my decision and see where others would stand in the same situation. Many here could do an equal job as a school photographer, I wanted to see if others would be of my thinking, I didnt see the point, my hubbie didnt want her left out.

The pay upfront thing wasnt too much of an issue to me to be honest, although I do think it is a cheap way of getting the business there are a fair few doing it now anyway. Thankfully my daughter wasnt left out, I went up to collect her from school and ask my group of mammies did they send theirs in for the pic and each of them replied no, if they wanted a pic theyd be asking me to take it instead.

stcstc

although i disagree with the thing of charging up front fully for the product

I think a deposit would be normal business practice in custom made things


for example with a large ammount of my customers i ask for 50% up front before starting on most jobs

this is quite normal in all the business areas i have been involved in

smelltheglove

I'm on middle ground on this Steve, I mean say you go and take 200 pics in a school and print 200 pics charging nothing upfront and only 10 purchase will you have made a loss?

I pondered the idea of trying my hand at this sort of thing a while back, under pressure from others I must admit, and in this day and age I was of the thought that the best way to do it would be online perusal of the shot before purchase rather than printing at all or charging upfront in anyway.

However, since I am inlove with weddings I didnt want to stretch my wings that wide yet, but in weddings I DO take a deposit and I also take the majority payment ont he day of the wedding then, which is how most photogs work. We are more of the mindset that pics should be printed for perusal free as it was the done thing for so long, but it just isnt feesible nowadays I dont think.

Upfront payment isnt really my thing, I would agree deposit or above I think.

Ask me tomorrow and I might say different, I'm indesiscive.

KarmaGarda

smelltheglove wrote: »

Lol, I just stated on the other thread that I may not go into detail enough, no the originaly post was to help me make my decision and see where others would stand in the same situation. Many here could do an equal job as a school photographer, I wanted to see if others would be of my thinking, I didnt see the point, my hubbie didnt want her left out.

The pay upfront thing wasnt too much of an issue to me to be honest, although I do think it is a cheap way of getting the business there are a fair few doing it now anyway. Thankfully my daughter wasnt left out, I went up to collect her from school and ask my group of mammies did they send theirs in for the pic and each of them replied no, if they wanted a pic theyd be asking me to take it instead.

And I just told you on the other thread you shouldn't go into more detail! How about contradicting myself

smelltheglove

KarmaGarda wrote: »

And I just told you on the other thread you shouldn't go into more detail! How about contradicting myself

I read this before readin that post, thanks.

SerialComplaint

Hope you folks don't mind a few queries from a non-photographer. I'm a parent and member of the Parents Association. We got the envelope home a few days ago, looking for prepayment of €45 for one 10x8 and 4 smaller shots. I have a few problems with this;

- quality - feedback from other parents from previous years is mixed
- cost - seems like poor value
- lack of flexibility - if it is a great photo, maybe I'd like more than 1 large print, or maybe I'd like it in electronic form so I can order my own prints and share it with family on Facebook
- lack of transparency - I suspect there is a kickback to the school built into this price, which I don't particularly mind in principle, but they should be open about this.
- no option for family photos where there is more than 1 sibling in the school, and no class photos.

I'm trying to get agreement from the Parents Association and the principal to put this business out to tender for future years, to ensure we get best quality and best price. I was hopeful that there are some sharp photographers that are making good use of technology to minimise the administration, i.e. online ordering and online delivery of digital versions.

Do you reckon that many photographers would be keen to respond to a tender and give competitive pricing for a school of 400 pupils. It might be possible to expand the contract to include First Communion and Confirmation days as well. What kind of kickbacks to the school are typical in these situations?

Thanks in advance.

Borderfox

Just on the price end, I shoot and print on site and my prices are €20 per 10x8 print with €30 for two. This is at Equestrian events and not at schools. Out of the €45 I would rekon that possibly €5-10 is going to the school and out of the rest €5 is on material costs with €25-30 going to the Photographer (all the usual costs coming out of this)

Personally I would be a bit wary of online ordering or any way that puts kids pictures up on a website for ordering purposes, 1: because of the way the internet operates ( I have seen studio shot pictures of a model I know appear on ads for all sorts of products on the web) if I had kids I wouldnt want their pictures on the internet, and 2: because if it goes on the web Parents will copy and print them off the even with a watermark on them (heard of it/seen it first hand) and this will reduce sales. I dont do electronic delivery of pictures in portraits as I want reprints and I would rekon a lot of other photographers would be the same ( although I wouldnt be suprised if the opposite was true)

If you get the right photographer expect to pay around the same for this service.

smelltheglove

To serial, we were given the option of more than one with an extra charge of €15 per child as far as I am aware. The price isnt too much of an issue to me honestly, it is a tad bit overexpensive but the fact that i could do it myself is what made me wonder as to why bother. I suppose its a personal decision really, are these shots important to you? If so go for it, if not dont.

To Border, when pondering the online idea it was more in a way of a client gallery than public domain, I think this would be the way to go for anyone serious about going into this line of photography, there are many sites I have visted where you cannot right click and copy, dont know how it is done but with a good webdesigner I am sure it would be possible for one who wishes to pursue it, not me though, not my area of interest.

Thoie

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I was hopeful that there are some sharp photographers that are making good use of technology to minimise the administration, i.e. online ordering and online delivery of digital versions.

From the online ordering perspective, it can cost quite a lot of money/time/skills to set something like that up, and the backend administration is probably nearly as much as if the orders all came in written on the back of envelopes. Most school photographers are, I'd imagine, pretty local, so they might do maybe 2,000 pupils a year. Setting up secure online ordering with a work flow that will take all the manual intervention out, even just using PayPal for payments, just isn't worth it for those kind of quantities.

I'm not saying that no-one out there does it, but they'd want to be selling an awful lot of prints to make it worthwhile.

melekalikimaka

smelltheglove wrote: »

there are many sites I have visted where you cannot right click and copy,

print screen

smelltheglove

melekalikimaka wrote: »

print screen

Ah yeah, always a possibility as is the scanning in of any sample shot sent home, there is always ways around it but I doubt there are many parents that would go to the hassle and the majority of those who want the pictures want the prints.

Thoie

smelltheglove wrote: »

there are many sites I have visted where you cannot right click and copy, dont know how it is done but with a good webdesigner I am sure it would be possible for one who wishes to pursue it, not me though, not my area of interest.

This is a pretty easy way to stop casual browsers - it won't stop people who really really want to steal your images, but it will stop a lot of people. There are neater (and more cunning) ways to do it.

<script language="JavaScript"> 
// distributed by http://hypergurl.com <!-- var popup="Sorry, right-click 
is disabled.\n\nThis Site Copyright &#169;2000"; function noway(go) { if 
(document.all) { if (event.button == 2) { alert(popup); return false; } } if (document.layers) 
{ if (go.which == 3) { alert(popup); return false; } } } if (document.layers) 
{ document.captureEvents(Event.MOUSEDOWN); } document.onmousedown=noway; // --> 
</script>

That's just a prewritten one I just googled - credit to http://www.hypergurl.com/

charybdis

smelltheglove wrote: »

there are many sites I have visted where you cannot right click and copy

The slow blade penetrates the Javascript.

Borderfox

smelltheglove wrote: »

To serial, we were given the option of more than one with an extra charge of €15 per child as far as I am aware. The price isnt too much of an issue to me honestly, it is a tad bit overexpensive but the fact that i could do it myself is what made me wonder as to why bother. I suppose its a personal decision really, are these shots important to you? If so go for it, if not dont.

To Border, when pondering the online idea it was more in a way of a client gallery than public domain, I think this would be the way to go for anyone serious about going into this line of photography, there are many sites I have visted where you cannot right click and copy, dont know how it is done but with a good webdesigner I am sure it would be possible for one who wishes to pursue it, not me though, not my area of interest.

Once pictures are on the web they are up (I dont like the idea of it even in password protected client galleries), disabling right click will not defeat the print screen button.

Borderfox

smelltheglove wrote: »

Ah yeah, always a possibility as is the scanning in of any sample shot sent home, there is always ways around it but I doubt there are many parents that would go to the hassle and the majority of those who want the pictures want the prints.

Ahh the perfect world, I wish I still had that view. Parents will go to any length to get what they want especially with pictures. Two sets of parents were buying pictures at one of my shows and when asked if they wanted another print one said to the other "sure we can scan this one and make another copy"

sineadw

Again, there is a little button on computers called printscreen. If you're seriously worried about image theft, putting a javascript disabling rightclick isn't going to help. I wouldn't bother, other than for novelty purposes (you can put interesting notices up when you deny rightclick privileges ) . My 7 yr old has found the workaround all on his own. And that goes for Flash galleries too.

The only way is to put horrible watermarks up (eugh) or bow to technological progression and give your audience something above what they can glean for free. Raise your game people!

AnCatDubh

Javascript is clever but very much as Thoie says "only to prevent the casual person".

firefox->tools->page info->media

gives you access to every image that is on a web page.

for online and if you want to make your product useless without the customer engaging in a commercial sense, you are probably talking about small versions of the image and darn it but i'm going to say it "watermark" it with a big and ugly logo. It is probably your only online protection. grrrrr.....

€45 imho is too much. In "advance" is too much.

An online ordering system shouldn't be out of the question. Anyone can sign up to redbubble for instance and sell their creations at a set price.

The difficulty I personally think with most photographers that do this for a living is that digital is understood as a great tool but they are living in the mentality of film / inflexibility and futile attempts at control (which now appears to have turned to prepayment before you see the images). Lets face it, digital is supposed to make it easier. You can shoot and publish for very low cost once your capital outlay is out of the way. But to ensure a living, a market, and continued existence, the model that is most likely followed is the old film model of requiring prints and worse still it has now shifted to prepayment at greatly inflated prices (accepted - kickbacks and all).

Gah - it is the difference between bits and atoms (much longer discussion someday).

sineadw

Bottom line I guess - some parents will be all too happy with an image (watermarked or not) of their kid/wedding/gig at 600 px at 72 dpi, as they'll never print. And even if they do their 'free' print will more than make up for the 30 quid they saved paying for it. We all know its a false economy, but in the days of very very decent p&s shoot cameras the pro photog has to raise his game. And so we should.

Old arguement thought.

Thoie

AnCatDubh wrote: »

An online ordering system shouldn't be out of the question. Anyone can sign up to redbubble for instance and sell their creations at a set price.

Yessss, but... (there's always a but )

Say you want to make a tenner profit on one child. Using the redbubble example, the cheapest a parent would then pay is about €13 for a postcard + €2 shipping. The base price (which the website keeps) for a small matted print is about €20, so call it €30. That base price is essentially the cost of setting up the online ordering and processing system. The small matted print seems to be roughly an 8x10 (or 8x12).

Even if we decide the photographer is donating their time, equipment and expertise for free, using an online ordering system is still going to cost the guts of €30 for an 8x10 and two postcards.

Borderfox

AnCatDubh wrote: »

Javascript is clever but very much as Thoie says "only to prevent the casual person".

firefox->tools->page info->media

gives you access to every image that is on a web page.

for online and if you want to make your product useless without the customer engaging in a commercial sense, you are probably talking about small versions of the image and darn it but i'm going to say it "watermark" it with a big and ugly logo. It is probably your only online protection. grrrrr.....

€45 imho is too much. In "advance" is too much.

An online ordering system shouldn't be out of the question. Anyone can sign up to redbubble for instance and sell their creations at a set price.

The difficulty I personally think with most photographers that do this for a living is that digital is understood as a great tool but they are living in the mentality of film / inflexibility and futile attempts at control (which now appears to have turned to prepayment before you see the images). Lets face it, digital is supposed to make it easier. You can shoot and publish for very low cost once your capital outlay is out of the way. But to ensure a living, a market, and continued existence, the model that is most likely followed is the old film model of requiring prints and worse still it has now shifted to prepayment at greatly inflated prices (accepted - kickbacks and all).

Gah - it is the difference between bits and atoms (much longer discussion someday).

I would agree that in advance it is too much, my models rely on orders not set amounts that are pre-ordered. That is my risk in taking on these jobs, this one is the first time I have heard of pre-payment in schools as any Photographers I know take payment on orders made.

stcstc

i was out with a photographer on friday where he showed me a print, about 24*20 of a portrait he had done

my comments were its a little soft and colours are not spot on, but its ok

he then produces another version where is was sharper and better colours, but not a huge ammount, i doubt is 80% of the public could tell the diff.


then he tells me the first one was printed in error from the 1024 pixel web preview,

SO, you could be very very suprised how decent and acceptable quality people can print from a smallish file!!!!!!!!

PaulieC

stcstc wrote: »

i was out with a photographer on friday where he showed me a print, about 24*20 of a portrait he had done

my comments were its a little soft and colours are not spot on, but its ok

he then produces another version where is was sharper and better colours, but not a huge ammount, i doubt is 80% of the public could tell the diff.


then he tells me the first one was printed in error from the 1024 pixel web preview,

SO, you could be very very suprised how decent and acceptable quality people can print from a smallish file!!!!!!!!

that's hilarious, considering how much people (me included) are brainwashed into thinking more, more, more megapixels to get big prints...

Ballyman

stcstc wrote: »

i doubt is 80% of the public could tell the diff.

then he tells me the first one was printed in error from the 1024 pixel web preview,

This is the key point. Have a look at peoples facebook pages etc and most of what you see are oof, over/under exposed shots of friends and family. Unless a photo is really really bad then most of the general public will be happy out and even then some people won't care.

It's generally only photographers who will find fault in photos.

smelltheglove

I agree with above, the majority of the general couple are happy with standard shots. I dont know how many times i've heard people say sure I can do that with my camera, I think this overlays more so into videography than photography where many weddings friends and family will use their own home recorders for the wedding dvd without realising the end result will be miles away.

There have been very few people I have come across outside of the photography sector that will understand exactly how little quality they will get from a screen shot, assuming that since it looks ok on the screen it will look ok in print.

SerialComplaint

Thanks all for the useful feedback - It is great to get a few views on the pricing and the pre-payment issue, and the practical difficulties of on-line ordering.

Would you expect there to be much interest from photographers in getting a contract like this in an established school for a two year period?

smelltheglove

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Thanks all for the useful feedback - It is great to get a few views on the pricing and the pre-payment issue, and the practical difficulties of on-line ordering.

Would you expect there to be much interest from photographers in getting a contract like this in an established school for a two year period?

Do you mean as if a school was offering this job to a photographer, I reckon it would be snapped up, if a school would accept this from a photographer, I'm sure theres a nice queue to join. From what I see schools tend to stay with photographers they have used previously.

SerialComplaint

smelltheglove wrote: »

Do you mean as if a school was offering this job to a photographer, I reckon it would be snapped up, if a school would accept this from a photographer, I'm sure theres a nice queue to join. From what I see schools tend to stay with photographers they have used previously.

Thanks for the feedback. What I proposing is to put it out to tender, i.e. invite 10-20 photographers to tender for the job, outlining their prices, their creative approach, their ordering facilities, and then choose the best option.

Healeagh

I am a professional photographer and specialize in school photography. When I go into a school my studio goes with me. There is no pre pay and parents receive a free proof of their childs photograph from which they can order a package. Alternatively they can go online and purchase digital download of their childs photograph if they dont want my hard copy. I make available discount vouchers for parents with limited funds to be put inside the proof envelope at the discretion of the principal. On the question of a kickback for the school, they usually get about 20% commission on sales which is for the school funds.

SerialComplaint

Thoie wrote: »

From the online ordering perspective, it can cost quite a lot of money/time/skills to set something like that up, and the backend administration is probably nearly as much as if the orders all came in written on the back of envelopes. Most school photographers are, I'd imagine, pretty local, so they might do maybe 2,000 pupils a year. Setting up secure online ordering with a work flow that will take all the manual intervention out, even just using PayPal for payments, just isn't worth it for those kind of quantities.

I'm not saying that no-one out there does it, but they'd want to be selling an awful lot of prints to make it worthwhile.

I suppose I was thinking that given all the photographers in all the schools in the world, there would be some off-the-shelf package available to photographers to allow them to provide this service with relative ease.

Healeagh wrote: »

I am a professional photographer and specialize in school photography. When I go into a school my studio goes with me. There is no pre pay and parents receive a free proof of their childs photograph from which they can order a package. Alternatively they can go online and purchase digital download of their childs photograph if they dont want my hard copy. I make available discount vouchers for parents with limited funds to be put inside the proof envelope at the discretion of the principal. On the question of a kickback for the school, they usually get about 20% commission on sales which is for the school funds.

Thanks - it's a fairly timely update to the old thread, given that we're just through the First Communion season. Our little darling got the note saying that the photographer would do his thing in the school a week after the Communion. I was a bit annoyed that no prices were quoted at that stage.

He did a group photo and also individual photos. We got back a proof sheet with details of the offers, which varied from around €20 up to €60, depending on which option you took. We went for 2 10x8s, 4 6x4s and 8 passport size for €24 unmounted. The class photo was extra - €10 for 8x6 or €15 for 10x8. No option for digital delivery.

I'm still surprised at the absence of any digital delivery option.

pullandbang

Zombies...........2009........

bullpost

Vampires are where its at in 2012

pullandbang wrote: »

Zombies...........2009........

Healeagh

Probably more relevant now that we are in times of recession.:D