At a time where people should unite

MjcMurfy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Incorrect. Probably less than 15% of the population took out mortgages in the period 2000 to 2006, so the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless. Short term unsecured loans are nothing compared to the mortgage issue.

Leaving aside my questions about the accuracy of that 15% figure, how exactly do you conclude the argument is groundless when you do not provide a single logical step to take us from the observation to the conclusion?

Can you please explain WHY you think that because only 15% of our population took out mortgages between 00-06 that the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless? What makes it groundless exactly?

From my reading of your post, the only way your argument would even make sense, never mind whether it is valid or not, is that you think that the cause of the Irish recession was "somehow" this 15% and their mortgages! Surely this cannot be the assumption you are operating under, can it?

It would have required countless thousands of homeowners to default on their loan agreements at virtually the same time to deliver a blow powerful enough to de-capitalise the banks so rapidly, and to such an extent, that they were essentially bankrupt if not for the government bailout. Even if 1,000 people default with an average mortgage of say €250,000, it is still only a loss of €250 million, spread between all the banks. This is mere pennies compared to the bailout they ultimately required, a whopping €7 billion.

I don't remember ever hearing anything about these mass foreclosures on the news last October?!?

Oh wait... that's because it didn't happen! Need I remind you that just before this crisis started, most people in this country had been successfully meeting their mortgage repayments. Heck, most of us are still managing to fend off foreclosure even now, if it means we have to eat bread and water for dinner!

I do not intend to waste my time rebutting your argument when what you are saying is obvious nonsense.

Also, to keep this post a readable length, I'll just pretend I didn't see that final statement you made, to the effect that "short term unsecured loans" have nothing to do with this mess.

Amhran Nua

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Leaving aside my questions about the accuracy of that 15% figure,

Thats a rough guesstimate at the number of houses sold plus top up mortgages etc in that period. Hence the number of mortgages.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Can you please explain WHY you think that because only 15% of our population took out mortgages between 00-06 that the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless?

15%<85%

MjcMurfy wrote: »

It would have required countless thousands of homeowners to default on their loan agreements at virtually the same time to deliver a blow powerful enough to de-capitalise the banks so rapidly, and to such an extent, that they were essentially bankrupt if not for the government bailout. Even if 1,000 people default with an average mortgage of say €250,000, it is still only a loss of €250 million, spread between all the banks. This is mere pennies compared to the bailout they ultimately required, a whopping €7 billion.

First of all they stopped lending largely because of upstream lenders shutting off the cash spigot. This was in a time when banks just stopped trusting one another, that whole toxic debt subprime debacle. Second of all they do not need €7 billion, the bank bailouts are a farcical exercise that has failed to achieve its objective anywhere in the world. The banks have over €100 billion in their retail mortgage books which they are happily selling just as fast as they can right now.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

I don't remember ever hearing anything about these mass foreclosures on the news last October?!?

You might have picked up the odd bit of news about a credit crunch though. This means banks weren't lending, even to one another.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Heck, most of us are still managing to fend off foreclosure even now, if it means we have to eat bread and water for dinner!

Yes, thats why the banks can resell your mortgage.

erictheviking

Irish people unite? Its an "I'm all right Jack" society. Everybody looks after their own interests, everybody wants other sections of society to pay for the economic crash.
The self employed want to pay less tax and see the public sector take massive pay cuts and job losses. People with no children want to see Child Benefit slashed and education budgets cut to the bone. Non union members blaming union members because they lost their jobs. IBEC wants the PAYE worker to shoulder the burden by having their standard of living cut dramatically while the well off take no cuts, People everywhere bitching about the bloke up the road who "got more out of the celtic tiger than I did".
Everybody wants someone else to pay. EVERYONE should make some sacrifice.What is really astonishing is nobody is blaming the real culprits or even asking them to pay for the damage they have caused.
By real culprits I mean corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and developers, speculators,
Then lower down the scale you have the greedy self employed who through the celtic tiger years helped raise costs of services to unsustainable levels, making us one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. ( I should stop as its turning into a rant now):)
In the words of Gay Byrne...."You wanted your independence........Now pay for it!"

SkepticOne

erictheviking wrote: »

What is really astonishing is nobody is blaming the real culprits or even asking them to pay for the damage they have caused.
By real culprits I mean corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and developers, speculators,

Plenty threads on here about those people and why they should be held accountable. I'm certainly against the sort of bailouts that are being handed to some of these groups.

musicmonky

erictheviking wrote: »

Irish people unite? Its an "I'm all right Jack" society. What is really astonishing is nobody is blaming the real culprits or even asking them to pay for the damage they have caused.
By real culprits I mean corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and developers, speculators,
Then lower down the scale you have the greedy self employed who through the celtic tiger years helped raise costs of services to unsustainable levels, making us one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. ( I should stop as its turning into a rant now):)
In the words of Gay Byrne...."You wanted your independence........Now pay for it!"

Totally true. Every one speculating many people did very well over the passed 10 years. Never hear about them.
I know lots of people sold up in Dublin moved to Galway/Cork now mortgage free. Or moved houses a few times, ended up mortgage free. Or the farmers who sold land make tons of money , Or the Guards with 5 houses.
Or the people who recently put lump sums on 13cent bank shares

Look what happened before the €100,000 guarantee. Suddenly all these people I thought where very middle (even low) income was worried about where to put their nest egg.

No one REALLY gaves a shi t and everyone loves moaning even if they have done well.

dvpower

I see a survey in today's sindo where 50% of people want a cut in public sevice pay, another 38% want a pay freeze and just 12% think that public servants should get pay increases.

Given this and recent comments by Lenihan, Harney, Cowen, O'Dea..., it looks like the writing is on the wall for public servants; expect an across the board pay cut coming down the tracks.

solas geal

To MjcMurphy - I probably agree with the majority of your post but I do take issue with your contention that everyone is to blame. What about all the ppl who didn't indulge in such excesses as you claim they have during the Celtic Tiger? For example, my parents don't even have 1 credit card, never mind 5, didn't buy any unaffordable car, house, tv whatever. Yet with indiscrimiate tax increases, spending cuts etc they will still be forced to pay for the situation. There are plenty others like them.
I know booms and busts are the nature of economic cycles and we do have to deal with it, most likely involving tax increases, but I think your painting of EVERYBODY as greedy-limo-driving-5 maxed credit cards-with so many plasma tvs they don't know where to put them-hardly helps the situation, and certainly will make it difficult for you to find favour with the masses for your argument as it is simply untrue.

starbelgrade

solas geal wrote: »

To MjcMurphy - I probably agree with the majority of your post but I do take issue with your contention that everyone is to blame. What about all the ppl who didn't indulge in such excesses as you claim they have during the Celtic Tiger? For example, my parents don't even have 1 credit card, never mind 5, didn't buy any unaffordable car, house, tv whatever. Yet with indiscrimiate tax increases, spending cuts etc they will still be forced to pay for the situation. There are plenty others like them.
I know booms and busts are the nature of economic cycles and we do have to deal with it, most likely involving tax increases, but I think your painting of EVERYBODY as greedy-limo-driving-5 maxed credit cards-with so many plasma tvs they don't know where to put them-hardly helps the situation, and certainly will make it difficult for you to find favour with the masses for your argument as it is simply untrue.

It's not a question of who was frugal or who was living on credit. It's not a question of who is in the public service or who is in the private sector. It's not even a question of who is employed or who is unemployed.

Everyone is feeling the pain to some degree albeit, different degrees. The question is, that when the sh*t hits the fan, why does everyone seem to think that they & they alone are the victim & that they are not the ones who are to take any of the blame or the responsibilty.

There is a great sense these days that we have been divided by the ruling class & that divided, we are once again conquered. Our community spirit to me, is dead & little that anyone has posted in this thread has done anything to convince me otherwise.

North_West_Art

My Dad was in Croatia a few years back, and was staying in a guest house where he became aquainted with the landlord and his friends who were all local men. They told him that a friend of theirs needed a life saving operation a year previously, and that 20 local men took a 50% wage cut for 4 months to pay for it. A cold day in hell before that gesture would ever be witnessed in this land of saints and scholars...

starbelgrade

North_West_Art wrote: »

My Dad was in Croatia a few years back, and was staying in a guest house where he became aquainted with the landlord and his friends who were all local men. They told him that a friend of theirs needed a life saving operation a year previously, and that 20 local men took a 50% wage cut for 4 months to pay for it. A cold day in hell before that gesture would ever be witnessed in this land of saints and scholars...

20 years ago, that might have been a different story in Ireland - I doubt we would have been THAT giving, but it seems that all sense of community, solidarity & even basic empathy went out the window with the Celtic Tiger.

Nobody's entitled to a 500mile wide plasma screen, no-one's daughter is entitled to ballet lessons & ugh boots, no-one's son is entitled to be picked up from school in a Chelsea tractor. But everyone should be entitled to at least some compassion and if needed, the help & support of their peers.

SkepticOne

starbelgrade wrote: »

Everyone is feeling the pain to some degree albeit, different degrees. The question is, that when the sh*t hits the fan, why does everyone seem to think that they & they alone are the victim & that they are not the ones who are to take any of the blame or the responsibilty.

No, the public sector have largely escaped the pinch to date. What proportion of the recently made unemployed are from the publc sector, do you think?

What have the public sector done to deserve unity with the private sector that pays their wages?

A lot of the anger against the public sector and the reason there is little unity stems from about a year ago when the cuts in pay such as the pension levy were first proposed. Back then the reaction from the representatives of public sector workers was "why should we take all the pain?", completely oblivious as to what was happening in the real economy that generates tax to pay their wages.

Now there is a call for unity. But what does this unity mean? I don't want to see anyone starve but why should I unite with workers who get approximately 25% better pay on a job for job basis, which comes out of the wage packets of private sector workers, when supporting that means that the underlying economy (that, ironically the public sector depend on) is weakened.

The only sort of unity I want to see is the level of public sector pay should be unified (i.e. brougtht to the same level immediately) with the equivalent private sector pay levels. Then we can talk about other forms of unity.

mikemac

There is no unity OP.
Every sector is looking out for themselves and nothing wrong with that.
Some sectors like public service workers and farmers are very organized and can organize protests quickly.
And some sectors like private sector PAYE workers feel disillusioned and don't see anyone representing and may well struggle to speak up.

It'll be those who speak loudest or who can guarantee a vote that get the preferential treatment. So speak up

Me, I wasn't to blame, average job, don't work overtime anymore due to 41% tax and levies, it ain't worth my while and that's less tax collected!
Didn't buy an overpriced house, never got 25% from an SSIA and ok, I'll pay for NAMA!
But my savings go to Rabobank a Dutch bank, and yes I pay DIRT tax on that again so don't worry, Minister Lenihan get's his share

starbelgrade

SkepticOne wrote: »

No, the public sector have largely escaped the pinch to date. What proportion of the recently made unemployed are from the publc sector, do you think?

What have the public sector done to deserve unity with the private sector that pays their wages?

A lot of the anger against the public sector and the reason there is little unity stems from about a year ago when the cuts in pay such as the pension levy were first proposed. Back then the reaction from the representatives of public sector workers was "why should we take all the pain?", completely oblivious as to what was happening in the real economy that generates tax to pay their wages.

Now there is a call for unity. But what does this unity mean? I don't want to see anyone starve but why should I unite with workers who get approximately 25% better pay on a job for job basis, which comes out of the wage packets of private sector workers, when supporting that means that the underlying economy (that, ironically the public sector depend on) is weakened.

The only sort of unity I want to see is the level of public sector pay should be unified (i.e. brougtht to the same level immediately) with the equivalent private sector pay levels. Then we can talk about other forms of unity.

I don't know what the average public sector gets paid. Neither do I know what their personal circumstances are - some are probably in negaative equity, some of them probably have partners who were once in the private sector who are now unemployed, some are probably struggling to pay the bills, feed the kids etc etc

And some are probably loaded. I don't know. None of us do - what I'm debating /arguing for is an honest deabte on it... I hate to use cliches, but a levelling of the playing field to see where we all really are - without the hyperbole, without the vitriole, without the fighting for corners, so that we can see once and for all where (excuse cliche MA-SSS-IFE) where the goalposts are really & truly and how and if they can be moved to make a more honest, open & ultimately, just society.

It's asking a lot, but it's not impossible.

starbelgrade

mikemac wrote: »

Me, I wasn't to blame, average job, don't work overtime anymore due to 41% tax and levies, it ain't worth my while and that's less tax collected!
Didn't buy an overpriced house, never got 25% from an SSIA and ok, I'll pay for NAMA!

You're not part of the problem, but you are part of the solution. By paying for NAMA & if you choose, by working overtime. At least, that's what the government line is. You should be angry. Everyone should be angry. Everyone is feeling gimped these days.

But where should we vent this anger? At each other & fight amongst ourselves for the scraps or aim for the pie that's been unfairly divided for years between the elite & the super elite?

jetfiremuck

Excellent food for thought. I think most people let the government do what it liked when things started to take off as everyone was happy. Now they are the object of scorn. My self I think it was about 1997 when I felt things lift. Bank Of Scotland with competitive mortgage rates and remember MBNA credit card company which gave credit cards to anyone who had a job. This and the cheaper money led to the Celtic Tiger as I see it. Anyone who remembers the PAYE marches in the 80s when the car sales for the year 50k, expensive interest rates on houses etc. did not buy into the Celtic Tiger and these are the folks who feel shafted. The "I told you so" is no consolation to them.

mega man

starbelgrade wrote: »

... we are doing the complete opposite. On the radio, there have been numerous texts from private sector workers b*tching about public sector pay. There have been threads on Boards saying that taxi drivers should go to hell, that homeowners who default on their loans should be made homeless, that debt defaulters get what they deserve (up to jail time in some extremes).

Yes, we are angry at the government, yes, we are angry at having less to live on, yes we are angry.

But where are we directing our anger? A lot of the time, in the wrong direction. At a time like this, we need to unite, or we will fall apart..

Why dont we give the banks the two fingers!They cant jail the whole country...

ghost_ie

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The public sector haven't been trumpting their divine right to guaranteed jobs, guaranteed pensions and 25% higher salaries. The media has done this.

My daughter is a nurse. She pays towards her pension just like a private sector employee, and also pays a levy for having this pension (the levy does not contribute to her pension).

She works 5 days a week, 8.30am-4.30pm - and frequently works overtime for no pay - in an endoscopy unit for €35,000 per annum. She has never taken a sick day. How much more work do you want her to do? She does her job well, and her salary and pension won't come anywhere close to those of the politicians, higher civil servants and bankers who have got us into this mess.

Diarmuid

ghost_ie wrote: »

She does her job well, and her salary and pension won't come anywhere close to those of the politicians, higher civil servants and bankers who have got us into this mess.

I think you are missing the point of comparing job descriptions when comparing salaries. She should not be on the same salary as someone (supposedly) running the country. However she should be on a similar wage to someone doing her job in the private sector. She probably isn't.

Noreen1

OP - I see the logic in what you are saying. I can't see it ever achieving anything, unfortunately.

The fact is, we have a media that prefers sensationalist headlines to balanced reporting, a lot of the time.

Add the fact that a lot of people, when highly stressed, react with antagonism/anger, and you have a situation where peoples justifiable anger can be exploited and manipulated by vested interests and their expensive marketing teams.

The main fault her lies with the Banks - they broke the Golden rule of Banking (Never lend more than you have in Deposits!)

Those who buy shares in any Company worldwide take a loss if those shares fall in value. There is no question about that.
I see no reason why Bank shareholders shouldn't expect to take at least some loss.
I absolutely fail to see why many Bank Managers still have a job, never mind fat bonuses.

My anger is directed at the greedy Banks who caused the crises, and the Government who, at best, failed utterly to manage the economy - at worst, colluded with the elite to safeguard the interests of the few, at the expense of Joe Public - and rolled out "qualified professionals" to strengthen their case, when needed.

Joe Public, whether he/she works in the Public sector or Private sector, took out mortgages or loans based on their income. Joe Public is not required to be an economist - that's why we have professional services.

Therefore there is no point in Joe Public blaming the guy next door because the professionals made a complete mess of things.

When we play the Public vs. Private sector game, we are just letting the real culprits off the hook.

Noreen

jetfiremuck

To rely on the Gov and it's ilk to guide us is in itself lunacy. The easiest way the gov use to implement policies is by keeping sides pitted against each other. Look at how the pensioners medical card climbdown happened when Biddy and Tom put pressure on. Time to deal with carbon tax, water rates, etc and create incentives for the private sector to create jobs.

Noreen1

jetfiremuck wrote: »

To rely on the Gov and it's ilk to guide us is in itself lunacy. The easiest way the gov use to implement policies is by keeping sides pitted against each other. Look at how the pensioners medical card climbdown happened when Biddy and Tom put pressure on. Time to deal with carbon tax, water rates, etc and create incentives for the private sector to create jobs.

Agreed, 100%.

The trouble is, I was taught in National school that it was practically impossible for a Bank to fail. I'm sure I wasn't alone in being taught that.
Remember the phrase "It's (as safe as) money in the Bank"?
The trouble is, people trusted their friendly Bank managers, and all the economic "experts".
Now the same cynical bunch are manipulating us again - and we're falling for it - again!

You're right, it's time to start dealing with the carbon tax, water rates etc - and a General Election would be a good starting point!

Noreen

Idbatterim

there is no way Im prepared to unite! im a private sector worker, public sector workers are in disneyland compared to our Mosney! Id love to see a right wing economist on primetime or that new Pat kenny show, go head to head with a union leader and absolutely blow their arguament out of the water, they dont even have an arguament for god sake! Social welfare rates and PS wages have to be cut for the good of all, this includes the social welfare recipients and Public servants! What do the unemployed and PS produce or sell? nothing obviously, as long as the private sector is being decimated at the expense of those 2, things are going to get worse for all!

Idbatterim

"I see a survey in today's sindo where 50% of people want a cut in public sevice pay, another 38% want a pay freeze and just 12% think that public servants should get pay increases.

Given this and recent comments by Lenihan, Harney, Cowen, O'Dea..., it looks like the writing is on the wall for public servants; expect an across the board pay cut coming down the tracks."

I cant believe its as low as 50%, id love to put up a poll on boards and see what the percentage is! id imagine alot higher! I read that article and laughed, Id like to ask the 38% that opted for pay freeze, where should we cut atleast, atleast 4 billion from in the budget? I cap my pay at the 35k, which keeps me on 20% PAYE, i could claim more, but dont need to and why the hell would I, when every cent of it is being needlessly wasted! There is just another example and there have been others here, of trying to place more taxes on middle income and high income earners will do!

Idbatterim

I also just read the myth, yes a myth that the wealthy are being insulated from the current reality, 4% of the top earners pay 48% off all tax! nothing could be further from the truth! 40% of workers pay no tax!!! start with them!

irish_bob

Idbatterim wrote: »

there is no way Im prepared to unite! im a private sector worker, public sector workers are in disneyland compared to our Mosney! Id love to see a right wing economist on primetime or that new Pat kenny show, go head to head with a union leader and absolutely blow their arguament out of the water, they dont even have an arguament for god sake! Social welfare rates and PS wages have to be cut for the good of all, this includes the social welfare recipients and Public servants! What do the unemployed and PS produce or sell? nothing obviously, as long as the private sector is being decimated at the expense of those 2, things are going to get worse for all!

a right wing opinion on RTE , better chance of seeing a dodo

bladespin

magicbastarder wrote: »

surely if you're unemployed, you're neither a public sector nor a private sector worker?

Just guessing but those who are unemployed have lost jobs so essentially they were workers who have fallen on hard times, this is not the time to desert or mock them.

irish_bob

Idbatterim wrote: »

"I see a survey in today's sindo where 50% of people want a cut in public sevice pay, another 38% want a pay freeze and just 12% think that public servants should get pay increases.

Given this and recent comments by Lenihan, Harney, Cowen, O'Dea..., it looks like the writing is on the wall for public servants; expect an across the board pay cut coming down the tracks."

I cant believe its as low as 50%, id love to put up a poll on boards and see what the percentage is! id imagine alot higher! I read that article and laughed, Id like to ask the 38% that opted for pay freeze, where should we cut atleast, atleast 4 billion from in the budget? I cap my pay at the 35k, which keeps me on 20% PAYE, i could claim more, but dont need to and why the hell would I, when every cent of it is being needlessly wasted! There is just another example and there have been others here, of trying to place more taxes on middle income and high income earners will do!

considering the percentage of people who have relatives who work in the ps , im amazed that its such a high figure who support ps pay cuts , most irish people cant see past the end of their nose and a broke farmer , publican , panel beater , carpenter or corner shop owner who has a wife , husband , daughter , son etc who works in the ps will support the state sector to the hilt , if thier is one thing irish people feel strongly about , its keeping money in the family

irish_bob

bladespin wrote: »

Just guessing but those who are unemployed have lost jobs so essentially they were workers who have fallen on hard times, this is not the time to desert or mock them.

those on the dole are not the ones who will get this economy out of the ditch , they are not special as a group , they cannot be exempt from cuts

Diarmuid

Noreen1 wrote: »

Joe Public, whether he/she works in the Public sector or Private sector, took out mortgages or loans based on their income. Joe Public is not required to be an economist - that's why we have professional services

You don't need to be an economist to understand what a mortgage is. (maybe a junior cert in maths). And if you don't understand what a mortgage is and the consequences of them, you should be taking one out. Just because the banks made a balls of their job does not absolve people who over-borrowed and overpaid for property.

Dannyboy83

MjcMurfy wrote: »

I barely know where or how to start off this post so I guess I'll just jump straight in with:

<shnip>

No amount of criticizing the government, who are now trying to pick up all the pieces of this mess, will change that fact!

Cliffs please..........