Who will you vote for?

electrogrimey

dvpower wrote: »

How was it positive?

Do you not think it is positive to have universal access to third level education? In an economy whose main export is skilled labour, and an economy which gains a vast amount of its income from attracting international research & development companies into the country, it would be economic suicide to introduce third level fees into what is one of the best education systems in Europe. At the moment, the majority of school leavers go on to third level education, and this is why we have such a skilled work force. If people were charged €20,000 for a college education, in a recession, without being given notice to save up college funds, a tiny minority of people would go on to college. It would ruin the next generation's hopes for a decent knowledge based economy, and have a completely negative effect in the long, and short terms.

That's how it was positive.

dvpower

electrogrimey wrote: »

Do you not think it is positive to have universal access to third level education? In an economy whose main export is skilled labour, and an economy which gains a vast amount of its income from attracting international research & development companies into the country, it would be economic suicide to introduce third level fees into what is one of the best education systems in Europe. At the moment, the majority of school leavers go on to third level education, and this is why we have such a skilled work force. If people were charged €20,000 for a college education, in a recession, without being given notice to save up college funds, a tiny minority of people would go on to college. It would ruin the next generation's hopes for a decent knowledge based economy, and have a completely negative effect in the long, and short terms.

That's how it was positive.

All very well if we could afford it. We are left in a position where those who don't go on to third level (by and large the poorer) are subsidising those who do (by and large the better off) including some very wealthy people.

The green party are happy to exclude the reintroduction of fees, but make no proposals for education funding (except that we should have more of it). This is as bad as FF gombeenism.

Of course, the choice isn't between no fees and upfront fees. Other proposals have been put forward for a loan system or a tax levy on those who benefit from a 'free' college education. so no one need to be excluded from third level education because of fees. In fact, the green party's shortsighted move is likely to put upward pressure on registration fees.

electrogrimey

dvpower wrote: »

All very well if we could afford it. We are left in a position where those who don't go on to third level (by and large the poorer) are subsidising those who do (by and large the better off) including some very wealthy people.

The green party are happy to exclude the reintroduction of fees, but make no proposals for education funding (except that we should have more of it). This is as bad as FF gombeenism.

Of course, the choice isn't between no fees and upfront fees. Other proposals have been put forward for a loan system or a tax levy on those who benefit from a 'free' college education. so no one need to be excluded from third level education because of fees. In fact, the green party's shortsighted move is likely to put upward pressure on registration fees.

I agree with the fact that they were going to introduce fees because they needed the money, and that the money has to be found somewhere, but I think third level fees is one of the worst places they could ask for money. Shutting down half of the hundreds of unnecessary bureaucratic institutions FF have set up and are now funding would be one place I'd suggest finding this money, reducing the number of ministers, and reducing their pay, would be another.

Taxipete29

Sand wrote: »

@Taxipete29


- Gilmore agrees and supports the public sector wages introduced by Fianna Fail: He has said he does not support job cuts or pay cuts.

- Labours tax cutting agenda was part of their 2007 electoral manifesto. Not only did they agree with the tax slashing agenda, they wanted to cut it even further.

When people ask why did Fianna Fail win election after election, they need to remember that Labour (for one) didnt offer anything different. The public liked high spending, low taxes and Labour merely offered higher spending and lower taxes.

Dont get me wrong...Fianna Fail deserve to be expelled from politics for a generation for their utter mismanagement of the fiscal situation in the last couple of years, and some combination of Fine Gael and Labour is the only workable alternative. But claims that Labour are or were "the only major party to have an alternative vision to our neo-liberal government" are ludicrous.

Fianna Fail are not neo liberal. Labour do not offer an alternative vision. Theyre basically offering the same crap with different brands. The only difference being Fianna Fail are at least realistic enough to acknowledge tough budgets are required to rein in public spending to sustainable levels in line with revenue, whilst Labour are off snorting hopium.

@Red Alert


This is a very good reason for voting FG: It is one of the racing certainties of Irish politics that Labour might do a deal with Fianna Fail ( As I've pointed out they dont have any real policy differences and the match is easier than one with FG) but FG will never go into government with Fianna Fail. If you absolutely positively want to ensure Fianna Fail dont get back into power in 2012, Fine Gael is a better option for your vote than Labour.

First of all a week is a long time in politics never mind two years so its unrealistic to hold someone to their manifesto from 2007 when at that stage we were still doing quite well.

Eamonn Gilmore apparently stated on Monday on ( I didnt see it but its mentioned on the front of the Times this morning) that he accepted there would be cuts in the public sector pay bill. The reality is that there will be cuts a plenty before there are job losses and everyone even the unions know this.

The point is a vote for FG will see more halfbaked ideas being thrown around like Endas plan to abolish the Senate. While in reality it may not be a bad thing long term( although I dont agree with it) it was done without any consultation with his party. That is why FG have spent the last few days shoving various TDs and senators in front of the camera pledging there support. It was badly managed from a political point of view.

Labour dont pander to developers, bankers or to unions( despite what people think) When Labour have been in Government they have always promoted fiscal responsibilty and restraint and had the rainbow coalition remained in power with Ruairi Quinn controlling finance I dont think we would be in the mess we are now. Labelling Labour the same as FF is ridiculous.

Sand

@Pride Fighter

Labour will never ever do a deal with FF. The last time they did despite a Labour finance minister presiding over a time of economic properity, a Labour education minister axing third level fees they were hammered despite being a part of one of the greatest governments in the history of the state. Labour will not make the same mistake twice, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

This is myth tbh, Labour were probably more popular in government after they joined FF than beforehand. How they lost the election in 1997 is one of the great mysteries of Irish politics with the blame being due to A) general incompetence Joan Burtons idiotic musings on fixing the causes of crime versus JoDs infamous "Zero Tolerance" response C) The simple Bertie Ahern factor of a the heartening tale of a bumbling moron who could win the hearts of Ireland at large...in contrast to the general incompetence of FG and Labour.

Gilmore would do a deal with FF tomorrow. FF actually would be more against it, because they still seeth with resentment over the moralising Labour did over them on the last breakup.

FG on the otherhand... I wouldnt say never ever ever, but its a racing certainty they would never go into government with FF, whereas Labour would in a heartbeat. The anti-FF vote is for FG, not for Labour.

@electrogrimey

I would have said this a few weeks ago, but they have more or less single-handedly stopped third level fees coming in, which is one of the only positive moves this government has made recently.

Bollocks- theyve only showed their own idiocy. FF will simply raise registration fees to compensate. And in exchange the Greens have approved NAMA which will help bring about a debt situation where somewhere between 33% and 66% of tax revenue will go to servicing the banks debt. Ill let you guess where free 3rd level education comes in priority to that. Let alone other "green" projects.

Greens are ****ed in the next election. They wont even announce their results. They wont exist.

@dvpower

Trevor Sargent said that he wouldn't lead the Greens into government with FF and, true to his word, he didn't.

Im reminded of Demolition Man. Cant think why.

@Meditraitor

Saying Labour are identicle to FF is probably the most rediculous(funny also) thing I have heard in this forum, even coming from Sand.......

What if I said they were identical? Would that be rediculous? Would it even be ridiculous? Maybe you could offer comment worth more than 5 seconds effort to laugh at? Christ, lets not even start on the non-contribution you were trying to contribute.

BTW, I remember your handle...would I be ungenerous to consign you to the heap of the usual washed up communist hippies that usually votes for Labour as some sort of public service or did you actually have something independant to say at some point in time?

Anyway, carry on. Vote for Labour for sustained FF public sector wages, sustained FF social welfare and sustained FF tax rates.

Or vote for something realistic. Your call Med.

@Taxipete

First of all a week is a long time in politics never mind two years so its unrealistic to hold someone to their manifesto from 2007 when at that stage we were still doing quite well.

No, we werent doing quite well at that point.

Which is why Labour should never be in government, or where they are should be firmly the junior partners in such government. Either way I accept this is your way of saying you were wrong, and I was right and thats the end of the matter. No worries.

Taxipete29

Sand wrote: »

@Pride Fighter


This is myth tbh, Labour were probably more popular in government after they joined FF than beforehand. How they lost the election in 1997 is one of the great mysteries of Irish politics with the blame being due to A) general incompetence Joan Burtons idiotic musings on fixing the causes of crime versus JoDs infamous "Zero Tolerance" response C) The simple Bertie Ahern factor of a the heartening tale of a bumbling moron who could win the hearts of Ireland at large...in contrast to the general incompetence of FG and Labour.

Gilmore would do a deal with FF tomorrow. FF actually would be more against it, because they still seeth with resentment over the moralising Labour did over them on the last breakup.

FG on the otherhand... I wouldnt say never ever ever, but its a racing certainty they would never go into government with FF, whereas Labour would in a heartbeat. The anti-FF vote is for FG, not for Labour.


@Taxipete


No, we werent doing quite well at that point.

Which is why Labour should never be in government, or where they are should be firmly the junior partners in such government. Either way I accept this is your way of saying you were right, and I was wrong and thats the end of the matter. No worries.

FYP

There is no mystery to why Labour lost that election. They formed a new coalition with FG without going to the country. No mystery at all.

What was the FG manifesto for the 2007 election. I dont remember promises of huge spending cuts? The reason your quouting here for not voting Labour could easily be applied to FG.

Labour made a huge error in 2007 by throwing their lot in with FG. Had they campaigned independantly as they will in the next election, they may of gained the seats neccesary to form a Government with FG. They wont make that mistake again. If you think Labour will enter Government with FF you are more deluded than the FF members who think they will be in a postion to form a Government after the next election.

Enda is just about keeping his own party in line, how is he going to manage to keep a Government in tact. He has support from the party at the moment but alot of it is through gritted teeth. I believe there is alot of unrest in the camp with the way he bungled the announcement about the Seanad.What kind of leader announces a policy change for his party and then takes 4 days to get all his party to publically support him. Hardly the inspirational leadership we will require from our next Taoiseach.

RiverWilde

Who will I vote for?

Mmmmm .... Greens? Not a hope .... they were far too happy to get into bed with the town bike ... god knows what they've been infected with.

FF - just no .... *shudders*

FG - Maybe

Although Labour will get my vote

Sinn Fein can bugger off ... I'll never vote for a party that has links ... however tenuous to murderers.

Riv

dvpower

electrogrimey wrote: »

I agree with the fact that they were going to introduce fees because they needed the money, and that the money has to be found somewhere, but I think third level fees is one of the worst places they could ask for money. Shutting down half of the hundreds of unnecessary bureaucratic institutions FF have set up and are now funding would be one place I'd suggest finding this money, reducing the number of ministers, and reducing their pay, would be another.

This is a bit of a cop out. You say that the money has to be found somewhere, but you don't say from where.

You mention hundreds of unnecessary bureaucratic institutions. Can you put names on them?

Then you fall back on the old reliable cop out; reducing the number of ministers, and reducing their pay. Maybe a good idea on its own merits, but a drop in the ocean in terms of overall expenditure.

Deise Tom

BennyLava wrote: »

Just curious to see how people see themselves voting in the future?

With honest reflection, taking into account all that has happened in the last few years, what political party, if any, you see your self voting for in the future?

probably could do with a poll, but can't add one for some reason.

I will be voting Fianna Fail.

meditraitor

Deise Tom wrote: »

I will be voting Fianna Fail.

At least your honest, most of your fellow FF voters will deny it.... Can I ask why?

Deise Tom

meditraitor wrote: »

At least your honest, most of your fellow FF voters will deny it.... Can I ask why?

Honest answer,

Right now, they might be no fecking good, but they are the best we have. What have the oposition tio offer, Feckin Enda Kenny, Eamon Guilmore and Joan Bruton shouting shyte and waving their hands about, and not able to string a sentance together. At Least with Fianna Fail you know what you are getting, and Brian Cowan has come out and said if he is responsible for the way the country is now, he is responsible. They are not the exact words he used but its the gist of it.

jonsnow

Sand wrote: »

@Pride Fighter


Joan Burtons idiotic musings on fixing the causes of crime versus JoDs infamous "Zero Tolerance" response

To be fair its the irish electorates idiocy that was on display here not joan burtons.Plumbing for a ridiculous soundbite by a complete chancer over a policy which might realistically reduce the crime rates.

meditraitor

Deise Tom wrote: »

Honest answer,

Right now, they might be no fecking good, but they are the best we have. What have the oposition tio offer, Feckin Enda Kenny, Eamon Guilmore and Joan Bruton shouting shyte and waving their hands about, and not able to string a sentance together. At Least with Fianna Fail you know what you are getting, and Brian Cowan has come out and said if he is responsible for the way the country is now, he is responsible. They are not the exact words he used but its the gist of it.

Thanks for the reply
I respect your opinion even if I think it is deluded........... They are not the best we have they are the worst possible(imho). But your honesty is refreshing.

stevensi

I'm living in South Kerry and my vote will be going to John O Donoghue. He's been treated with contempt up in Dublin but he's been fantastic for us down here in South Kerry. I think a lot of people here feel the same.

meditraitor

stevensi wrote: »

I'm living in South Kerry and my vote will be going to John O Donoghue. He's been treated with contempt up in Dublin but he's been fantastic for us down here in South Kerry. I think a lot of people here feel the same.

Again I respect your honesty, admitting your preference for a bloated waster like O'Donoghue must be hard outside of Kerry, but as we have always seen from the kerry electorate this is always the way when they get preferential treatment for voting with their wallet rather than morals.

r0nanf

Deise Tom wrote: »

At Least with Fianna Fail you know what you are getting, and Brian Cowan has come out and said if he is responsible for the way the country is now, he is responsible. They are not the exact words he used but its the gist of it.

If he truly felt he was responsible he would hang his head in shame, and resign. It's a meaningless soundbite.

I know well what we're getting alright with Fianna Fail, and it's a litany of instances of trying to save the party instead of trying to save the country. The only thing that has exercised any kind of action with the Fianna Fail backbenchers since the reversing of the pensioners cuts has been the potential cutting of the drink driving limit. Not the health system, or education cuts. Not the exchequer figures, or Ryan report, or Commission on Taxation, or NAMA, or the continual revelations of cronyism. The f*cking drink driving limit. That's what you get with Fianna Fail - parish politics played by career politicians.

Honestly, if after all this you still believe that they are the "best we have", it's a stark indictment of how little standards we have for our country's politicians, and therefore for ourselves. Shame on us.

ANXIOUS

Finna Fail

jmayo

Deise Tom wrote: »

Honest answer,

Right now, they might be no fecking good, but they are the best we have. What have the oposition tio offer, Feckin Enda Kenny, Eamon Guilmore and Joan Bruton shouting shyte and waving their hands about, and not able to string a sentance together. At Least with Fianna Fail you know what you are getting, and Brian Cowan has come out and said if he is responsible for the way the country is now, he is responsible. They are not the exact words he used but its the gist of it.

To paraphrase...
my parents voted ff, I have always voted ff, I will always vote ff.

Your comment on another thread calling someone recently elected for FG as a blueshirt definetly points to this mindset and I firmly believe it has nothing to do with who you claim are the best at the moment.

stevensi wrote: »

I'm living in South Kerry and my vote will be going to John O Donoghue. He's been treated with contempt up in Dublin but he's been fantastic for us down here in South Kerry. I think a lot of people here feel the same.

No mention of the contempt that he had for the Irish taxpayers as he leeched off us so that he could attend ever freaking major race meeting or not have to bother his big head getting across an airport ?

Next time your kids, or another member of your family, are looking for something the state can't afford to provide, think about how the state paid for the fine restaurants, 5 star hotels, chauffeured limos and executive jets for your fine representative. :rolleyes:

Cloned Alien

stevensi wrote: »

I'm living in South Kerry and my vote will be going to John O Donoghue. He's been treated with contempt up in Dublin but he's been fantastic for us down here in South Kerry. I think a lot of people here feel the same.

Ay yes more of the inbread down there in Kerry. God help us all if all the country is like that.

The only party in ireland today who understand the problems, willing to tackle the problems had as any moral is FG so that is why ill be voting for them.

FF- Enough said
Lab- A trade union dressed as political party no thanks
Greens- Liars and have no backbone
Sinn Fein- Protest party have no real policies
SP/PBP- Far left the policies of the failed
Ind- I would vote for them but no real candidate in Dublin South

electrogrimey

Cloned Alien wrote: »

Ay yes more of the inbread down there in Kerry. God help us all if all the country is like that.

The only party in ireland today who understand the problems, willing to tackle the problems had as any moral is FG so that is why ill be voting for them.

FF- Enough said
Lab- A trade union dressed as political party no thanks
Greens- Liars and have no backbone
Sinn Fein- Protest party have no real policies
SP/PBP- Far left the policies of the failed
Ind- I would vote for them but no real candidate in Dublin South

What about the Socialists?

Cloned Alien

electrogrimey wrote: »

What about the Socialists?

SP= Sociliast party

Deise Tom

meditraitor wrote: »

Thanks for the reply
I respect your opinion even if I think it is deluded........... They are not the best we have they are the worst possible(imho). But your honesty is refreshing.

And thank you for allowing me to say how i feel, even if we dont agree on who is the best of a bad bunch.

electrogrimey

Cloned Alien wrote: »

SP= Sociliast party

Oops, didn't see that.

Deise Tom

r0nanf wrote: »

If he truly felt he was responsible he would hang his head in shame, and resign. It's a meaningless soundbite.

I know well what we're getting alright with Fianna Fail, and it's a litany of instances of trying to save the party instead of trying to save the country. The only thing that has exercised any kind of action with the Fianna Fail backbenchers since the reversing of the pensioners cuts has been the potential cutting of the drink driving limit. Not the health system, or education cuts. Not the exchequer figures, or Ryan report, or Commission on Taxation, or NAMA, or the continual revelations of cronyism. The f*cking drink driving limit. That's what you get with Fianna Fail - parish politics played by career politicians.

Honestly, if after all this you still believe that they are the "best we have", it's a stark indictment of how little standards we have for our country's politicians, and therefore for ourselves. Shame on us.

The night Brian Cowan was on the Late Late he did say that he would stand over any decision he made while minister for finance and he done what he thought was for the best for the people. I have no reason to think he dont anything but for as he said for the best, but somethings did go wrong.

What people must not forget is that the ministers are not necessarly experts in their asigned departments, but those in the departments that are advising them are or at least should be, these faceless people to most of the country are the real reason the country is the way it is. These are people that are on big salaries and bonus' and are the ones that will not be the ones taking the biggest hit come the budget in December. Fianna Fail have made mistakes over the past 12 or 13 years, but so have these faceless people that will be still in a job no matter who is in power now or after the next election .

Deise Tom

Cloned Alien wrote: »

Ind- I would vote for them but no real candidate in Dublin South

There should be at least one in every electorate area.

irish_bob

Deise Tom wrote: »

The night Brian Cowan was on the Late Late he did say that he would stand over any decision he made while minister for finance and he done what he thought was for the best for the people. I have no reason to think he dont anything but for as he said for the best, but somethings did go wrong.

What people must not forget is that the ministers are not necessarly experts in their asigned departments, but those in the departments that are advising them are or at least should be, these faceless people to most of the country are the real reason the country is the way it is. These are people that are on big salaries and bonus' and are the ones that will not be the ones taking the biggest hit come the budget in December. Fianna Fail have made mistakes over the past 12 or 13 years, but so have these faceless people that will be still in a job no matter who is in power now or after the next election .

i bet you believed it was the pd,s who messed up health pre 2007 and the greens who are to blame for all the countrys ills now

electrogrimey

Deise Tom wrote: »

There should be at least one in every electorate area.

Ah but most of them are usually mental, like the uber-christian nut in my constituency with good ones scattered sparsely around the place.

Liam Byrne

stevensi wrote: »

I'm living in South Kerry and my vote will be going to John O Donoghue. He's been treated with contempt up in Dublin but he's been fantastic for us down here in South Kerry. I think a lot of people here feel the same.

He's been treated with contempt in more areas than Dublin, and you know why ?

Because of his unacceptable actions.

In his pathetic speech, he tried to make it a Dublin v Kerry "issue", but in reality that has nothing to do with it.

Deise Tom

irish_bob wrote: »

i bet you believed it was the pd,s who messed up health pre 2007 and the greens who are to blame for all the countrys ills now

Sorry to be the bearer of band news, but i dont.

Deise Tom

electrogrimey wrote: »

Ah but most of them are usually mental, like the uber-christian nut in my constituency with good ones scattered sparsely around the place.

Who would that be.