Pentax Lens for motorsport

cian1500ww

Hi guys,

In another few months I'd be looking at getting a new lens for my Pentax k-m to replace my sigma 70-300mm F4. I'll need something with very fast autofocus and at least F3 preferably closer to F2 max aperture. Can anyone recommend anything ? Basically I'm looking for the Pentax equivalent of the canon 70-200mm f2.8 lens.
Any ideas ??

AnCatDubh

The Pentax SMC DA* Series 50-135mm f/2.8 ED IF SDM is mega and the subject of my present desire (becoming an obsession ). But it might be a little short on distance for your motorsport. It's equivalent focal length is 76.5mm to 207mm in the 35mm format.

Your other options are the Sigma EX 70-200 F2.8 or Tamron SP 70-200mm F/2.8 Di. I don't know much of these (as per the previously stated object of my desire). They will give a little better reach which might be useful but I think the Pentax 50-135 is optically better and faster autofocus (SDM stuff). If you are using manual focus (i'm assuming) the latter point won't be particularly relevant but it is very nice and rather silent.

specific pentax reviews over here - worthwhile checking out.

cian1500ww

Yeah I seen the 50-135mm, amzzing lens but the price is crazy !!
I might look at little further at the Sigma 70-200mm, whats the autofocus like on it ??
I can't really manage the manual focus, it's bloody hard to try and manually focus on a car doing 70mph+

CabanSail

There is the Sony 70-200 F2.8 G. I am assuming that Sony lenses are compatible?

AnCatDubh

cian1500ww wrote: »

Yeah I seen the 50-135mm, amzzing lens but the price is crazy !!
I might look at little further at the Sigma 70-200mm, whats the autofocus like on it ??
I can't really manage the manual focus, it's bloody hard to try and manually focus on a car doing 70mph+

Still a great lens by all accounts - see here

Re: the manual focus, What technique are you using? I haven't shot motor (must get around to it some day) but I'd expect it to be all about pre-focus for the defined shots - such that you frame your scene in advance with manual focus and then either take a single shot (with knowing everything appropriate is in focus) and take your chances, or burst and have a better chance of success. But again, I've never done it so I don't know what's involved or what the best / better techniques are for it.

cian1500ww

Well the problem I have with pre-focusing is well what do I focus to when theres no car, so for example I'm along a hedge and I'm aiming at capturing a shot of a car at a corner which I'm looking straight at. Should I just focus on the spot on the road where I want to capture the car or a spot on the hedge ??? I normal go for the single shot as panning really isn't possible in rallying unless you have a media pass and can get standing in a suitable but dangerous spot.
The current lens I'm using is a Sigma 70-300mm F4-5.6 DG, a few sample shots are below, they seem a little soft when I look at what other guys are coming up with:


That was using autofocus only, in shutter priority mode. The resize software sharpened them up a bit. The 70-300mm lens is grand but I'd like to spend another bit if I knew it would improve the photos and possibly get me published.

CabanSail

I cannot see the shots as they are blocked.

When I used to be involved in Motor Sport there was no such thing as AF. We just had to Focus. Even with AF now I would use Manual Focus for the shot you are describing. Pick a point where the subject will be & lock it there. If you are wanting to freeze the action then select a suitably high shutter speed, probably 1/500th or faster. Even at that speed a monopod may be useful. You should also check out the specs of the lens you are using as you may find that at the extreme zoom & wide open it may be soft, a lot of zooms are. So you may have to pull back a bit and/or make sure the aperture is shut down a stop or two.

cian1500ww

CabanSail wrote: »

I cannot see the shots as they are blocked.

When I used to be involved in Motor Sport there was no such thing as AF. We just had to Focus. Even with AF now I would use Manual Focus for the shot you are describing. Pick a point where the subject will be & lock it there. If you are wanting to freeze the action then select a suitably high shutter speed, probably 1/500th or faster. Even at that speed a monopod may be useful. You should also check out the specs of the lens you are using as you may find that at the extreme zoom & wide open it may be soft, a lot of zooms are. So you may have to pull back a bit and/or make sure the aperture is shut down a stop or two.

Ok, how would I know from the specs ?
Even if I did go for something like the Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 would you still recommend to use manual focus ?

AnCatDubh

The shots you've posted aren't bad at all - infact I should turn that around to say they are quite good to my eye. At max resolution (pixel peeping) you aren't suffering too much from normal aberrations that are to be expected. They are quite sharp. I'm not surprised at all given the Sigma lens which although relatively cheap and cheerful, will generally give reasonable quality. I have great examples of that lens with lots of aberration visible as I tend to forget about the extremities of the focal lengths and / or apertures (doh! moments).

In shutter priority your camera has metered and selected f5.6 which i'd guess is pretty cool for that type of subject. Remember the effect that aperture will have on depth of field also as things can get pretty narrow with big focal lengths and open apertures - this I think becomes particularly relevant for you doing the manual focus thing.

As cabansail says, pick a point (side of the road or similar) and use it for the manual focus. In this setup you are predetermining the scene that you will shoot so you won't be able to quickly adjust everything to take the same vehicle as it comes up the road for instance. Unless you have a second setup perhaps.

Again, although I haven't done it (so could be talking through me tail ), the killer shots, the ones that will sell, the ones that will be published, would be based on location stuff - the type that you see where the car momentarily lifts off the ground as it rises over a hump on the road, the sideways skid with smoke rising from the tyres as the vehicle careers through a corner, etc.... Location, location, location.... This might be where you will start to need accreditation (again just guessing).

Investment in a good lens is well worthy as a plan.

Do you shoot in burst mode? Your k-m will shoot 3.5fps for 5 frames in JPEG or 4 in RAW. That would greatly increase the likelihood of capturing the action at a focus time. If i understand it correctly (although again having never done it), burst shooting in motor sports is a no-brainer.

CabanSail

cian1500ww wrote: »

Ok, how would I know from the specs ?
Even if I did go for something like the Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 would you still recommend to use manual focus ?

If you look at DP Review there is a section where you can select many popular lenses & it will show the various distrotions for different focal lengths & F stops. This information is normally also published in reviews.

For the set up you are describing I would tend to use Manual Focus & do a burst, as said above. You then have the shot set up & there are less variables to go wrong. You know the point that you want to be sharp so why let the camera select anything different. If the AF is a bit slow then you may find that the car has moved on slightly from the point where it locked. It may also pick up a spot at the front of the car where you would prefer it sharpest at the driver. These are considerations when using shallow DoF. You will also have the freedom to compose the shot however you like & are not tied to a focus sensor point.

TJM

As a Pentax shooter I have to admit that the AF on Pentax bodies isn't generally great in high speed situations. (Though my k20d is light years ahead of its predecessor.) I haven't used the k-m so can't comment on it particularly, but I'd be wary lest you buy a wide aperture lens and discover that the body can't focus it fast enough.

CabanSail

Hab]ving seen the shots now it does seem that they are sharp enough from what I can see. I think the area you need to concentrate on is composition. You need to find a location where the car looks a bit more spectacular. The background also needs to be considered. The people behind the cars do not add to the shots & they are more of a distraction.

This is all hard to achieve, but keep at it.

cian1500ww

Thanks, any idea of how I'd get rid of the shine on the glass of the car, I heard a polarizing filter would help ??

CabanSail

Yes - A Circular Polariser will reduce reflections but you will also lose more than a stop through it.

cian1500ww

CabanSail wrote: »

Yes - A Circular Polariser will reduce reflections but you will also lose more than a stop through it.

Ah ok, I'm going to Wales rally GB next week so I'll give it a try then.

Paddy@CIRL

Can't understand the need to be using MF in this day and age in motorsport. Is it really that slow in the Pentax ?

The beauty of rallying is that you don't need a media pass at all to get a good spot. When stages are miles & miles long there should be plenty of opportunities to pick a good spot. Always stand on the inside of the corner, never stand in the run off and even when your on the inside, make sure your not standing somewhere that would be marked as 'cut' on the pacenotes.

Circ Polarizer will reduce reflections on windscreen when its rotated correctly but you lose a lot of light as well. Not ideal when the Rally GB stages are mostly in the forests and can be dark enough at the best of times ...

Good rule of thumb for rallying is if your shooting the cars head-on, use aperture priority mode and the lowest F/number. Shooting side on or the car is passing you by left to right, try shooting at around 1/125th of a second in shutter priority mode or even less if your confident enough with your panning skills.

AnCatDubh

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Can't understand the need to be using MF in this day and age in motorsport.

Probably my fault for leading Cian astray on this mind you did say that I was guessing

I'm now curious as to how the whole motor sports shooting works - how does one go about finding out what's on / where to go / what the rules of engagement are / do you need to be accredited. Is there a governing website? What's a good place to start? Is it something that you need in your blood to be good at or like other genres that you just need patience and practice?

cian1500ww

Thanks Paddy, rally GB is a pain in that spectators are only allowed in spectator viewing points so you don't really have as much freedom as you would have at rallies here. It can be hard to get standing on the inside as they're normally tapped up but sure I'll try anyway.

AnCatDubh wrote:

Probably my fault for leading Cian astray on this mind you did say that I was guessing

I'm now curious as to how the whole motor sports shooting works - how does one go about finding out what's on / where to go / what the rules of engagement are / do you need to be accredited. Is there a governing website? What's a good place to start? Is it something that you need in your blood to be good at or like other genres that you just need patience and practice?

Join a few motorsport forums and keep an eye on the calendar, that's how I do it. Rallies are handy in the sense that you can just arrive try a few shots and go, no tickets to worry about either, well most of the time. I'd say practice is the key, I've only gotten to one rally this year but next year I'm hoping to make it to quite a few of them. Media pass makes life a hell of a lot easier at rallies, it will allow you to come 5 minutes before the stage starts, get a brilliant but dangerous spot and then leave whenever you want for the next stage.There's plenty of red tape though, you'd have to apply to motorsport ireland, and you have to have motorsport related work published and evidence of it along with a letter from the magazine or paper. I'm doing my best to get one but the only work I've got published is vintage related shots

Paddy@CIRL

Interesting about Rally GB, is it true you have to pay onto some of the stages as well ?

It's a bit of a catch 22 to shoot motorsports, you need to of been published to get access, but to get published you need to have access. I got lucky in that I happened to be helping out with Prodrift when it was really only starting out and not very strict on media rules at the time (as PD is not affiliated with Motorsport Ireland)

If you get involved with your local motorsport club you should be able to get access through them, althought you can shoot rallying in Ireland trouble free without a pass. Sure, you won't have access to some spots that are reserved for accredited media, but 9/10 you won't want to shoot there because the spot will be crammed with people getting the same shots of the same cars.

If you know the stages before hand, they can usually be worth a recce run to try find somewhere, if not, the rally program can be worth its weight in gold in helping you find a good spot.

The most important thing about any motorsport though, be it cars, bikes, track or road; Listen to the marshalls !

cian1500ww

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Interesting about Rally GB, is it true you have to pay onto some of the stages as well ?

It's a bit of a catch 22 to shoot motorsports, you need to of been published to get access, but to get published you need to have access. I got lucky in that I happened to be helping out with Prodrift when it was really only starting out and not very strict on media rules at the time (as PD is not affiliated with Motorsport Ireland)

If you get involved with your local motorsport club you should be able to get access through them, althought you can shoot rallying in Ireland trouble free without a pass. Sure, you won't have access to some spots that are reserved for accredited media, but 9/10 you won't want to shoot there because the spot will be crammed with people getting the same shots of the same cars.

If you know the stages before hand, they can usually be worth a recce run to try find somewhere, if not, the rally program can be worth its weight in gold in helping you find a good spot.

The most important thing about any motorsport though, be it cars, bikes, track or road; Listen to the marshalls !

Yeah alot of the english rallies have gone for paid access only, it's £90 for a weekend pass.
Yeah getting the media pass is a pain, what I'm hoping to do is give a few shots for free to some magazines in return for a letter from them that I can use for the application. Pacenotes is my only hope, they seem alright though. A recce of the stages is the real key, but that can be hard done as it takes a lot of extra time plus any spots you find may be too dangerous to stand. As regards marshals, as long as you get decent enough ones your all right but those who like having the power are a right pain, they go a little overboard on safety :rolleyes: